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07/10/2005 03:27:40 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
To me, to accept fate does not mean at all to give up and to falter. It means, instead, to involve truth and the weather before deciding on a course. |
Well said. |
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07/13/2005 02:13:04 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by The Byno:
don't really understand why this is in a photography website but...I believe there is no such thing as fate. Everything that happens is a direct cause of people's choices...kinda like the Matrix. |
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Following this reasoning then the people who decided to go to work on 9/11 made the choice to select their death.
The choice theory is nice but then who can truly analyse the wheels within wheels and the complex interaction of macrocosm and microcosm. I am not that advance to answer this riddle. |
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07/13/2005 02:41:32 AM · #28 |
It's all about Chaos Theory baby.
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07/13/2005 02:52:03 AM · #29 |
| Chaos is nothing more than the antithesis of fate. |
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07/13/2005 09:53:30 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Following this reasoning then the people who decided to go to work on 9/11 made the choice to select their death.
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oh, it is waaaay too early for this i think, but i can't resist throwing out a couple of thoughts. :)
i agree with your point to an extent, daniel, but i wonder if this is somewhat oversimplifying? we could say that most of us are not psychic, we just live our lives day to day, and hope for the best. as einstein said, " if we had complete knowledge of all the forces concerned, we could (in principle at least) anticipate every twist and turn." but we don't, so essentially, everyday that we choose to leave our house, we take a chance on not returning home, which is certainly our choice...so we leave not because we know what lies ahead of us, but because we choose to just go out and live our lives.
conversely, what about those people whom, for no particular reason, choose to take a different bus or not get on a certain flight, etc. does perahps a certain sixth sense exist, that affects our free will? is it just our subconscious and a willingness to be open to intuition and a change of focus? and if so, why do only a few acknowledge it? and if it does exist for all, are those that repress it choosing to deny their fate, thereby changing their destiny--or is it that those that acknowledge it are denying their fate, thereby changing their destiny? and is there truly only one particular destiny? perhaps parallel destinies or fates? so many questions that barely scratch the surface.
i tend to believe in a sort of combination of fate and free will--that there is a fate, or destiny(s), but that we are free to choose [it] or not. that we have to be aware and open to possibilities and the windows of opportunity...and by our own choices we can make things happen or not, and act with or against our will--or even change it. and that when we do work towards things or put ourselves in certain situations, we never know then what will come out of it, it is only later that we (perhaps) have the chance to see the correlation, as the very nature of randomness assures us that combining random incidents will yield some pattern--even if we don't know in advance what it is.
or something. very quick and unconclusive thoughts, so i think i am basically saying nothing. i definitely need more tea. :)
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07/13/2005 10:09:31 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by joezl:
By exercising our free will we make our own fate.
At work we once had some sort of psychologist run an interesting test. he had a scale from one to 10. 1 was along the lines of "everything is pre-determined and as an individual you have little control over most things" 10 was something like "as an individual you can control or significantly influence almost everything that happens to you and around you" The higher achievers in the group tended to score towards the 8 and 9; the lower achievers towards the 2-3.
I guess my lesson from that was the more you believe in fate, the more you are its victim. Our fate is simply the result of our own choices (OK - maybe only 90% of the time). |
Interesting point, but those high achievers also become completely neurotic as they take responsibility for all the negative things that happen to them which are beyond their control. I believe this topic is called 'locus of control', and the healthiest place to be is around '5' on the '1-10' scale. Of course, if you are taught about this in a work environment, bad management would encourage you to be a '10' person until you burn out and are spat out of the system.
I'm sure you all know the 'serenity' prayer:
'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.'
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07/13/2005 10:20:05 AM · #32 |
Fate? Free will? Don't know, don't care. I just roll with it from day to day. I do my best to make what I can of this life. I don't care if I fail or succeed. I don't care what happens along the way or why. All I care about is that the journey is good.
I wish all of you a good journey.
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07/13/2005 10:41:45 AM · #33 |
I agree with you Alecia. I believe that we live our lives through a combo of fate and free will. I believe that fate only takes us so far, fate puts us in certain situations, and then it is up to us what choices we make. Its almost like the books I read when I was little. You read for a while and then you were given a few choices, once you picked one you turn to page ??? and the story would continue according to your choice.
Fate might have us be at a certain place at a certain time, maybe let us meet our one (soulmate, which is another theory I believe in) but the rest is up to us. I could choose not to talk to her and I would miss my chance or I could talk to her and find my one true love in her. If I don't talk to her and we are meant to be together then fate might put us in another time and place to meet again or I could have just blown my chance. Fate can be mean or it can be wonderful.
I don't feel that you can rely on fate to just hand you things, material or otherwise. Fate give you choices and it is up to you as to the outcome(free will), to a point. I say to a point because I believe we were put on this earth for a purpose, we may never know what that purpose is but its there and fate just leads you in the right direction.
By the way, I have met my soulmate and there is not one doubt in my mind that she is my one and I am hers. |
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07/13/2005 04:19:07 PM · #34 |
| Jeeze that it? I realize this post was a few days ago but I thought this was a very good topic to talk about. |
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07/13/2005 06:02:03 PM · #35 |
Life a series of decisions that form the course of our lives. Fate is what we use to turn around and classify those events. Fate is a word, I believe, we use to detach from the responsibility of decision.
Fate - The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The only what I can think of fate as a reality of that definition is if God shapes our lives through his will. If his will is forced upon ourlives and we want to call it fate so be it. |
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07/13/2005 07:23:07 PM · #36 |
I am really mixed up about this! My head tells me that Fate is a ridiculous idea and can't possibly be true yet I really do think that some things are meant to happen. We as a family have taken quite a few chances with life changing decisions. Each time the path we went along brought about changes we didn't expect but they turned out well for us and in turn opened up another series of choice. OK so that was just our free will - until a medium (psychic) - told me about things that would happen that I thought were impossible and lo and behold they happened. And I don't mean events that you could predict!
So I just don't know! Half of me thinks it would be safe and comforting to think everything was mapped out to some degree and the other half thinks that it is terrible to have no say in the matter!
Confused of Ripon ( English joke!)
:)
P |
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07/13/2005 07:36:29 PM · #37 |
| It is my fate to have a free will. |
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07/13/2005 07:51:47 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
...Fate is a word, I believe, we use to detach from the responsibility of decision.
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Couldn't have said it any better.
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07/13/2005 08:26:20 PM · #39 |
Such simplicity will not fly. Again, consider, you step out the house and you step on an insect. Ponder: where else could that insect have been at that exact moment in time if not underneath your feet.
We all know these stories: a man decides to quit smoking to prolong his life and a bus gets him the next moment. We feel that we are the pilot of our lives but sometimes the raging storms have a tendency to overtake our best and strongest effort. Yes, I am well aware of perseverence and how we can invite good changes in our lives. However, we are a part of a bigger pattern called providence.
The wise men have pondered this topic but to no avail because we do not really know that which life has stored for us. To say that we make our own life is true to an extent, but we soon see the limitations. Some argue that whichever way you turn is the path of destiny and that we kid ourselves into thinking that we control the flow and juices of a twisting merry go round called creation. Others argue that we are indeed capable to affectuate conscious changes if we accept our role that ours is a very limited choice.
Others argue that some seek their fortune and lifestyle while others dismiss this by saying that each member of our race fulfils in accordance with some blue print stamped at birth.
It is a complex creation that is so intricate. Consider the following:
Look at our size and look at that of an ant. Amazing. The ant has enough abilities to seek its existence. But look further at the world of life in a small puddle. Paramiciums and other life forms swims here.
Go further and look at bacteria. Look at how they invade your bodies. I mean this is a life form that defies logic. Well, all this reduction may even spell smaller worlds. They, like you are subject to a bigger clock. To bigger mutations and bigger designs. It is truly a wonder. Look at the magic of a lighting bug. The impossible flight of the bumble bee.
I am not trying to introduce anything but a bigger picture of which we are a part. We do not know if we will be breathing tomorrow nor do we know when we will take our last breath.
I for one, confess that I can not codify all of this information into one theory nor can I surmize a definite answer to destiny, fate or free will. I am humbled and because I think, I do not take this to mean that I am a self contained unit that can live separated from the forces that shape me. I just can not rise above them. The wise man cannot and what arrogance would give me the belief that definte answers are within my grasp. |
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07/14/2005 11:29:21 AM · #40 |
When I say that life is a series of decisions. I do not mean that we control every element of sensory in and out. We do have to decided what to do with those experiences.
Just because the Ant made the decision to be on the step and I decided to leave the house at the same time, does not mean it was the fate of the ant to die. Two decisions were made that put us in the same area and thus result and consequence. The same can be said about a bus driver hitting a pedestrian walking down the street. The driver was what? Looking down because he heard a noise. The pedestrian was listening to a MP3 player and didn't look both ways. Those are both decision made by the individuals that cause results and consequences.
Just because the "chance" of that event occuring is high does not mean that it was "fate". Again, I think fate in bus situation is an excuse made by parties to take away from the responsibility of the situation. Yes its sad and tragic, but its far from fate.
Now, the concept of how we see our world I agree with you on. Yes, an ant is a small piece of our world and we are a small piece of a much larger world. We all have the free will to make decisions that are going to cause influence. I am humbled by the sheer size and fluid nature of how our world operates. It is amazing that we function the way we do, but I am not going to chalk anything up to fate. Where I get fuzzy is the God element introduced into free will, yet he already knows the pages of our lives. I would still not call a God controlled life fate.
You did make me think and I appreciate any thought provoking dialogue. Thanks Graphicfunk! |
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07/14/2005 11:43:51 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
It's all about Chaos Theory baby. |
Chaos & Fractals.
IMO, what people might call fate is merely the effect of the free will of others, or themselves.
"Back off man, I'm a scientist!" (favourite line from Ghostbusters)
:-P
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07/14/2005 12:20:42 PM · #42 |
My entire argument here is that I do not know nor do I wish to form an opinion because I do not have reliable information. We are very different from everything else in creation. We are aware of our mortality and when our time comes to inhale our last breath, no decision on our part will make the outcome different because we are slave to the clay that binds us and whatever its design is. Nobody escapes earth alive.
When I speak about the ant and the human foot, I am not talking about what decisions or motives brought them together at the moment. I am asking where else in the marrix of time and space could these two units be if not exactly there. There is a phenomena governed by space and time.
It is very easy to examine some facts and then to build a paradign to explain behaviour, but our history logs are filled with countless theories that answer some but not all.
Well, there are forces that exists even beyond our comprehension. The little information we gather pales with the larger picture. So yes, each of us, if asked how would you like to die: knowing or not knowing the forces that bring about our demise. Most inquiring minds would prefer to know.
A very big picture and perhaps too big for us to ponder. Take the mind as an example. On its very center is a single identity point known as the ego. Yet, this little identity point has a wild propensity to blanket the entire mind and create a make believe world of which this ego is the very center. A blindness to the external takes place and this ego inflates and inflates and dares to think that it knows and that it understand.
All of the above is okay provided there is an internal check known as humbledness. Once we throw it overboard the ego rises and blinds our reason.
As we think, neurons fire inside our brain, the humble consider this a wonder while the arrogant consider it a natural electrical consequence. |
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07/14/2005 06:41:10 PM · #43 |
"fate vs free will" or per the loooong paper written in college (30+ years ago)....Free Will vs. Pre-determinism. It is the classic discourse of whether one has choice or is merely fullfilling a pre-determined destiny. A series of pre-planned events that ultimately result in what was determined to be the case anyway.
For one to believe in pre-determinism (fate) then one essentially surrenders all ownership in their failure or success and thus could argue that they are not responsible for any mishap. It was simply "fate" playing out its hand. Murderer's would not be responsible for their actions as it was "pre-determined" that those actions would come to pass in that particular manner, by those particular participants and victims. No course or choices made could have altered it. It is what it is, as it has been destined to be, and no intervention of any kind by anyone/entity, can change the course. This "pre-deterministic" mindset, in my opinion, would negate a person ever needing or believing in things like hope and prayer.
It seems to me, that pre-determinists would not see a need to expend any effort to help their fellow man, as they could claim that is is "fate" that has caused that misfortune, therefore, leave it as it is. Meaning that those suffering rape and slaughter in Darfur at the hands of the Janjaweed, should be left to their misery as it was pre-determined that this inhumane action was theirs to fulfill.
It also seems to me that pre-determinists would have a hard time with the existence of "God" as in the concepts promoted by Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam. If all action was pre-determined, then there would be no need for prayer, as intercession on one's behalf, by a supremem power would be un-necessary, as the supreme power had already determined what would and would not take place. Prayer would be futile, and hope through prayer would be ignorance.
Because I CHOOSE to believe that I am responsible for my actions, decided upon through my reasonings, considerations, and experience, then I must believe in free will. I believe that "God" can change the course of events, by his choice and/or through prayer. I believe that one must choose to accept their savior and that those selected for admittance is NOT pre-determined. I believe that my "choices" through out my life will lead to a destination of my making, whether that destinaion is good or bad. I believe that I have a choice regarding committing evil and horrendous acts against man (like the recent UK bombings). I believe that that "choice" is evidence (for me) that free will exists. Therefore, I side on the side of free will.
Flash
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07/15/2005 10:42:16 PM · #44 |
Isn't anyone going to post the counter argument; that if "God" is all knowing, then by definition life is pre-determined...as "God" knows what decisons you will make, so all decisions are "pre-determined".
Therefore, pre-determinism (fate) is the true reality.
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07/15/2005 11:31:53 PM · #45 |
Predestination says all results are written in the book before they happen. Free will says we write the book ourselves. If the former, it's a closed book; no man, prophets or seers aside, can read the book beyond the current page as it is revealed. If the latter, there's nothing to read until the thing is done and the "fate" is sealed by action/result.
Between these two conditions, the choice seems clear to me: act as if I am in control of my "fate", and accept the results of my actions and move on until I die.
Predestination and "fate", however, are not the same thing. Predestination is a microconcept, "fate" is a macroconcept. Predestination extends downward past the molecular level, so to speak; "fate" is essentially a term of art. If I say, "I was fated to lose this race" I am not so much saying there is a grand design guiding my fate as I am saying that there was no realistic chance I could beat Daniel in the race...
These are interesting concepts to ponder, but IMO of little practical value. I wake, I act, I sleep, I repeat, and then I die. It's all I know.
The wise man studies what he must forget.
The happy man remembers not to learn.
The way of each is water over stones ΓΆ€”
We travel in pain. We die.
There is no other road.
Robt.
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07/16/2005 12:17:46 AM · #46 |
Whether free will actually exists is an unprovable proposition.
There is much reason to think that believing in free will causes us to behave differently. Our whole notion of law and punishment presupposes the existence of free will. If it presupposed otherwise we would have very different laws, very different punishments, very different attitudes, and very different behaviors. Perhaps no laws or punishments at all. I believe that it is necessary that post agricultural humans societies believe in free will if they are to reward good behaviors and punish bad behaviors (whatever these actually turn out to be) systematically and fairly.
Predestination is still a possibility. It could be that our beliefs, our personal histories, and our circumstances completely determine every minute aspect of our mental life. Every thought and act might be inevitable. The seemingly random process that we imagine introduce chance into mental processes may not be random. And random chance, it it exists in mental processes, may not explain free will.
The fact that science uses random variables to describe complicated systems does not necessarily mean that they are, in fact, random. It just means that it is easier to understand them quantitatively - to model them - as if they were random. In this sense, then, it is entirely possible that the cosmos is just a very complicated machine whose every state is completely determined by the initial conditions at its creation. The creative force might have forseen all the future conditions. Or maybe all of history is just a sort of simulation on a grand scale. Perhaps God created us in a way that would cause certain societies to embrace the idea of free will so that they might in turn create the whole concept of rule of law.
My own belief is that the amount of free will we have is vanishingly small. But perhaps it is not identically zero. I have to fight very hard not to view people who believe they control everything to be delusional megalomaniacs.
As a practical matter, I sort of agree with bear_music. I wake, I eat, I act, I sleep. And then I die. The art of life lies in choosing a good path, and enjoying whatever small satisfactions one makes, shares, or finds along it.
Steve
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07/16/2005 12:31:51 AM · #47 |
And so I bring this to rest. I have seen and studied both points of view but I still lack information to form a definite belief system. After all, we do live according to what we believe and how do we know that what we believe is the true light?
I will let the wiser decide. I take my breath of life and go on about my way. The way of the agnostic. |
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07/16/2005 01:01:39 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
And so I bring this to rest. I have seen and studied both points of view but I still lack information to form a definite belief system. After all, we do live according to what we believe and how do we know that what we believe is the true light?
I will let the wiser decide. I take my breath of life and go on about my way. The way of the agnostic. |
Essentially exactly what I am expressing. Lovely to see us in complete agreeement on something :-)
R.
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07/16/2005 06:41:08 PM · #49 |
Hey Robert: First, I love your screen name, Bear music. I like your photography and I also like when you place yourself on a limb to present an image. I do this too. I do believe that we have more in common than not.
Now, my last excursion: In the beginning mankinds first concern is survival. Once evolution takes its toll, societies are born. These societies give birth to idle time. Here, forgetting the past, the human begins to enter a mental expansion. There is a propensity to codify, record and collect information. That promordial existence is now replaced with certain comforts. It is from here that we seek to explore. However, the external is filled with so much wonder that we often overlook that one wonder that looks and examines. That concept known as consciousnes. The "I" overtakes it and intoxicates us into believing that we are king of our domain and therefore that the path we follow is the right. In truth, we know very little yet we are too quick to entertain the folly that we truly understand. We then pass a mirror and catch a glance of our eyes looking back at us and we have stop to wonder, who is that? and what is that? Yes, yes, I know it is me, but really who am I? LMAO. |
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07/16/2005 08:35:29 PM · #50 |
Fate is the external observation of free will in action.
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