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Showing posts 26 - 45 of 45, (reverse)
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07/04/2005 04:49:09 PM · #26
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by xion:

You can use a dust reference file from the camera and and use Nikon Editor.


Unfortunately, using a dust reference file equates to using data from mutiple images, if I interpret the nature of the dust reference file accurately.
Additionally, even though done automatically, the actions of Nikon Editor to remove specific spots are still spot editing, same as if you were to select them based on some criteria and replace them with surrounding color.

Then how can NeatImage be legal? Particularly when used with a profile created from the 'noise signiture' of several calibration shots to make it specific for one particular camera (and setting), or even if more generic profiles are downloaded and used.

David
07/04/2005 04:59:51 PM · #27
Originally posted by Britannica:

Then how can NeatImage be legal? Particularly when used with a profile created from the 'noise signiture' of several calibration shots to make it specific for one particular camera (and setting), or even if more generic profiles are downloaded and used.

David


Different situation. NeatImage acts on the entire image; it can use an external "profile" but this just stores statistical data about the characteristics of the noise, not any pixel data, nor does it use this information to make a selection.
07/04/2005 05:42:10 PM · #28
That program is a HYPOTHETICAL one. I'm not saying anyone will ever make it. But you do see what I'm saying. Certainly, sometimes I will be able to pick out a photographer by the style, but you can see my point, can you not?

If I know that someone has a certain speck of dust in a certain spot on their sensor, it would be easy to recognize them.

Truthfully, how is re-composing (through cropping) any different than changing a piece of dust? Think about it. Well, hopefully when I get one, it will be toward the corner of my CCD and I can crop it out...or on one of the 'third lines' and I'll just add a super dee duper border.

--

What issues are there with making it legal? Can someone please explain to help me better understand the issue at hand? Please don't point me in the direction of an alread-existing thread. I'd rather keep the debate here.

Like I've already said, photographic integrity is one thing. I realize we are trying to preserve that to its fullest extent in basic editing challenges, but the reasons I've mentioned before (see earlier in the thread) seem to journey far far away from photographic integrity, much more so, then removing a minute, possibly-identifying speck of dust.

One more thing -- cheaters will be cheaters. Those of us who take pride in this site, and our works, will not find a way around the system. I see no problem from wording it specifically to give the photographer distinct rules on the matter. But for all of our sakes, can we not just allow dust specks to be cloned or healing brushed out???
07/04/2005 05:47:34 PM · #29
The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is. We've made that a difference between the open and member-only challenges, partly to encourage membership.
07/04/2005 05:50:24 PM · #30
keep the rules as they are...someone will always bitch about something (including me) whether you change them or not ; )
07/04/2005 05:52:12 PM · #31
Based on this thread, there was some extended SC discussion on the matter. Although it seems a sensible change, and has a lot of support in the community, it does change the very nature of basic editing, in that it steps away from the
"absolutely no spot editing" nature of that ruleset. As more and more of the community upgrade to DSLR, it is becoming a significantly larger issue, and one that does need to be revisited.
07/04/2005 05:55:27 PM · #32
Originally posted by GeneralE:

The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is.


So the SC is too busy to make that decision? How long does it take? Have a special message board just for SC, that only they can view. Put up a topic that says "Remove dust in basic editing" have them type in YES or NO. After a week's time, see which one wins.

Saying that it's to encourage membership is slightly absurd in my opinion. The reason to join is because you get double the challenges to enter -- or you're two times more likely to like a challenge in the current week's runnings.

How about this proposal then...
PAID Members will be allowed to clone dust specks from basic challenges.

There you go -- even more incentive to join now.
07/04/2005 05:57:18 PM · #33
Originally posted by deapee:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is.


So the SC is too busy to make that decision? How long does it take? Have a special message board just for SC, that only they can view. Put up a topic that says "Remove dust in basic editing" have them type in YES or NO. After a week's time, see which one wins.

Saying that it's to encourage membership is slightly absurd in my opinion. The reason to join is because you get double the challenges to enter -- or you're two times more likely to like a challenge in the current week's runnings.

How about this proposal then...
PAID Members will be allowed to clone dust specks from basic challenges.

There you go -- even more incentive to join now.


someone seems to have a hormone imbalance
07/04/2005 05:59:05 PM · #34
Originally posted by deapee:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is.


So the SC is too busy to make that decision? How long does it take? Have a special message board just for SC, that only they can view.


I don't think he was talking about the decision to allow it, but the subjectivity in voting for each individual photo that contains spot editing.
07/04/2005 06:01:04 PM · #35
Originally posted by northrop3:

I know it would be a nightmare in terms of enforcement, but I would like to have the ability to deal with sensor spots and dust effectively in a basic challenge.

Fixing dust & spots doesn't really feel like advanced editing to me. Not really in the same category as altering the look via filters & such.

Just my two cents..


I AGREE 100%
07/04/2005 06:12:39 PM · #36
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by deapee:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is.


So the SC is too busy to make that decision? How long does it take? Have a special message board just for SC, that only they can view.


I don't think he was talking about the decision to allow it, but the subjectivity in voting for each individual photo that contains spot editing.

... and the (maybe huge) additional number of photos we'd be called on to review because someone suspected spot-editing -- we'd have to validate every entry where the photographer admists to cloning out dust, to make sure that's all it was.

I just don't see it as a huge problem, maybe because none of my lenses come off. And you can always choose to only enter the Advanced challenges where it doesn't matter.
07/04/2005 06:37:28 PM · #37
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by deapee:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

The only reasonably-enforcable rule on spot-editing is a yes/no one -- the SC has far too many subjective decisions to make as it is.


So the SC is too busy to make that decision? How long does it take? Have a special message board just for SC, that only they can view.


I don't think he was talking about the decision to allow it, but the subjectivity in voting for each individual photo that contains spot editing.

... and the (maybe huge) additional number of photos we'd be called on to review because someone suspected spot-editing -- we'd have to validate every entry where the photographer admists to cloning out dust, to make sure that's all it was.

I just don't see it as a huge problem, maybe because none of my lenses come off. And you can always choose to only enter the Advanced challenges where it doesn't matter.


I just feel that allot of the registered users "including myself" have not entered the open challenges because we can not clone sensor dust!
07/04/2005 08:26:50 PM · #38
The way to deal with sensor dust in Basic challenges is to learn how to clean your sensor and how to keep it clean. Consider learning how to do this to be just like learning any other technique that helps you to produce better images. Sensor dust should never become an identifying mark unless the photog does not keep their equipment clean.

As more of the community becomes aware of the spots sensor dust can cause on images and learns what they look like, we are learning to disregard them while voting in the Basic challenges.

This point was heavily debated at the time the Advanced rules were adopted. I see nothing new that would require changing the decision made at that time.

07/04/2005 09:31:41 PM · #39
Originally posted by kirbic:

The NeatImage route is one option, but applied aggressively enough to redue/eliminate dust spots will result in a "plastic" look and loss of detail.
Hiding the dust through added noise (legal in basic) is another dubious solution.
The best you can do is try to minimize the appearance of the dust through control of saturation and contrast (don't increase them so far that you emphasize it).

Actually, the best way to reduce dust is to notice it in the first place, get rid of it and reshoot.

Message edited by author 2005-07-04 21:34:08.
07/04/2005 10:31:36 PM · #40
Originally posted by coolhar:

The way to deal with sensor dust in Basic challenges is to learn how to clean your sensor and how to keep it clean. ...

You spoke my thoughts exactly. :D

There is far too much emphasis on 'fixing' the image after it's taken. From dust spots to color balance, from exposure to framing (crop it), there just doesn't seem to be much concern about the act of making the exposure. :(

David
07/04/2005 11:01:02 PM · #41
Originally posted by coolhar:

The way to deal with sensor dust in Basic challenges is to learn how to clean your sensor and how to keep it clean.


I couldn't disagree with you more, and I'll explain why. Sensor dust is part of the Digital SLR world. No doubt, you're going to get it. In fact, you're probably going to acquire a good bit before you really *should* do something about it.

I'm not going to clean my sensor every week just because I want to enter DPChallenge's basic editing challenges. I don't see a point. If you choose to keep your sensor clean, and you like the way it currently is, then I must say, you are in the minority. Quite possibly not of the entire site, but of those paid members with DSLR's, you are in the minority.

Just bring it to a vote is all I'm asking.
07/04/2005 11:02:04 PM · #42
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Actually, the best way to reduce dust is to notice it in the first place, get rid of it and reshoot.


Dust comes up in spite of regular cleaning. One lens change in the field and you can have a spot of dust. You can have a spot of dust even without a lens change just by dislodging a speck alreading inside the camera - a common problem in DSLR's.
As for seeing the dust and reshooting, that all sounds fine, but zooming and panning each shot on location is hardly an option. Plus, your ability to see specks on a sunny day, even zoomed up, would be dubious.
When you move into a DSLR, you will understand.

Bill
07/04/2005 11:09:10 PM · #43
Originally posted by fotoshootme:


someone seems to have a hormone imbalance


Me..........snorting and laughing.... and soon to be cleaning his monitor... We are past the hehehehee stage and now into full blown guffaws....... This is too funny.

Touche Ms fotoshootmel.... rock on.

Ray
07/04/2005 11:53:19 PM · #44
i think we are making too big a deal about this... i mean a few spots on your image arent going to affect placement/scoring a whole lot. My monitor that i use for voting is filthy and spotted all over, i wouldnt be able to tell if the spots i was seeing where from it or the image. Most times i just disreagard little things that dont affect the image whatsoever in my opinion.

If you are hyper self-concious about your spots then keep your sensor clean, if you reach a point where you are having to clean your sensor for every basic editing challenge then you must be doing something very very wrong.

My 2 cents
07/05/2005 12:56:48 AM · #45
Originally posted by Gatorguy:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Actually, the best way to reduce dust is to notice it in the first place, get rid of it and reshoot.


Dust comes up in spite of regular cleaning. One lens change in the field and you can have a spot of dust.


Could not agree with you more!
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