|
| Author | Thread |
|
|
06/29/2005 12:45:27 PM · #1 |
Hi,
I just got a hotshoe mount flash. I have never used flash before. I started "learning" on my Canon 10D how to use manual settings, but never learned how to use it with flash. I was surprised that when I put my flash on my camera (and I have a flash bracket to hold it above the camera), the manual settings dont take that into account. It makes me set my aperture and shutter speed like I normally would, but then the flash goes off. It isnt over exposed, but I thought having a flash would allow me to shoot in lower light situations... I guess I thought that I would be able to be in lower light situations without needed a tripod for slower shutter speeds if I had a flash. But, unless I am doing it wrong, that isnt the case. I had to set my camera settings as though there was no flash, and then take the picture. The flash did compensate for my setting and didnt over expose the shot, but what is the benefit?
Anyway, my question is this: How the heck do I use the flash in manual setting? Do you normally use it in auto settings when using a flash? (takes away the creativity). Did I totally waste my money? I bought one because I saw a professional wedding photographer have one (and it was on a bracket) and they didnt use a tripod when I DID. (in the same situation). Do you think they were in auto mode??
HELP!!!!!!!
Jen |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 12:55:51 PM · #2 |
Well, I have a 580ex and i don't see a problem using it handheld with low light situations, the camera can sync with it at up to 1/200s, and u can use it with high-speed sync, for fill flash, for example.
I'm not sure if that's what u're asking but, do you get blurry photos, over-under exposed photos? I quite didn't get a hold of what u were talking about......
The manual setting (according to what I know) are used for when you want more/less power (how much of the scene you want to expose).
The flash itself transmits the info to the camera, to get the correct exposure, if in auto mode! but then if you need to use it in manual, you'll have to know if the distance u're from the subject is enough to light it correctly, and not over-under expose it (if that's not a desired effect, low key or kigh key photos)
Did I just lose myself in this post?!? Is it "understandable"?
Message edited by author 2005-06-29 12:57:25. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:03:30 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by scuds:
Well, I have a 580ex and i don't see a problem using it handheld with low light situations, the camera can sync with it at up to 1/200s, and u can use it with high-speed sync, for fill flash, for example.
I'm not sure if that's what u're asking but, do you get blurry photos, over-under exposed photos? I quite didn't get a hold of what u were talking about......
The manual setting (according to what I know) are used for when you want more/less power (how much of the scene you want to expose).
The flash itself transmits the info to the camera, to get the correct exposure, if in auto mode! but then if you need to use it in manual, you'll have to know if the distance u're from the subject is enough to light it correctly, and not over-under expose it (if that's not a desired effect, low key or kigh key photos)
Did I just lose myself in this post?!? Is it "understandable"? |
Huh?...
Now i know why i haven´t got a flash.
Is there any site to learn the basics about flashes? |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:05:43 PM · #4 |
Jen, what model flash do you have? If it's a Canon 420ex, 520ex, or 580ex, it can detect the camera's settings and set the flash output accordingly - depending on how you have the flash itself set. There are a number of variables here, but, first, let us know what flash model you have..
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:16:27 PM · #5 |
| in manual mode, the camera doesn't know if you want to use the flash for fill or for the main light source. If you close down the aperature, or increase the shutter speed - the flash should still compensate to properly illuminate the scene. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:50:21 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by hopper:
in manual mode, the camera doesn't know if you want to use the flash for fill or for the main light source. If you close down the aperature, or increase the shutter speed - the flash should still compensate to properly illuminate the scene. |
Not in manual mode I think, cz you set the the power by hand! |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:51:43 PM · #7 |
I actually have the promaster 5750DX which I was told performed like the 550ex in that it is TTL and will compensate according to the settings. My photos were not overexposed, it DID do that. I dont know how to ask my questions.... maybe like this: There is a difference in settings when you are in shade or full sun. I thought that when I put a flash on my camera, my camera would understand that IT would be producing light, and would allow me to use a faster shutter speed than if there were no flash at all. However, with my camera, I have to take my meter readings, set my settings, and they are the same settings that my camera would have given (for correct exposure)if I had no flash on the camera at all. In other words, it didnt benefit me to have a flash, because when I was inside the house, it was dim light, and the settings on my camera still required that I use a tripod for the shot. I thought if I had a flash, the camera would take that into consideration when I was choosing my settings (for DOF or speed) and I wouldn't have needed a tripod because the camera would have accounted for the extra light that the flash put out. The meter reading on my camera provided me with the exact same settings (in the exact same situation) without the flash as it did WITH the flash. So, why use a flash?
When I said manual settings, I meant on my camera, not the settings on my flash
Does this make sense?
I guess a more basic question might be this, when using a hotshoe flash, do you generally put your camera on auto?
Jen |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 01:53:21 PM · #8 |
420EX and the 300d don't have manual power settings (unless hacked), so perhaps i'm only describing this situation (or perhaps i'm wrong).
Originally posted by scuds:
Originally posted by hopper:
in manual mode, the camera doesn't know if you want to use the flash for fill or for the main light source. If you close down the aperature, or increase the shutter speed - the flash should still compensate to properly illuminate the scene. |
Not in manual mode I think, cz you set the the power by hand! |
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:11:11 PM · #9 |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:23:08 PM · #10 |
I don't know anything at all about the flash unit you have, but normally with an e-TTL flash unit on, say, a 10D, the camera's settings do not change. Rather, the camera meters as if there were no flash attached and when the picture is taken, the flash unit acts to fill in the shadows.
If you want to use the flash as the only source of light, then in manual mode on the camera, set a desired shutter/aperture combination (say f5.6 and 1/60th sec for example) and between them, the camera and flash will ensure that enough light is output to expose the scene correctly, given that the flash is powerful enough.
Using manual mode in this way, the settings can be adjusted with practice, so that different balances between available light exposure and flash exposure can be obtained.
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:27:11 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Juniper366:
I actually have the promaster 5750DX which I was told performed like the 550ex in that it is TTL and will compensate according to the settings. My photos were not overexposed, it DID do that. I dont know how to ask my questions.... maybe like this: There is a difference in settings when you are in shade or full sun. I thought that when I put a flash on my camera, my camera would understand that IT would be producing light, and would allow me to use a faster shutter speed than if there were no flash at all. However, with my camera, I have to take my meter readings, set my settings, and they are the same settings that my camera would have given (for correct exposure)if I had no flash on the camera at all. In other words, it didnt benefit me to have a flash, because when I was inside the house, it was dim light, and the settings on my camera still required that I use a tripod for the shot. I thought if I had a flash, the camera would take that into consideration when I was choosing my settings (for DOF or speed) and I wouldn't have needed a tripod because the camera would have accounted for the extra light that the flash put out. The meter reading on my camera provided me with the exact same settings (in the exact same situation) without the flash as it did WITH the flash. So, why use a flash?
When I said manual settings, I meant on my camera, not the settings on my flash
Does this make sense?
I guess a more basic question might be this, when using a hotshoe flash, do you generally put your camera on auto?
Jen |
Ohhhh i quite got it now, but I'm not so sure if what I'm about to say is correct.
As you said, you have ur camera on manual right? So the flash itself might be doing the readings correctly, but u have your camera set for a slower shutter speed. What happens then, as the shutter is set for a slower speed, more light will hit the sensor, so the flash diminishes it's power, so it won't get overexposed. Try setting ur camera for one of the creative zones, either AV or TV. Have a large aperture, allowing the camera to get a faster shutter speed, or select a higher shuter speed (1/200) allowing the camera to set the aperture. the flash will do the readings then, and you'1l be able to get a correct exposure, allied with a non-blurred image (no tripod required). It might also be that you have your flash set for second-curtain, leaving those light-trails (is that what happens?).
Try to use it with the maximum speeed sync for the 10d (i think it's also 1/200 as the rebel XT), I'm sure you'll get the image you want!
Message edited by author 2005-06-29 14:28:55. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:27:36 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Juniper366:
I guess I thought that I would be able to be in lower light situations without needed a tripod for slower shutter speeds if I had a flash. But, unless I am doing it wrong, that isnt the case. |
Jen, here's the short answer: you're doing it wrong.
:-) |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:35:33 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by AJAger:
I don't know anything at all about the flash unit you have, but normally with an e-TTL flash unit on, say, a 10D, the camera's settings do not change. Rather, the camera meters as if there were no flash attached and when the picture is taken, the flash unit acts to fill in the shadows.
If you want to use the flash as the only source of light, then in manual mode on the camera, set a desired shutter/aperture combination (say f5.6 and 1/60th sec for example) and between them, the camera and flash will ensure that enough light is output to expose the scene correctly, given that the flash is powerful enough.
Using manual mode in this way, the settings can be adjusted with practice, so that different balances between available light exposure and flash exposure can be obtained. |
I think AJ is getting close to your answer Jen. I had the same question you're wrestling with. How do you use your camera in manual mode and then get the flash to fill in for the fact that you're shooting in low light. I thought that by composing in aperature mode, the camera would adjust to fact that I have a flash on, and set a higher shutter speed. But the camera doesn't do that.
So if someone could expand on AJ's post and give both Jen and me a quick how to on using a flash in manual mode, I sure would appreciate it as well. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:36:12 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by scuds:
Ohhhh i quite got it now, but I'm not so sure if what I'm about to say is correct.
As you said, you have ur camera on manual right? So the flash itself might be doing the readings correctly, but u have your camera set for a slower shutter speed. What happens then, as the shutter is set for a slower speed, more light will hit the sensor, so the flash diminishes it's power, so it won't get overexposed. Try setting ur camera for one of the creative zones, either AV or TV. Have a large aperture, allowing the camera to get a faster shutter speed, or select a higher shuter speed (1/200) allowing the camera to set the aperture. the flash will do the readings then, and you'1l be able to get a correct exposure, allied with a non-blirred image (no tripod required). It might also be that you have your flash set for second-curtain, leaving those light-trails (is that what happens?).
Try to use it with the maximum speeed sync for the 10d (i think it's also 1/220 as the rebel XT), I'm sure you'll get the image you want! |
I think that if you use Av or Tv modes, the camera still meters and calculates the exposure as if there were no flash attached and may call for a very long exposure. Manual mode, I believe, gives more control in that the user can 'force' the flash to be the main or, indeed, only source of illumination. I think that 'P' mode may be worth a go in the short term as I believe that makes it really simple to get flash shots in low light, as it seems to generally set a wide aperture and a shutter speed of 1/60, so as to give a good exposue by the flash unit
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:47:57 PM · #15 |
I think AJ pretty much nailed it. The flash will automatically compensate it's output to properly illuminate the scene, no matter what you set the exposure values to in manual mode (within the limits of the flash, that is).
Originally posted by ReallyColorBlind:
So if someone could expand on AJ's post and give both Jen and me a quick how to on using a flash in manual mode, I sure would appreciate it as well. |
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 02:57:33 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ReallyColorBlind:
I had the same question you're wrestling with. How do you use your camera in manual mode and then get the flash to fill in for the fact that you're shooting in low light. I thought that by composing in aperature mode, the camera would adjust to fact that I have a flash on, and set a higher shutter speed. But the camera doesn't do that.
So if someone could expand on AJ's post and give both Jen and me a quick how to on using a flash in manual mode, I sure would appreciate it as well. |
I'm far from being expert here, but I'll have a go.
First, if you have time, follow the link above in TechnoShroom's post. A lot to take in, but dip into it.
Generally, when using an external flash, there can be considered to be two sources of light that the photographer is working with: available light and flash illumination. Without a flash at all, the camera must use the available light to expose the shot correctly and this may involve a long exposure. One thing to bear in mind is that the duration of the flash is very brief (much, much shorter than the exposure time), so the shutter speed does not affect the flash exposure (if one is using a fixed-output flash, then the flash exposure would be controlled by the aperture setting). The shutter speed does, however, play a major part in controlling the exposure due to available light. As an e-TTL flash will act to illuminate the scene correctly, the shutter speed chosen can vary greatly the finished look of the photo. A longer exposure with flash will ensure that the available light will illuminate the background, with the flash illuminating the subject. At shorter exposures, the flash will illuminate the subject and the background will be dark, as the exposure will be too short to expose it correctly. The photographer can change shutter speeds, so as to go between these two extremes.
Bear in mind that the camera meters as if no flash were attached (up to a point), so that it will attempt to gain an exposure using available light, automatically. Using P mode, the camera acts a little more as I believe you were hoping that it would.
In manual mode, the photographer can set a suitable aperture (not too narrow or the flash might not have enough power, try perhaps 5.6 - 8) and then set the shutter speed for the desired effect. Try, for instance, metering in manual mode and setting your exposure, say two stops under and looking at the effect, then try at one stop under. Experimentation seems to be the key.
In bright light, e-TTL flash will act as 'fill' and, as it says, fill in shadows. It does this automatically, as the system meters as before; as if there were no flash unit mounted and the flash provides a little 'extra'. Again, experimentation is the key, as the maximum shutter speed that can normally be used with an external flash is 1/200s.
I hope that I have made a bit of sense here, but I dashed this off before I have to run out to work.
Don't forget - experiment for yourself.
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:06:39 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by AJAger:
I think that if you use Av or Tv modes, the camera still meters and calculates the exposure as if there were no flash attached and may call for a very long exposure. Manual mode, I believe, gives more control in that the user can 'force' the flash to be the main or, indeed, only source of illumination. I think that 'P' mode may be worth a go in the short term as I believe that makes it really simple to get flash shots in low light, as it seems to generally set a wide aperture and a shutter speed of 1/60, so as to give a good exposue by the flash unit |
But then, with the low shutter speed, allowing more light into the sensor, the flash would fire at a lower capacity, looking for the correct exposure (according to the camera settings), but still requiring a steadier hand, or a tripod! Am I right? |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:11:50 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by AJAger:
In bright light, e-TTL flash will act as 'fill' and, as it says, fill in shadows. It does this automatically, as the system meters as before; as if there were no flash unit mounted and the flash provides a little 'extra'. Again, experimentation is the key, as the maximum shutter speed that can normally be used with an external flash is 1/200s. |
That only if you have the flash's FP (high speed sync) mode enabled. If not, the camera will top it's shutter speed at 1/200 (cz it recognizes the flash been mounted on the hotshoe). The info will blink on the view finder, but will still allow the shot, overexposing it! If u want to use fill flash on bright light, u have to set the FP mode on the flash, or either diminish it's firing power manually.
And of course, experiencing is the key!
edit: reading the topic's title I can say, this is no stupid question at all! It's very very interesting
Message edited by author 2005-06-29 15:21:24. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:15:28 PM · #19 |
ouch, double post!
sorry
Message edited by author 2005-06-29 15:21:46. |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:19:33 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by scuds:
If u want to use fill flash on bright light, u have to set the FP mode on the flash, or either diminish it's firing power manually.
|
or use a smaller aperature, or a polarizer, or some other filter to evenly block light |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:37:33 PM · #21 |
Scuds, you're just really confusing the issue :)
AJAger pretty much said everything that needs to be said, but half of the posts on this thread seem to have misunderstood the original question, hence all the confusion.
Juniper366 appears to be confused about the meter reading she's using to set her settings by in manual mode, and that the presence of the flash doesn't change these. You have to understand, these flashes are pretty versatile - when shooting with flash, the meter in manual mode only shows how much natural light there is, but with the flash present, you can set your manual settings pretty much any way you want (up to the x-sync shutter speed) and the flash will compensate to make your image correctly exposed.
You just need to use the meter as a guide to how much available light will be in your image relative to the flash in manual mode, you don't have to set to it. In Av and Tv modes, the camera will act as if you'd set it exactly on the meter, but if you change the exposure compensation, your image will still be correctly exposed with the flash.
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 03:46:53 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by riot:
Scuds, you're just really confusing the issue :) |
Ok, I'm totally lost! Back to the flash's manual again, and damn I'll also sleep with my camera's manual as well.
So, what is the maximum speed sync for, if you can set it for anything higher than 1/200, been it fill flash or not!?
Guess I'll have to try diff stuff myself, and post the results here for analisys! |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 04:01:13 PM · #23 |
Thank you all for your information!! I learn so much from this web sight. Riot, thanks for summing it up. It makes sense to me now!! I will go home tonight and experiment, as everyone suggested, and let you know how it goes!!! :o)
Jen |
|
|
|
06/29/2005 04:05:54 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by scuds:
Originally posted by riot:
Scuds, you're just really confusing the issue :) |
Ok, I'm totally lost! Back to the flash's manual again, and damn I'll also sleep with my camera's manual as well.
So, what is the maximum speed sync for, if you can set it for anything higher than 1/200, been it fill flash or not!?
Guess I'll have to try diff stuff myself, and post the results here for analisys! |
Depends on the camera's shutter. For the 20D it's 1/250, the 350D and 10D is 1/200. The point is, that (up to the guide number), the flash will output as much power as you need to make your exposure correct for any combination of manual settings.
The x-sync speed is the shortest amount of time your camera can keep its shutter ENTIRELY open. The flash burst itself is much shorter than this, and so the shutter needs to be fully open at the time of the flash for the entire frame to be properly exposed. Faster than this speed, a gap between the shutter leaves moves across the frame, so not all of it is being exposed at the same time. When the on-board flash is popped up, or a hotshoe flash is enabled, your camera will simply not allow you to set a higher shutter speed.
Message edited by author 2005-06-29 16:10:26.
|
|
|
|
06/29/2005 08:57:55 PM · #25 |
I don't suppose that this is the right time to bring flash exposure compensation into the debate, is it?
|
|
|
|
Current Server Time: 08/18/2025 07:46:02 AM  |
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 08/18/2025 07:46:02 AM EDT.
|
