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06/29/2005 10:21:53 AM · #1 |
I would like to bring up for debate a new type of challenge starting next year. It will give us (the community), Site Council, and Administrators time to debate the subject to see if it would be a good idea or feasible. I believe the idea has been brought up before in a similar format but I would like to know what everyone thinks of this Challenge idea.
1. Have a free study challenge each month beginning January open to Members with advanced editing rules.
2. The top 50 from each of these free study challenges will be invited to participate in a quarterly challenge. We would have 4 quarterly challenges leading to the best of 2006 final challenge.
3. The top 50 from each quarterly challenge will be invited to the Best of 2006 challenge. The winner of this challenge will be crowned with a ribbon Γ’The best of 2006Γ’.
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Breakdown
January 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
February 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
March 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
ΓΒ§ 1st Quarter Free Study Γ’ Invitation only (To 50 from Jan, Feb, Mar. free study) Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
April 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
May 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
June 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
ΓΒ§ 2nd Quarter Free Study Γ’ Invitation only (Top 50 from April, May, June free study) Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
July 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
August 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
September 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
ΓΒ§ 3rd Quarter Free Study Γ’ Invitation only (Top 50 from July, August, September free study) Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
October 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
November 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
December 2006 Free Study Γ’ Members Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
ΓΒ§ 4th Quarter Free Study Γ’ Invitation only (Top 50 from October, November, December free study) Γ’ Editing (DPC Choice)
Best of 2006 Free Study Challenge Γ’ Invitation only (Top 50 from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarterly Free study) - Editing (DPC Choice)
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1. Monthly entries must be taken during the month of the free study. (I.e. January Free study entry must be taken between January 1 Γ’ 31.
2. Quarterly entries must be taken during the three months preceding the challenge. (I.e. 1st quarter free study entry must be taken between January 1 Γ’ March 31)
3. Best of 2006 entries must be taken between January 1, 2006 and December 31, 2006.
4. You cannot enter the same photograph more than once even if it has been cropped and edited.
5. 2 weeks voting period on all challenges.
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I like this idea because during any given month you can try to shot the best photograph possible and enter it into the monthly free study challenge. As you are doing this month to month you will look for a picture to submit to the quarterly challenge, if invited. And doing this all year you will be looking for the best picture to enter the 2006 free study. I believe there will strategies going on here. Say you have four pictures that you think will do well, which do you enter in the monthly free study? Do you enter your second best in the monthly challenge and hold the best for the quarterly challenge in hopes of making the top 50 to be invited to participate in the best of 2006?
Sorry for such a long post. I think DPC has a great system up and running now but this, I believe, would be a goal for people to reach. Now itΓ’s time to debate. Any input, comments, concerns???
Message edited by author 2005-06-30 08:22:53. |
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06/29/2005 10:28:06 AM · #2 |
I like this idea and think the format looks good.
I, personally, think it should be a members only challenge, because it would be another incentive to become a fully paid up member and something special for current members.
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06/29/2005 10:30:12 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by Fleximus:
I like this idea and think the format looks good.
I, personally, think it should be a members only challenge, because it would be another incentive to become a fully paid up member and something special for current members. |
Plus if we had an open challenge free study I can't see how there'd be less than a thousand entries - and people tend to freak out everytime we clear about 400. |
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06/29/2005 10:32:06 AM · #4 |
I also think it sounds like a great idea. But agree it should be a member challenge. It sounds like a great learning opp, I'd be all for it!
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06/29/2005 10:38:22 AM · #5 |
| I think it sounds fantastic. But I think that it'd be better as members-only, too. |
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06/29/2005 10:49:40 AM · #6 |
Amended to members only from input so far.
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06/29/2005 11:00:02 AM · #7 |
Hmm... interesting... but the monthly free study idea has been thrashed about several times in the past, and never really gained much acceptance, since it goes against the whole idea of having to shoot for challenges.
How about making the quarterly challenges the qualifiers, and have the top 50 from each quarter enter the final? Alternatively, have the normal weekly challenges as the qualifiers, and take the top 25-50 from each of those for the quarterlies?
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06/29/2005 11:12:07 AM · #8 |
i question the value of re-submitting images to multiple challenges. i think the preconceived notions of their first voting results would unnaturally skew the results of future submissions.
i like that you're thinking of new ways to increase participation here, though. |
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06/29/2005 11:50:07 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i question the value of re-submitting images to multiple challenges. i think the preconceived notions of their first voting results would unnaturally skew the results of future submissions.
i like that you're thinking of new ways to increase participation here, though. |
I don't think he's calling for using the same image over and over; he's saying the top PHOTOGRAPHERS from each monthly challenge period are invited to participate in the quarterlies, and the top photographers from the quarterlies are invited to the final showdown. If I read it correctly...
That works for me. Re-entering the same images would not work, IMO, for the reasons mucky says.
Robt.
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06/29/2005 12:08:27 PM · #10 |
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06/29/2005 01:16:32 PM · #11 |
| I like this idea. It does give you a gol to shoot for. |
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06/29/2005 01:18:50 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Hmm... interesting... but the monthly free study idea has been thrashed about several times in the past, and never really gained much acceptance, since it goes against the whole idea of having to shoot for challenges.
How about making the quarterly challenges the qualifiers, and have the top 50 from each quarter enter the final? Alternatively, have the normal weekly challenges as the qualifiers, and take the top 25-50 from each of those for the quarterlies? |
That is also a great Idea...
Originally posted by muckpond:
i question the value of re-submitting images to multiple challenges. i think the preconceived notions of their first voting results would unnaturally skew the results of future submissions.
i like that you're thinking of new ways to increase participation here, though. |
I proposed that one could NOT use the same photo if it has use in another challenge. A photo can only be used once even if recropped. Same as the sites current rule about using the same image.
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i question the value of re-submitting images to multiple challenges. i think the preconceived notions of their first voting results would unnaturally skew the results of future submissions.
i like that you're thinking of new ways to increase participation here, though. |
I don't think he's calling for using the same image over and over; he's saying the top PHOTOGRAPHERS from each monthly challenge period are invited to participate in the quarterlies, and the top photographers from the quarterlies are invited to the final showdown. If I read it correctly...
That works for me. Re-entering the same images would not work, IMO, for the reasons mucky says.
Robt. |
You are correct Robert. The monthly challenges would only qualify you for the quarterly challenges and the quarterly would only qualify you for the best of 2006. You would have to enter a different photograph in each challenge. No one could use the same photograph again in another challenge.
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06/29/2005 03:26:12 PM · #13 |
I am opposed to the concept of limiting participation based on the results of a previous challenge. This is making it much more of a competition and taking away the teaching/learning aspect almost entirely. For all the reasons that came forward when the Masters, and other invititational challenges, were introduced -- this sort of thing just doesn't seem to be a good fit here at dpc. Who wants to be excluded from a Free Study? or from a Best of the Year challenge? The discussions surrounding past limited-participation challenges brought an awful lot of hard feelings and misrepresentations. Do we really need to go through that again? or can we learn not to repeat the same mistake.
If you perceive the size of the occasional 400+ challenge to be a problem there are better solutions than trying to stratify the community based on what people have accomplished in previous challenges.
I like the idea that Free Study challenges are limited to paid members but must they always be conducted under Advanced rules? Can't paid members compete without a theme under the Basic rules once in a while?
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06/29/2005 03:37:27 PM · #14 |
I like this plan. I'm all for more free studies, and I really like the idea of the quarterly / yearly ones as well.
As for allowing previously posted images, I would think that if an artist wanted to post the same image that they have already posted, why not let them. If it did well in the past, why not stick with it. I for won't let my voting change on such an image, but I can see some around here that would vote it lower because they saw it before.
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06/29/2005 03:39:16 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I am opposed to the concept of limiting participation based on the results of a previous challenge. This is making it much more of a competition and taking away the teaching/learning aspect almost entirely. For all the reasons that came forward when the Masters, and other invititational challenges, were introduced -- this sort of thing just doesn't seem to be a good fit here at dpc. Who wants to be excluded from a Free Study? or from a Best of the Year challenge? The discussions surrounding past limited-participation challenges brought an awful lot of hard feelings and misrepresentations. Do we really need to go through that again? or can we learn not to repeat the same mistake. |
I disagree (in part anyway). First off it's actually called DPChallenge so I don't see the harm in the competitive nature of it. I think there's plenty of room to learn within that framework PROVIDED (and this is where I agree with you Harvey) that the advent of such challenges doesn't take away from the regular challenges. So to view the challenge from another perspective, the suggestion doesn't exclude anyone from their usual activities, it merely provides something additional for those who are in a position to take advantage of it. The idea that this is for next year means that as of today, no one has an advantage since no one has yet qualified. Seems a pretty level playing field to me.
Originally posted by coolhar:
If you perceive the size of the occasional 400+ challenge to be a problem there are better solutions than trying to stratify the community based on what people have accomplished in previous challenges. |
I'd like to hear some ideas on this. I agree we should not be using the qualified free-study idea to reduce challenge sizes. The main part of this site should not be exclusive.
Originally posted by coolhar:
I like the idea that Free Study challenges are limited to paid members but must they always be conducted under Advanced rules? Can't paid members compete without a theme under the Basic rules once in a while? |
Agree 100%. I'd love to see some more variety in the editing rules...some less, some more. it's how we learn and create and experiment.
No offense intended Harvey - just offering an opposing view.
P |
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06/30/2005 08:33:06 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Who wants to be excluded from a Free Study? or from a Best of the Year challenge? |
No member would be excluded from any of the monthly free study challenges.
Originally posted by coolhar:
The discussions surrounding past limited-participation challenges brought an awful lot of hard feelings and misrepresentations. Do we really need to go through that again? or can we learn not to repeat the same mistake. |
The hard feelings brought on in the past invitational challenges was because people felt there was an unleveled playing field by inviting people from results that had been tallied before the invitational challenge started. This proposal is by far different from that. We are debating it 6 months in advance and if DPC decides to do this, everyone starts at the same point, a level playing field. Past results, ribbons, and placements don't count.
Originally posted by coolhar:
If you perceive the size of the occasional 400+ challenge to be a problem there are better solutions than trying to stratify the community based on what people have accomplished in previous challenges. |
This challenge proposal has nothing to do with the number of entries in any challenge and was not placed on the table because of that. It was a challenge suggestion to give every member a chance to participate. |
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06/30/2005 08:34:54 AM · #17 |
| Amended to DPC editing choice. Maybe basic one month and advanced the next. No one will know until the challenge is posted. |
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06/30/2005 08:57:51 AM · #18 |
Ok, I would go along with this idea. It seems pretty easy to implement. Another option is to give a theme for two of the three months on the qualifiers, istead of constant free studies.
Also, if you have monthly free studies, when will you do the quarterly free studies? For example, the 1st quarter free study would run in April? and there would be the normal monthly Free Study? I am guessing the answer would be yes. And then, the 2006 free study would only be judged in January, 2007? We are doing some long term thinking. maybe it would be time to get a sponsor for some prize out there for the 2006 free study winner.
I can see, that with Speed challenges, there will be times when will have 5 or possibly 6 studies going on at once! This could be doom for those who are members and a bit obsessive, compulsive in their behavior:)
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06/30/2005 09:04:11 AM · #19 |
I can see lots of people only focusing on the free study...and not entering into the other challenges.
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06/30/2005 09:14:35 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I am opposed to the concept of limiting participation based on the results of a previous challenge. This is making it much more of a competition and taking away the teaching/learning aspect almost entirely. For all the reasons that came forward when the Masters, and other invititational challenges, were introduced -- this sort of thing just doesn't seem to be a good fit here at dpc. Who wants to be excluded from a Free Study? or from a Best of the Year challenge? The discussions surrounding past limited-participation challenges brought an awful lot of hard feelings and misrepresentations. Do we really need to go through that again? or can we learn not to repeat the same mistake.
If you perceive the size of the occasional 400+ challenge to be a problem there are better solutions than trying to stratify the community based on what people have accomplished in previous challenges.
I like the idea that Free Study challenges are limited to paid members but must they always be conducted under Advanced rules? Can't paid members compete without a theme under the Basic rules once in a while? |
I agree with this 100%. I like the idea of more free studies. I don't care for the tiered contest parts of this idea.
Also, as to the general objections to having more free studies, as this is a "challenge" site, the real nature of this site is as a community who share a common interest photography. Saying we can do "free studies" elsewhere misses the point that you would be doing it with another community. I've participated in a lot of photography sites, but never found a community quite like this one.
In fact, when there are no challenge topics that I care to participate in, as happened for almost the complete month of June, I find myself coming here less often, and having to turn to other outlets to help motivate me and to share my photos. But there's no outlet like a challenge to put forth your best work and have it looked at, and commented by, so many users. So having more free studies, without adding limited follow up challenges, would be welcome to me. |
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06/30/2005 09:59:06 AM · #21 |
Basically I'm yet to hear any changers in format that I would be happy with......maybe I'm in a comfort zone or whatever but i think we have enough competition and over competitive focus here already without having a "Best of" challenge.
I do enjoy how the free studies are random and would hate to see that go....maybe we could have a free study put up instead of a normal weekly members challenge every now or then. I'm sure we could get some great images in a week and the monthly ones seem to drag out.
Anyway I like to here ideas put forward and to listen to as many views as possible before being really convinced on the need for change. |
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06/30/2005 11:24:08 AM · #22 |
As always, I wholly support the idea of monthly Free Studies. Rather than being "against" the challenge nature of the site, they are another aspect of challenge, the creation of compelling imagery without the bounds of challenge topic. I believe they add to the participation and engagement of members, and are another attractive feature that encourages membership.
Using monthly Free Studies to "feed" quarterly and/or annual "best of" competitions is, IMO, a wonderful idea.
Overall, the Free Studies tend to produce some outstanding images that otherwise would not make it inot competions here at DPC. Bottom line is, the more comeplling images that are submitted, the better the site becomes. It's all about quality. As for the proposed "best of" challenges not encouraging learning, I would debate that. We learn by competing, and are driven harder to compete when there is a reward, such as entry into a "best of" challenge.
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06/30/2005 01:10:11 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Pedro:
I disagree (in part anyway). First off it's actually called DPChallenge so I don't see the harm in the competitive nature of it. I think there's plenty of room to learn within that framework PROVIDED (and this is where I agree with you Harvey) that the advent of such challenges doesn't take away from the regular challenges. So to view the challenge from another perspective, the suggestion doesn't exclude anyone from their usual activities, it merely provides something additional for those who are in a position to take advantage of it. The idea that this is for next year means that as of today, no one has an advantage since no one has yet qualified. Seems a pretty level playing field to me. |
Competition is a very important part of the dpc experience. For me, and I expect many others, it was the hook the pulled me into the learning part. And it keeps me involved by serving as a measure of my improvement. While there are lots of sites that offer many and varied forms of photo competitions, dpc's blend of competition/education is unique.
The "doesn't take anything away" arguement is ok as far as it goes. No one, neither paid member nor registered user, would lose any challenges that they now have available. But that does not address the shift in the attention, and resources, of the community. That's something that is hard to quantify but one measure would be a decrease in views, votes and comments for the regular challenges. The people who benefit most from other people looking at their images would be getting less attention.
Originally posted by Pedro:
I'd like to hear some ideas on this. I agree we should not be using the qualified free-study idea to reduce challenge sizes. The main part of this site should not be exclusive. |
I don't think we have ever had a Free Study run under Basic rules. The fact that the Open challenges are where the biggest turnouts seem to occur, and the fact that many paid members continue to enter the Open challenges suggest that they are popular. If there is a strong desire to try something new and different, why not a Basic rules Free Study challenge?
If you think the main part of the site should be non-exclusive, why do you think some other part should be? Let's all stay together.
Originally posted by Pedro:
No offense intended Harvey - just offering an opposing view. |
None taken.
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06/30/2005 01:53:15 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
No member would be excluded from any of the monthly free study challenges. |
But the vast majority of the community would be excluded from entering the quarterly and tthe best of year.
Originally posted by SDW65:
The hard feelings brought on in the past invitational challenges was because people felt there was an unleveled playing field by inviting people from results that had been tallied before the invitational challenge started. This proposal is by far different from that. We are debating it 6 months in advance and if DPC decides to do this, everyone starts at the same point, a level playing field. Past results, ribbons, and placements don't count. |
This proposal may be far different in it's structure, and in that it is announced ahead of time, but those are minor points in respect to the objections that came up the last time such an elitist challenge was announced. One of the major points raised was that it is exclusionary, and that is still present. Another complaint was that the rewarding for past accomplishment had nothing to do with educating photogrphers and that complaint is still as valid in the format proposed here. In some respects this proposal is different but in the areas that caused the greatest dissention, it remains the same.
Several of the posts in this thread speak in favor of monthly Free Study challenges. I have done so in the past, even put forward proposals of my own. However, that is really a separate issue from having challenges that exclude part of the community based on past scores. It would be helpful if the two ideas were not mingled together in the same proposal. We could have monthly Free Studies without the format of a tiered, limited-entry contest.
The current proposal is, IMHO, about naming a best photographer, a sort of "King of DPC" for the year. With such a prize at stake the amount of cheating is bound to increase. It points our attention toward a person being named the top competitor here. It does not point our attention toward perfecting skills or learning new techniques, nor toward superior photography. It is less about learning/teaching than about ego gratification and sycophantism. There is already too much of that here without adding a year long, three-tiered, exclusionary contest that will leave most of us standing on the sidelines.
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