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06/15/2005 10:01:45 AM · #26 |
However you vote, please leave comments. Thanks.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 11:47:46. |
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06/15/2005 10:08:52 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by reemas:
It's unfair to those of us who tried to make the photo fit the challenge theme. |
Another thing I am seeing is that images with beautiful dramatic sunsets or stormy skys seem to do well, no matter what the main subject is. Personally, I don't vote for the sky. I vote on the main subject that is supposed to be within the challenge description. When we have a "Sky" challenge, I will vote accordingly. But I've seen some really great images, be outvoted because they don't have a pretty sky. I read in another thread where someone wished they would have entereded their other picture, because it had lots of pretty sky. The image they entered was excellent, with lots a fine detail, and great lighting techniques, but it was outvoted, due to 'lack of sky'.
I can't change how people vote, but I can voice my opinion on some of the voting, and what I am seeing as a pattern. It's unforturnate. Forget the big sky.
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06/15/2005 10:49:43 AM · #28 |
I feel the same way as the initial commenter in this thread. The image should meet the challenge. Yes, I know - you can't read the photog's mind that submitted the challenge entry - but you know what, that's part of the photographers responsibility, to sell or convince the viewer what the image is trying to say. That's part of the challenge as well. And these are 'Challenges' - not just a pretty picture free style event. I use nico's quote because unfortunately I feel too many people have a similar train of thought when it comes to challenge voting.
The key line that SHOULD be considered is this one from nico's posting.
"The most powerful images are the ones that speak to the viewer."
Exactly, 'Speak to me'...tell me/show me how your image fits the challenge and do it in a way that is creative and appealing in a way that makes me say 'Wow', I get it.
Originally posted by nico_blue:
I always give the photog the benefit of the doubt when it comes to meeting the challenge. Just my way of voting. For me does it meet the challenge is a yes/no... and although its hardly ever a no, even when it is i would still give as high as a 6 or 7 if the image blows me away (usually they dont and end up with 2's or 3's). I vote more based on photo quality (technical things like sharpness, lighting, balance, noise, composition, colors, etc) and artistic merits (originality, creativity, deeper meanings, moods, settings, emotion, etc).
I think its really unfortunate when people try so hard to 'meet the challenge' that they lose all the feelings and emotions from their photos. Photography is a form of art, a form of expression. The most powerful images are the ones that speak to the viewer. They take the viewer to another place, they bring a smile to the face and they make one stop and think.
Meeting the challenge is important but creating art is just as important if not more important - there is a whole world out there where meeting the challenge means nothing, your photo will need to stand on its own two feet, on its own merits. If you find yourself trying too hard to meet the challenge with dissappointing results, try giving yourself more creative liberty, take chances, forget the challenge for a few seconds and explore the world with your minds eye wide open, you will be surprised what you have been missing. |
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06/15/2005 10:54:22 AM · #29 |
wow i'm actually afraid to post my opinion...but why let that stop me...
this site is about fun...and for a very small fee you can have the most fun it has to offer...
i joined so that i can learn and improve
that being said my last few entries have sucked wind.
the point...
i know that i can walk around with my camera and take some really nice photos...but i'm here because i want to be told that my photo has to be of something specific...in the challenge that is..i have used this example before...if the challenge is shoot a pear and you shoot a great amazing knock my socks off grapefruit you get a 1...i will not vote a great grapefruit higher than an average pear...if you want to show off your grapefruit post it in the forums i will tell you its the best grapefruit i have ever seen...
there is a difference between i dont see this challenge the same as my neighbor and then i will try and see where you are comming from and obviously not even comming close...
ok way to much caffine
once again buzz steps off her soapbox
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06/15/2005 11:35:10 AM · #30 |
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06/15/2005 11:38:30 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by reemas:
bear_music,
you might be right. but nico_blue is more right:
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im sure our voting habits arent too different when you normalize everything. Our middle grounds might be slightly different in places but we both score excellent photos that meet the challenge very high and awful shots that dont meet the challenge very low.
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ill just adjust so may average is a 5 instead of a 3.2, but like i said earlier, i really only voted above 4 for photos that met the challenge enough and were shot nicely. |
reemas, your vote is just that, your vote. And just because you are relatively new here does not mean that your view is any less valid than any one else's. Please continue to vote as you have in the past, there is nothing wrong with what you have been doing.
Here's a quote from the rules -- "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
There is always a lot of discussion in these forums about how people vote. No way of voting is wrong. For someone who has been here long enough to know there way around the site to say to a newcomer that his way of voting is "appalling" because of a low average is... well, ... appalling. And to commend them for agreeing to change serves only compound the wrong done. We all are entitled to our own opinions, and our own ways of voting.
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06/15/2005 12:07:02 PM · #32 |
Technically speaking.. the number on your vote doesn't really matter. It is the consistancy in which you give out those numbers that matter. If your entire vote range was -1 to -10 on a 1-10 scale, with -1 being the best and -10 being the worst... as long as that was consistant through all images (meaning few outlier votes) then that would still average out correctly over every vote.
The problem is inconsistancy... such as just giving 1's to a brilliant shot that you don't believe met the challenge. That would skew the scale just a bit if not everyone voted in that manner. Of course, with enough votes, such outliers would just be that... outliers. |
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06/15/2005 12:15:10 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is always a lot of discussion in these forums about how people vote. No way of voting is wrong. |
In theory, I agree with you completely.
In practice, I think DPC's voting system is broken.
As long as everyone votes 100%, it really doesnt matter if you're a high-voter or a low-voter. But if people votes less than 100% (as low as just 20%), high-votes and low-votes do not balance out. Either there should be a consistent voting scale, or only 100% voting should count.
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06/15/2005 12:17:28 PM · #34 |
yeoua, thats why i'll vote the way i do. because i vote consistently. i just feel the 1-4's are there for a reason, and perhaps can also improve the photographers photo's.
i vote consistently, however i do give great shots a 1 if they clearly dont fit the challenge in my opinion. if i adjust my opinion to see it the way a photographer did, i would probably give all shots a 8-10. i think a photo is what it is to the VIEWER.
i joined so i dont take the same flower, sky, sunset, etc photos and put them in a metal, or granular challenge. i joined to flex my creative muscle and adapt so i could be a well rounded photographer. these themes give me ideas and test my creativity.
so i vote accordingly. i'll give you an example on my voting: if a coin photo enters the metal challenge. somewhat well shot, but clearly boring. well i'll give it a 4. if a photo of a spectacular metal bridge (liek Geometry in Steel by nshapiro) enters the contest, i'll give it a 8-10.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 12:18:59. |
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06/15/2005 12:37:11 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by reemas:
snipped |
*YAWN*
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06/15/2005 12:38:15 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by reemas:
yeoua, thats why i'll vote the way i do. because i vote consistently. i just feel the 1-4's are there for a reason, and perhaps can also improve the photographers photo's. |
Sure, using 1-4s to convey need for improvement in photographs is a good idea.
Originally posted by reemas:
i vote consistently, however i do give great shots a 1 if they clearly dont fit the challenge in my opinion. if i adjust my opinion to see it the way a photographer did, i would probably give all shots a 8-10. i think a photo is what it is to the VIEWER. |
Not all challenge descriptions are crsyal clear. A flower shot in metal clearly does not meet the challenge and maybe deserves a low vote. However, an interpretation of 'decisions' or 'darkness' that is not the same as your interpretation does not merit a low vote in my opinion.
If you think you'd vote all 8-10s if you gave benefit of doubt to the photographer, then probably you've been missing on the technical details, with extreme emphasis on meeting the challenge. Very few entries in any given challenge can be called technically perfect. Not everyone here was a born photographer.
Originally posted by reemas:
so i vote accordingly. i'll give you an example on my voting: if a coin photo enters the metal challenge. somewhat well shot, but clearly boring. well i'll give it a 4. if a photo of a spectacular metal bridge (liek Geometry in Steel by nshapiro) enters the contest, i'll give it a 8-10. |
Sounds good.
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06/15/2005 01:57:55 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is always a lot of discussion in these forums about how people vote. No way of voting is wrong. For someone who has been here long enough to know there way around the site to say to a newcomer that his way of voting is "appalling" because of a low average is... well, ... appalling. And to commend them for agreeing to change serves only compound the wrong done. We all are entitled to our own opinions, and our own ways of voting. |
Har, it's not that he votes low that I found "appalling" (and I'm willing to concede the word choice is hyperbolic and possibly offensive) but that Reemas, by his own statement and the corroboration of his voting average, considers well over half the entries in a given challenge to be off topic, and that he will give an off topic image (in his opinion, of course) no more than a 3. The "scary" part, as it were, is that this sort of judgment is completely inflexible. I'd find it equally "appalling" if someone said they won't score any image higher than a 3 if it's not primarily blue, because blue's their favorite color.
But for you to say that "commending" them for "agreeing to change" is to "compound the wrong done" is just plain silly. What wrong? Reemas gave an opinion and I gave mine. We're each entitled to our own. Are you saying it's always wrong if someone allows his opinion to be influenced by interaction in this forum? That's beyond ridiculous. The whole point of forums like this is to read other opinions and learn and grow.
I know I certainly have. Apparently Reemas is willing to also.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 13:59:30.
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06/15/2005 02:05:53 PM · #38 |
well i dont like when people IMO dont meet the challenge but i look at this way...these people may get 6 or 7's but they wont win a challenge, i havent seen every winning entry but since i've been here and the previous winners i've seen are all of photos that deffinately meet the challenge. So as long as our photos obviously meet the challenge, we need to work on a better quality image so we can make it to the top!
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06/15/2005 02:13:33 PM · #39 |
I vote as follows:
bear_music - 7
reemas - 5
coolhar - 9
queenbeez - 8
rgo - 5
buzzmom - 6
clicknsee - 4
vfwlkr - 5
I'm not saying why or how I am voting, or even what for. That is my prerogative. ;-)
I have watched another vote and I am amazed - a very different approach to me. But my way of voting is no "better". It is a personal choice and it is anonymous for a good reason - you can vote however you want to, and answer to no-one.
Vote in any way except in a manner that satisfies you! Given the consistent quality of the winners, it is not as if the system appears to be broken.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 14:14:29.
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06/15/2005 08:48:19 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by buzzmom:
wow i'm actually afraid to post my opinion...but why let that stop me...
this site is about fun...and for a very small fee you can have the most fun it has to offer...
i joined so that i can learn and improve
that being said my last few entries have sucked wind.
the point...
i know that i can walk around with my camera and take some really nice photos...but i'm here because i want to be told that my photo has to be of something specific...in the challenge that is..i have used this example before...if the challenge is shoot a pear and you shoot a great amazing knock my socks off grapefruit you get a 1...i will not vote a great grapefruit higher than an average pear...if you want to show off your grapefruit post it in the forums i will tell you its the best grapefruit i have ever seen...
there is a difference between i dont see this challenge the same as my neighbor and then i will try and see where you are comming from and obviously not even comming close...
ok way to much caffine
once again buzz steps off her soapbox |
Hey...I'm not the only one who thinks this way. My challenge entries have tanked and then tanked lower. Despite the fact the at least some have obviously met the challenge. And when I look at the pics that have done not only better, but significantly better, then I wonder what people are voting on. Has anyone actually read the rules on voting? From some of the pics that win or place high, I don't think so.
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06/15/2005 10:48:59 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is always a lot of discussion in these forums about how people vote. No way of voting is wrong. For someone who has been here long enough to know there way around the site to say to a newcomer that his way of voting is "appalling" because of a low average is... well, ... appalling. And to commend them for agreeing to change serves only compound the wrong done. We all are entitled to our own opinions, and our own ways of voting. |
Har, it's not that he votes low that I found "appalling" (and I'm willing to concede the word choice is hyperbolic and possibly offensive) but that Reemas, by his own statement and the corroboration of his voting average, considers well over half the entries in a given challenge to be off topic, and that he will give an off topic image (in his opinion, of course) no more than a 3. The "scary" part, as it were, is that this sort of judgment is completely inflexible. I'd find it equally "appalling" if someone said they won't score any image higher than a 3 if it's not primarily blue, because blue's their favorite color.
But for you to say that "commending" them for "agreeing to change" is to "compound the wrong done" is just plain silly. What wrong? Reemas gave an opinion and I gave mine. We're each entitled to our own. Are you saying it's always wrong if someone allows his opinion to be influenced by interaction in this forum? That's beyond ridiculous. The whole point of forums like this is to read other opinions and learn and grow.
I know I certainly have. Apparently Reemas is willing to also.
Robt. |
I don't remember you ever speaking out against the people who post that they never, or hardly ever, vote any 1s, 2s or 3s because they think that's not nice. I find those voters method just as "scary" and "inflexible" as you do reemas, and their reasoning even more "silly". But I would defend their right to vote in their own preferred manner.
You can't just go around castigating people for having a low average vote cast, especially newbies. There is always going to be someone who has the lowest average on the site. To condemn them smacks of a self-serving effort to raise all the votes and benefit with the rising tide.
I am sick and tired of people trying to tell other people how to vote. I apologize to the community for the occasions when I have done that in the past. And I am even more sick and tired of people indirectly trying to imtimidate people to not use the full 1 thru 10 scale. People don't have to give a comment with a low vote if they don't want to. And you don't have the right to try to make them feel bad for any vote, low or high; and you don't have the right to pressure them to justify, or explain their votes, or method of voting. People sometimes vote your image low because they think it's crap, even when you and others think it is great. Get used to it.
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06/15/2005 11:04:12 PM · #42 |
I just posted this as a response to another message regarding voting, but I think it applies to this thread too... so here's a copy/paste:
I'm relatively new to DPC, and I'm learning a bit (by watching the voting) about the balance between the subject meeting the challenges vs. the technical quality of the photo. It's not that often that an image is "excellent" in both.
My lean (probably influenced by my lack of photographic experience) is towards the subject meeting the challenge. This is the more subjective of the two. I enjoy finding an image that makes me think and meets the challenge in a "novel" way. I don't seem to have a great appreciation for images where I can't make out what I'm looking at, or that don't evoke a response in me that relates to the challenge.
It seems rare to find an image that captures the essence of the challenge and is technically marvelous -- those are the ones that really stand out. I think luck has a lot to do with that -- being in the right place at the right time, anticipating a great shot -- making your own "luck". Being able to do that is what separates great photographers from the point & shoot photographer.
And I think it's helpful when taking a shot to decide whether you're trying to communicate *your* vision/thoughts on the topic (like "Darkness" or "Fantasy World") or to evoke the topic in the *viewer's* consciousness. I enjoy most the latter, because rather than trying to get others to see it my way, it's more a process of me trying to see things their way -- so it's more of a growing experience for me to see things in new ways.
Our pictures are viewed by a wide variety of people -- I don't understand why people vote the way they do, but those votes are still valid -- they're just as valid as mine. People have different perspectives on images and life. That's what makes it so fascinating to work on raising my score -- to see how well I'm seeing things from the other perspective.
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06/16/2005 12:19:36 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I don't remember you ever speaking out against the people who post that they never, or hardly ever, vote any 1s, 2s or 3s because they think that's not nice. I find those voters method just as "scary" and "inflexible" as you do reemas, and their reasoning even more "silly". But I would defend their right to vote in their own preferred manner.
You can't just go around castigating people for having a low average vote cast, especially newbies. There is always going to be someone who has the lowest average on the site. To condemn them smacks of a self-serving effort to raise all the votes and benefit with the rising tide.
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Good grief, Har... This completely misses the point. I couldn't care less if someone has an unually high or low voting pattern. As long as it's consistent it's fine.
My issue was, and continues to be, that the OP's statement, when combined with his voting average, pointed out that he thinks well over half the entries in a given challenge are not on topic, and I thought that needed addressing, as it seems to be extraordinarily harsh to me.
It's NOT about low scores or high scores or any scores at all: it's about how one perceives "meeting the challenge" and it seems worth discussing.
Your suggestion that this is a self-serving effort by me to get my average to rise is ridiculous, and I'm sure you know it.
Robt.
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06/16/2005 12:28:23 PM · #44 |
I dont think half the entries don't meet the challenge. I give 1 and 2's for one I feel clearly don't. That would be about 10 - 25 % depending on the challenge.
However, there is a reason we have votes of 1-10, not only 5-8. So for the remaining images, that MEET the challenge in my opinion, I vote how I feel.
Quick example:
A picture of a car in the bird challege = 1
A blurry photo of a pigeon in your backyard = 2
A boring but clear photo of a crow in a tree = 3
In order to register on my scale of 1-10 it has to meet the challenge. I don't deduct points from images that don't clearly meet the challenge. I simply give them low scores. If I'm doubtful, then I give it a slight benefit. |
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06/16/2005 12:56:11 PM · #45 |
| Just try to remember that the actual number on the vote doesn't matter. The distribution of your votes and your consistancy matter more, and the fewer outliers the better. |
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