A question on HDR Images and Challenges

Sigma 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 DC for Nikon

06/06/2005 04:47:37 PM · #1

I can't ask/answer this at all for PhotoShop since I don't use it, so my question is based on PhotoImpact's process for creating HDR images since that is what I use.

The very first HDR image I create using the bracketed images I have the option to stop the process and save a curve for my camera. Once this is done, I don't need to take the bracketed images again, I just need to open the image and the HDR panel, select my camera's profile curve, and 'create' the HDR from that using only ONE image. Any changes to the image using this method would be applied to the whole image.

So here are my questions:
1. Would an HDR image created from the camera curve and NOT multiple images be allowed in a challenge?
2. If yes, would it be allowed in Basic Editing, Advanced Editing or both?
3. If not allowed if created by the curve and not multiple images, why not?
4. Does anyone use HDR images?

EDIT: Added text image

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 17:28:22.

Titia

Sony DSC-F717

06/06/2005 04:52:09 PM · #2

Don't even know what HDR means.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED

06/06/2005 04:56:12 PM · #3

Originally posted by Titia:

Don't even know what HDR means.

High Dynamic Range - it is a way of compensating for the camera's limitations.

I figured someone would say that/ask what it is so I was just preparing a pic taken from the manual that explains it but I see they won't even let me screen capture the page. Give me a minute or two.

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 16:57:08.

nomad469

Nikon D700

06/06/2005 04:57:36 PM · #4

HDR is High Dynamic Range ...
It is the process of taking several braketed exposures ranging from overexposed to underexposed and using computer black magic fusing those images together to (in some cases)vastly improve the visual range of the image...

(i think :) )

Truegsht

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

06/06/2005 04:59:18 PM · #5

HDR is a high dynamic range image. HDR images can be used as spherical enviroments but also as normal textures.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

06/06/2005 05:12:57 PM · #6

.

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 17:16:21.

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

06/06/2005 05:20:19 PM · #7

HDR and PhotoImpact are new to me. I haven't an answer for the legality, SC will have to answer that for you. But the process sounds interesting to me. Have you been using it long enough to give us a critique of it's effectiveness? Before and after samples would be appreciated.

06/06/2005 05:41:58 PM · #8

Originally posted by coolhar:

But the process sounds interesting to me. Have you been using it long enough to give us a critique of it's effectiveness? Before and after samples would be appreciated.

It is interesting and produces some very nice photos. However, my photo ability does not demonstrate its true effectiveness.

I have used it since it came out in version 8 of PI. You cannot tell this since the images on my web are OOC (I usually test images on the web before I hang them in the Gallerage)and the images I have so far posted here (for any reason) have also been OOC (except for my Framed entry - first image submittd with any post processing).

This is only my opinion: I think it is a very useful tool and the photos it creates on its own are much better than a non HDR image. It eliminates some of the post processing steps usually performed since it has already made corrections. In low light situations it has saved a lot of photos from the big bit bucket in the sky. I will work on some photos and post some samples along with the images it took to create the one.

It comes up now since in version 10 of PI the ability to save your specific camera profile actually works and the application of that profile seems to be accurate. Since I got the new camera I have wanted to set up the profile and was going to do that tonight (except that we now have major thunderstorms passing through the area) but was curiuous if it would be accepted in a challenge if the image was produced by a profile as opposed to multiple images (which clearly is not in the rules)).

If you go to ULeads site they have a tutorial on HDR images, creating them, etc. with samples you can see.
//www.ulead.com/learning/pi/pi10_01_1.htm

06/06/2005 05:44:52 PM · #9

Maybe this is better than the text image I applied above:

Producing Realistic Images with High Dynamic Range

Dynamic range is the range of light that can be captured in an image, from the darkest shadows to the brightest highlights. Your camera, even if it is the most expensive brand, can only capture a limited dynamic range as compared to the human eye. Our eyes, which act as lenses, are instructed by the brain to capture multiple areas of a scene to create a composite view continuously. Your camera's film or digital sensor, on the other hand, is not as powerful as the brain to handle multiple processes, it can only take a single snapshot at a time.

For example, when you take a landscape photograph of a mountain beneath a clear blue sky, the resulting picture, more often than not, will have a good exposure of either the mountain or the sky but not both. The exposure settings used to produce the correct color and details of the mountain will produce an almost-white sky while the exposure settings used to produce a blue sky will make the mountain appear as a dark silhouette. Neither film nor digital cameras can use different exposure settings on select areas that are part of one scene. To capture the dynamic range of the mountain scene, the common practice is to apply complicated, tedious, and time-consuming traditional photography techniques. Conversely, you will not find any difficulty viewing precise colors and details of the scene using your eyes.

PhotoImpact, always on the prowl for better solutions to your photography woes, has the High Dynamic Range feature. This feature compensates for camera limitations and resolves exposure problems that photographers frequently encounter when shooting scenes that contain dramatic differences between highlights and shadows. It produces a composite image from pictures of the same scene taken with different exposure values. To fully grasp the functions and toolsets in HDR, this tutorial is divided into two sections. These sections include:

A. Applying HDR to Bracketed Pictures

* Learn how to apply and use the tools within HDR to bracketed pictures.
* Learn about the crop, rotate, and resize options of HDR.

B. Applying HDR to a Single Image

* Learn how to apply and use the tools within HDR to a single image.
* Learn about the crop, rotate, and resize options of HDR.

HDR essentially resolves the limitations beset by your camera equipment. By realizing these limitations, you learn how to work around and find a solution to achieve your goals. However, you should remember that these HDR tutorials are simply starting points on how to improve dynamic range. If you later decide that you want deeper shadows or pronounced highlights, you can always change the settings to fulfill your imagination. Digital photography is an art that is sustained by creativity and not technical specifications.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

06/06/2005 08:03:04 PM · #10

No one even uses them?

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

06/06/2005 08:50:51 PM · #11

Can I ask a question?
You are mentioning curves and multiple expose. I have taken a little bit of time reading about HDR and from what I understand you have to take several images at different exposure levels for the software to come up with a good dynamic range, yes?
Am I understanding so far?
After that what does the software do, take information from all images to produce a single image with dynamic range?

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 21:00:25.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

06/06/2005 09:00:42 PM · #12

Here's what's legal for challenges:
You must start with one physical exposure, so bracketing and using multiple source exposures is out. You can, however take one RAW file, process it twice at different exposure settings, and combine those using layers, or "merge to HDR" in CS2, and use the result in Advanced Editing challenges only. Not legal for Basic Editing challenges.

06/06/2005 09:36:54 PM · #13

Originally posted by kirbic:

Ok, I understand that, but in PhotoImpact, you can create a profile for your camera based on the creation of one/any HDR image and then from that point on you only need ONE image to produce the HDR image, not many. And in this process, after the initial HDR creation/camera profile, all changes are applied to the entire image and produce the same effect as a lot of the techniques after using NeatImage/Curves, etc which are acceptable in Basic Editing.

If it would help I would gladly post/make available for download the manual pages that describe this in detail and state that after the profile is created only ONE image is needed.

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

06/06/2005 09:40:37 PM · #14

Originally posted by SDW65:

Yes. Exactly. It takes the information from multiple exposures of the same scene and combines them to 'broaden' the dynamic range of the camera/image. But what I am asking is can I use a profile of my camera produced by images not related to the challenge to produce the same HDR quality image with only ONE exposure.

coolhar

06/06/2005 10:39:33 PM · #15

I've been reading the tutorials at the Ulead site. It seems to me that the process of building a camera profile and then allowing the software to apply that profile to a single image is, in at least some rudimentary ways, similar to using a calibration target to build a camera profile for use in Neat Image. That wouldn't necessarily make it legal however. It would be nice if it works as well at expanding the dynamic range as image staking, or even approaches that level.

I hope a ruling on it's legality will be forthcoming.

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 22:40:46.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

06/06/2005 10:39:37 PM · #16

That's a hard one to say. If you are using it as a filter or action [in PS terms] it still is hard to say. I do know that if you took 2 or more of the same image and arrived at a profile from the multiple exposures then it would not be legal.
Where I'm having a problem with this question is there are other programs such as RawShooters Essentials 2005 that you can set your camera type [Rebel 300, 350XT, 20D, Nikon D70, D100, etc] and it will set the program for optimal settings for your particular camera. Is that the same as HDR is doing? I don't have an answer.
I would suggest a detailed email to the SC for review and see what they say. I would not risk it at this point because it borders the spirit of the rules atleast. And I don't know if there would be a way for the SC to know if a person arrived at your final picture from a profile set or if a person used multiple exposers of the same scene.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

06/06/2005 10:58:28 PM · #17

Whatever PhotoImpact is doing, it's really no diffrent than applying something like PS's Shadow/highlight tool, essentially you're just compressing the dynamic range. As long as you start with one source image, and finish with one image (your submission), what's in between is irrelevant (for Advanced Editing) as long as you don't violate the few prohibitions that exist, i.e. creating, moving or removing major elements.
I'd submit that you'll get better results shooting RAW and processing for shadows and highlights separately, and then combining, however.

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 23:07:25.

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

06/06/2005 11:06:06 PM · #18

Thanks kirbic.

06/06/2005 11:11:50 PM · #19

Originally posted by kirbic:

I'd submit that you'll get better results shooting RAW and processing for shadows and highlights separately, and then combining, however.

But shooting raw, converting to TIFF, processing as HDR (using an existing profile) produces the same result.

And thanks Kirbic...just feel there is room for discussion here. Not all of us use PhotoShop or NeatImage but do have tools available that will do the same things. Just want to make sure they are recognized as valid or know why they are not.

Message edited by author 2005-06-06 23:14:40.

jab119

06/06/2005 11:11:52 PM · #20

Chris, I use photo impact XL, but have yet to get an HRD image to work. Im guessing from what a few SC members have said and a few others if you use the profile as a filter then it should be allowed.

Just make sure the original UN edited EXIF data is still with the photo or at least in the original.

Since Photo impact users are a minority here and some of PI's tools are very different than PS (or other editors) I feel a review of some of the tools / filters should be in order to help iron out the situation.

James

Prof_Fate

06/06/2005 11:12:14 PM · #21

I would think the same thing could be done in PS - you just adjust lows, mids and highs seperately.

You could set up an action to do some automated adjustment to all your shots - same thing.

what i don't get is how making 1 profile will work on all pics. A landscape shot at noon versus a portrait shot in my living room will have vastly different L/M/H ranges and attendant adjustments.

Now if i shot 3 bracketed shots, used them to build a profile/action, and then applied it to the center of the three bracketed shots...legal but lots of work for little gain.

06/06/2005 11:19:46 PM · #22

Originally posted by jab119:

Chris, I use photo impact XL
James

I have never used XL version, but it is nice to see another PI user here.

Any plug-ins you favor???

[See..,now this is another example of where the BRANCH function would come in handy (see site suggestions)]