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05/24/2005 06:08:53 PM · #1 |
I don't want to be scored. I want to become a better photographer. It occurs to me that receiving hundreds of numerical votes and a handful of comments- most of which are positive (since the negative voters often don't comment) doesn't really help me to improve my photography. While in theory having a challenge topic to strive towards helps to hone photographic skill, I don't believe the current voting system lends itself towards that same goal.
Sharing my photographs with others, of course, is part of the joy of photography. Getting honest and realistic critiques from other eyes is a good way to improve, or see things differently. Scores? Not so much.
I don't think I'll enter challenges anymore- I've finally realized they're counterproductive. Instead I'll post shots in the "individual photo discussion" forum and ask for critiques. And hopefully that way will be able to work towards better images.
I'm looking forward to talking about my "lighting" entry after the challenge is over. It will be nice to get some honest critiques instead of cowardly 1s and 2s.
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05/24/2005 06:13:03 PM · #2 |
I can understand where you are coming from ahaze.
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05/24/2005 06:15:42 PM · #3 |
Good for you. I think that sounds like a good plan. Our goal after all is to develop as photographers, not to please any and everybody. Can't be done. Constructive criticism is what we learn from after all..
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05/24/2005 06:18:00 PM · #4 |
It also has to do with the fact that there's just too dang many entries anymore. It's impossible to be constructive on each one.
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05/24/2005 06:19:58 PM · #5 |
It doesn't have to be an exclusive experience, Andi. There's no reason you couldn't simply use the challenge as a focus for your shooting on any one day, and yet still be learning; likewise, it doesn't have to be the only thing you shoot.
Mind you, I understand your point, I think.
One of the problems is that the most exposure you can get here is through challenge entries. Mind you, with 12 entries in two years, you're hardly thrashing the hell out of the process, are you?
;-)
e
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05/24/2005 06:25:48 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
Sharing my photographs with others, of course, is part of the joy of photography. Getting honest and realistic critiques from other eyes is a good way to improve, or see things differently. Scores? Not so much.
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why not go to //www.PhotoPoints.com then? |
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05/24/2005 06:30:16 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by e301:
There's no reason you couldn't simply use the challenge as a focus for your shooting on any one day, and yet still be learning; likewise, it doesn't have to be the only thing you shoot. |
Which is exactly what I've been doing- entering challenges when they appeal or when I have an image that's appropriate (at least, in my mind). This is why I've only had a dozen entries in two years- I've been frustrated with the lack of input on each entry, so when the challenge is over I tend to shelve DPC contests for a while. Granted, I've gotten a few helpful critiques on each of my images, but none that really explain how it is that not a single one of my images warrants a 6.
It was today that I realized that a number itself is a silly goal.
Learning about photography and about style and viewer taste is more important to me. The Best of 2004 challenge showed me that DPC voters are critical of flaws in perpective (all lines must be parallel to the frame). Why is that? Why does it matter? Those kinds of questions don't get answered in a challenge environment.
I need to find out what my photographic "personality" is to be. I don't know that entering challenges is the way to accomplish that.
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05/24/2005 06:32:10 PM · #8 |
With a total of one challenge entered so far (not counting Granular :-), I take what score I get and live with it in the knowledge that it is the average of a certain group's opinion.
I am very thankfull for any the comments made, but what I like most of all, is seeing how other people see the same subject differently, and what I can learn from that. |
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05/24/2005 06:32:41 PM · #9 |
I will check them out. Just yesterday I started using the photo.net critique forum. Not much action so far, but some reasonable thoughts. I also PMd a DPC member who's work I admire and asked for a critique of my lighting entry. That person's reply was more valuable than just about all other feedback I've received on it.
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05/24/2005 07:07:14 PM · #10 |
When I first started at dpc (and photography), I entered every challenge that came up. That went on for a long time (I could look, I guess). Towards the end of that first year, I decided to enter a couple of shows/contests etc locally, and was able to go back through the "archives" of the dpc challenges, and my outtakes and have a fairly good selection to choose from.
The second year, I chose to selectively choose which challenges I entered. At the end of that year, I had considerably less choices in my pictures.
Just recently, I went back through all the pictures of my son to put together a mother's day album for my mom and MIL. I had a lot more pictures that first year than the second.
My point? When I shoot for challenges, I tend to shoot a lot of a lot of stuff, whether for a challenge or not. My pictures are better, I think, and there are more of them, simply because I am shooting more.
Unfortunately, because of the sheer volume of pics in a challenge, you won't get a lot of feedback. And the number doesn't mean a whole lot either in your progress as a photographer. I have managed a string of low scoring entries (yea, go ahead and lot at my profile, I like the hits :) ), but I feel I am growing as a photographer and doing soem pretty good stuff. It just doesn't always make it to dpc.
There is a balance in the middle. Enter a challenge when it "fits." But don't let the score be the end all of what you think about the picture. I try to enter every challenge. Some weeks are better than others, but at least it gets the brain functioning (sorta), and the lens cap off.
best of luck to you, in whatever you do.
Message edited by author 2005-05-24 19:08:16. |
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05/24/2005 07:22:09 PM · #11 |
Thanks for the input. I just uploaded a few recent photos to my portfolio and cleaned out some old images. Wow, I like taking portraits! With luck people will occasionally comment, and I've just posted a request for suggestions. I think this new tack will work well for me, I've cleared out my DPCPrints images as well and will look to revamp that in the coming months. We'll see where this takes me.
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05/24/2005 07:29:12 PM · #12 |
After quite a lot of disappointing scores lately, I was starting to feel the same way as you do. But then I reminded myself that some of my most successful stock photos were taken specifically for challenges. Okay so I don't get much written feedback, but those are photos that would never have been taken, and the best critique is the fact that someone is prepared to pay money for them, even if I do only get a few cents every time.
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05/24/2005 07:38:47 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
After quite a lot of disappointing scores lately, I was starting to feel the same way as you do. But then I reminded myself that some of my most successful stock photos were taken specifically for challenges. Okay so I don't get much written feedback, but those are photos that would never have been taken, and the best critique is the fact that someone is prepared to pay money for them, even if I do only get a few cents every time. |
I do see your point. But my own personal preferences have evolved in such a way that I don't enjoy photographing things as much anymore as people. I've really fallen in love with portrait and photojournalistic styles, instead of set up "object" shots.
Object shots, I agree, are awesome for stock. And you don't have to worry about objects complaining about the shot taking so long ;) I want to concentrate on photographing humans, and I just wouldn't feel comfortable offering people shots as stock, unless I specifically took the shots for that purpose. Which I may do as well- occasionally spend some time shooting a bunch of mundane object shots to make a little side change in stock, or set up a photo shoot with a friend or relative specifically to practice some technique and use the shots as stock, of course with their approval.
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05/24/2005 07:46:49 PM · #14 |
Then again, some people manage to incorporate people into most of the challenges here. The apple challenge is a case where this is true.
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05/24/2005 07:51:19 PM · #15 |
Yep, that's definitely been my direction in the last few challenges as well. But then we get back to the whole point of being here to learn ;)
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05/24/2005 08:01:27 PM · #16 |
I don't really believe I'm going to learn too much here. My taste just doesn't seem to be mainstream enough for the average voter. But if the challenges provide inspiration and new ideas, that's a benefit too.
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05/24/2005 08:03:38 PM · #17 |
i can relate to where you are andi--i think we're all there at some point in time. as is, i just don't care about the scores, because the scores in no way reflect my abilities as a photographer. for me, they reflect how much i suck at picking a picture for a challenge.
on the other hand, to echo karmat, the challenges do provide an impetus to do more concerted shooting in general. and, the more i participate in the challenges (entering, voting, and commenting), the more critical an eye i can turn on my own work.
all the same, andi, with your ability to shoot stuff like this
you really don't need scores to validate your work.
;-) |
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05/24/2005 08:05:35 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
I don't want to be scored. I want to become a better photographer. It occurs to me that receiving hundreds of numerical votes and a handful of comments- most of which are positive (since the negative voters often don't comment) doesn't really help me to improve my photography. While in theory having a challenge topic to strive towards helps to hone photographic skill, I don't believe the current voting system lends itself towards that same goal.
Sharing my photographs with others, of course, is part of the joy of photography. Getting honest and realistic critiques from other eyes is a good way to improve, or see things differently. Scores? Not so much.
I don't think I'll enter challenges anymore- I've finally realized they're counterproductive. Instead I'll post shots in the "individual photo discussion" forum and ask for critiques. And hopefully that way will be able to work towards better images.
I'm looking forward to talking about my "lighting" entry after the challenge is over. It will be nice to get some honest critiques instead of cowardly 1s and 2s. |
I was agreeing with what you were saying, and starting to get some respect for your position.... until that cheap shot in the last sentence deflated your credibility to the sour grapes level.
The number we receive for our entries, indeed the challenges as a whole, are only a tool to motivate learning. The doing is the instructive part. You better your skills by taking pictures and editing them under the guidance of a theme and a deadline imposed by the competition. The comments, and forum discussions, pale in importance to actually doing it, and doing it again, until you get results that are good enough to share with others. And each of us is their own best critic.
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05/24/2005 08:11:19 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
You better your skills by taking pictures and editing them under the guidance of a theme and a deadline imposed by the competition. The comments, and forum discussions, pale in importance to actually doing it, and doing it again, until you get results that are good enough to share with others. |
I disagree. If I receive a flurry of sub-5 scores with no comments or critiques to explain the score, how am I learning from it? How does anyone learn from low scores with minimal sugggestions? We have to guess the reason for the score. Perhaps they didn't like the subject matter. Perhaps they don't think it met the challenge. Perhaps there is some selfish motivation. I'll never know if they're too cowardly to say. I don't consider that a cheap shot or sour grapes, it's the truth. And it happens in every challenge.
I take better pictures by doing it over and over, that's true. But if I don't receive reasonable feedback, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And as I said, that's counterproductive.
Message edited by author 2005-05-24 20:11:57.
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05/24/2005 08:18:44 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
And each of us is their own best critic. |
Not to pick apart your post, coolhar, but I disagree with this as well. Many of my photos I've been quite proud of- I think this happens to pretty much everyone here- only to have it trounced in the challenge. If you can get feedback out of people, they often point out things you never considered to be an issue. Or it might become obvious that something you were trying to convey fell flat. If I only relied on my own critique I don't think I'd have improved much at all!
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05/24/2005 08:19:39 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
But if I don't receive reasonable feedback, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And as I said, that's counterproductive. |
i think you're on the wrong track here, andi. getting better doesn't necessarily mean scoring higher. i learn from every challenge by taking a real hard look at the top 20 images, then going out and shooting stuff, applying what i figured out from the top 20. it's not the comments i get that help me learn. it's the comments other's make on the winning shots, what i find in the winning shots, and the comments i make myself. dpc is not going to make you better the same way you would get better by taking a class or finding a mentor. dpc simply offers you a vehicle for teaching yourself by having access and exposure to a lot of great photography and a sharing/caring community. but, at the end of the day, how far you go is up to you... |
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05/24/2005 08:19:55 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
... It will be nice to get some honest critiques instead of cowardly 1s and 2s. |
If you are calling people who score your entry low cowards, you're not looking for honest critiques.
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05/24/2005 08:23:16 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
If you are calling people who score your entry low cowards, you're not looking for honest critiques. |
If I get a low score with an explanation, that's not cowardly. That's an honest critique, which I appreciate. It's easy to hide behind a number.
Message edited by author 2005-05-24 20:23:31.
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05/24/2005 08:24:15 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
i learn from every challenge by taking a real hard look at the top 20 images, then going out and shooting stuff, applying what i figured out from the top 20. |
That doesn't require entering a challenge, which is all I said I wasn't going to do anymore ;)
Message edited by author 2005-05-24 20:29:15.
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05/24/2005 08:29:29 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
Originally posted by skiprow:
i learn from every challenge by taking a real hard look at the top 20 images, then going out and shooting stuff, applying what i figured out from the top 20. |
That doesn't require entering a challenge ;) |
Nope, you are correct, it doesn't. I do find, though, that when I'm shooting and preparing an image for a challenge, I tend to fore myself to think outide my normal mode of thinking, since I am preparing the image for presentation to a specifi group with known tastes. It's partly this process that makes the challenges valuable to me. It's also the need to shoot in styles and shoot subjects that are outside my comfort zone, making me a more flexible photog, but also reinforcing (or changing!) my perception as to what are my photographic talents, what styles and subject matter attract me the most, etc.
I certainly don't think it's necessary to enter challenges to learn and grow here, but speaking only for myself, I feel it helps.
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