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04/16/2005 07:43:18 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
7. Is God old? If he's old when was he young? |
Got to love the way kids' minds work.
Personally, I am a committed atheist; I used to describe myself as an agnostic, but in actual fact I am personally certain that there is no Ulterior Force. This belief (and it can only be belief, of course) makes the world actually a more remarkable place, rather than a meaningless place.
As to death: well, I can't rememeber before I was born, why should I have any kind of experience of after I'm dead?
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04/16/2005 07:51:36 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by e301:
Personally, I am a committed atheist; I used to describe myself as an agnostic, but in actual fact I am personally certain that there is no Ulterior Force.
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Same here! |
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04/16/2005 07:59:49 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by e301:
...
Personally, I am a committed atheist; I used to describe myself as an agnostic, but in actual fact I am personally certain that there is no Ulterior Force. This belief (and it can only be belief, of course) makes the world actually a more remarkable place, rather than a meaningless place.
E |
Ed, I used to be a committed atheist, but I'm not so certain anymore... Here's how I see it:
There's a border between knowledge and ignorance, and it's a circle. What little I know is contained within that circle. An infinite unknown lies outside the border of my circle. The more I learn, the older I get, the more I experience life, the larger that border becomes, and the more I become aware of how much I really don't know.
I believe that infinite unknown IS god - forever outside the circle. No need to "worship" anything, nor to commit to any kind of god. My personal "credo" is just to learn what I can in the short time I have... and to let others do the same.
So, currently I'm an agnostic, ...but who knows?? |
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04/16/2005 08:06:16 AM · #29 |
agnostic. Intellectually I lean towards atheism, emotionally I vary my opinion depending on the quality of sunshine.
As for religion, I think it has screwed up the world but that if we didn't have it, people would screw up the world anyway so I'm very even-handed.
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04/16/2005 08:30:29 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
My son is 6 and he goes to a mixed race, multi-cultured school of many religions. He's bright and inquisitive and I've never wittingly forced him into a belief or non-belief of God. Recently, he's begun questioning religion, existence and loads of other stuff I can't mention(!). Here are a few questions that I've had to deal with, so any comments would be fascinating:
1. Am I a Christian?
2. If there's a God why can't we see him?
3. Is God a man or a woman?
4. How can there be different Gods - does it mean someone is lying or wrong?
5. If there's a God why doesn't he stop Adam's sister from being so sick? (She's only 4 and has leukemia)
6. Why can't I see him?
7. Is God old? If he's old when was he young?
8. Who made God?
9. Why didn't God stop the tsunami?
And there are plenty more where those came from.
Please try to leave your own beliefs out of it and answer these logically. |
2, 5 & 9: The crucial thing about man that seperates him from the animals is that he has free will and can choose his own fate - this is how God intended things to be.
As I see it, we would lose a part of our free will if God were all-visible and a part of this universe. It would be similar to being a child in household run by your parents. One would be free to some extent but life would always revolve around how God sees our actions and would judge us. We would certainly not be given a free reign in such a world and our actions would always be colored by what the great one would want us to do - similar to how it would be living under an oppressed regime. (And by that I'm not saying that people will feel oppressed in heaven ... if heaven exists that is.)
And because God doesn't interfere in our lives it God didn't make the tsunami happen and neither is it his fault that Adam's sister is ill. The universe we live in is simply 'as-is' and part of this is that tragedies occur.
7 & 8. When there is no matter and no space there is also no time. So if we imagine that the universe was created or came into being at some time (big bang?) and did not exist before that, then there was no such thing as time before that. Without time God simply existed without being young or old (and he wasn't created - he just existed). I'm not even sure that time exists in the same way for God (if God exists, that is) after the universe had been created as God would probably not be a part of the universe himself and therefor not subject to its rules and ways. E.g. God is beyond the universe in a similar way we can run computer programs that have different rules and ways to the universe we live in.
I'm not religious by the way.
Message edited by author 2005-04-16 08:31:51. |
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04/16/2005 08:52:24 AM · #31 |
I don't have any argument with anything that has been said here.
Yet - personally - No. I do not believe in any kind of God or a super-being.
I do believe that mankind is not the only form of intelligent life in the universe, but that's an answer to a different question.
As for our life - I do not believe that fate or destiny or some form of other being has expectations of us or leads us a pre-known way.
The only reason for things to happen is a series of decisions. People's decisions. Some decisions are made at full awareness, some are not. But at the end - everything that happens - happens for a reason. A certain decision has been made by someone somewhere - and as a resulkt someone, somewhere has done something that caused a complete chain-reaction.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, can be prevented - or can be done.
As for the after life - I don't know. I guess there is such. But the only reason to belielve in that is that I enjoy this myth more then I enjoy others.
I don't believe in the heaven Vs. Hell conflict.
Heaven and hell only exist upon this earth. You make your own Heaven - you make your own Hell. Again - decisions.
The only thing that actually differs us from other known forms of life.
I have found that the only reason for the so-called existing of a God, is so that people would have someone to blame for the bad things that had happened, and someone to praise for the good things.
Personally - I would prefer just taking the responsibility myself. For the good things that ever happened to me - as well as for the bad things.
Now if you're at a shitty times - all you have to do is remember that it is all up to you to change it. No one else would ever.
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04/16/2005 08:58:58 AM · #32 |
i would have to say at this stage no i dont believe in god. I believe there is a higher being than us, i dont know what, it may very well be god but i dont think so at the moment. I absolutely believe in intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. I am more likely to believe in things that have a scientific answer as to those that dont. Although i will say that since my husbands cousin died we have had some very strange things going on here and at his house. All of which i dont see any scientific answers. I am not making much sense am i? LOL
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04/16/2005 08:59:19 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Do you believe in God? How do you know that he's real? How can a person who is un-certain as to whether or not he is real ever really come to the conclusion that he is real -- short of him appearing infront of you and telling you he's real or praying for something like all the water in your glass to disapear and then it suddenly does.
I know the bible fairly well -- I went through Christian schools and church during my childhood.
Here's another one -- if you kill yourself, will you go to heaven? I can't say for certain that I agree with what I've read. People say things like you are throwing away the gift of life that God gave you, so no, you won't. Well what if that gift of life is littered with bouts of depression and possibly some other mental disfunction? Should you sit there and just live on just to some day look back at how horrible your life was and how hard you've had to work through depression, hypochondria, illness, heartache, lonliness, and fear, among other things, and you you have gained little or nothing at all from it all? |
Do I believe in God? Yes
How do I know he is real? Aside from faith? Okay. To make a very long story short -- at one time in my life I seriously questioned the Christian teachings I had been and was being taught. I questioned the very existence of God, and was on the point of becoming atheistic/agnostic, just because my life was sucking so bad at the time, and I figured there could in no way be a God. I asked, basically, if you are real, let me know in real ways. The subsequent months, showed me, that yes, there is a God, and yes, He loves me very, very, very much and has a special plan for my life.
How can a person who is uncertain be sure? I dunno. That is up to them and God, I guess. I can't prove (or disprove) God's existence based on "science" like so many people want.
Suicide and heaven? Good question. I personally believe that even if you commit suicide, if you have accepted God's son, Jesus Christ as your saviour, you can still go to Heaven. That is my opinion, of course, though i feel it is fairly well substantiated in the scripture. I know many Christians who would vehemently disagree with me though.
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04/16/2005 09:00:46 AM · #34 |
Have you ever sat in a field in the springtime with the breeze slightly rippling the grass, butterflies fluttering about, birds calling to each other? That sigh of contentment is God.
My son goes to catholic school and considers himself a christian. I more or less follow the teachings of the Tao. He understands that it is a different view of the same thing, like the blind men and the elephant.
1. Am I christian? I have explained to my son that Christian is a label. The more important question - do you try to do the things that Jesus says are important (and can be found in many religions) such as "Judge Not" and "Treat and Respect Others as you would Like to be Treated and Respected." Its the concepts that are more important.
2. If there's a God, why can't we see him? You can, every day. If you look at the world through a child's eyes. I honestly think photographers/artists have a better grasp of this than other people. They actually SEE the world rather than just looking at it.
3. Is God a man or a woman? My son and I discussed this also. I asked him to tell me some of God's 'traits' and tell me if that was 'male' or 'female.' His final conclusion - God is both.
4. How can there be different Gods? Another discussion we had. Used the analogy of the blind men and the elephant.
The world is such an amazing place. From the wrinkled smile of an old man to a new bud coming up in the springtime to a breeze blowing in off the ocean; All these put together are God.
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04/16/2005 09:44:23 AM · #35 |
by defenition: if you believe in something than it is not real, if it is real then you can´t believe in it, you just know about it´s existence.
If someone would prove without any doubt that God existed, then it would mean the end of the church as we know it.
the church excist only because they make people belive that they are the passage to God, and without the church everyone would be sent to hell.
since there is no proof of God, people belive the priests and go to confessions and donate their money to the church.
If we had proof of Gods excistance or his lack there of, then nobody would go to church or donate to it, why give the priests money if there is no God, and if God does excists then everyone would know that the church is not a part of God or the belief of eternal life or damnation.
the bible as we know it weren´t written in the time of Jesus, it was written 500 years AFTER he died on the cross, and it was written because people were starting to loose faith in the church and stopped donating to it.
the testaments weren´t so few as they are in the bible, those were only chosen because it makes the religion stronger, the makers of the Bible couldn´t put in a testament about tha marriage of Jesus, his wife and kids, his work as a carpenter or anything like that.
Jesus was a jew, everyone knows that, there were no christianity until after Jesus died at the age of 33.
in those days jewish men were obliged to marry at the age of 18, or be banished.
so since Jesus wasn´t banished, he must have married :)
there are all kinds of conflicts between the bible and other historical facts wich supports the myth that the bible were written to opress the workingclass that had no education to know the difference between the truth and the statements made in the bible.
just like the fact that catholic priest are not allowed to marry, it has nothing to do with religion, the pope and the cardinals set those rules at the time of the crusades, when a priest died with a family, the family got the estate that belonged to the priest, with no family the church got everything that belonged to the priest. that way the Vatican could finance the crusades against the non religios.
because af all the evil the church has done in the last 20 centuries I don´t believe in God if it means that I have to believe in the Church aswell.
I only believe in doing the right thing, being kind to others and use this life as best we can, because there is no proof of a second life :)
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04/16/2005 10:46:48 AM · #36 |
| When I look around at the incredible beauty and order of nature, and the miracle of my family, I can only ask; How can there not be a god? To believe there is no god would be to believe that all of this is an accident. Accidents like this don't happen. One of the greatest minds of all time, Einstein, knew that there is a god. His faith that an overall order exists pressed him on to make his discoveries. There is a way to prove that God is real. Have faith and pray. When you find that prayers are answered, you will have your proof. |
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04/16/2005 10:55:00 AM · #37 |
| These threads always end up in flame wars, it's not wise to start them 99% of the time. |
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04/16/2005 10:59:28 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
There is a way to prove that God is real. Have faith and pray. When you find that prayers are answered, you will have your proof. |
Not such a good "proof". What if you should have faith and pray and your prayers are not answered? Does that also prove there is no God?
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04/16/2005 11:22:46 AM · #39 |
If there's a personal God, as Christians perceive him (her?), and if he hears even me - an insignificant agnostic - then my request (prayer?) to him is that he simply and unmistakenly appear before me and everyone else on earth and remove the frigin' ambiguity! Aargh!! I mean, like what would it take for an omnipotent being to do that? Hell, if THAT's asking too much, then just post a message here on DPC, to this thread (like NOW, please, before any of us die and go to Hell...), and tell us what's going on. What's the point in making this so complicated?
As an analogy, ...I love my children unconditionally. If they decided they wanted to jump off a mile-high cliff, I'd grab them by the ass and pull them back, tie them down if need be, then pound some sense into them. As I understand it, Christianity tells us that if we make the wrong choices in life, then we're figuratively PUSHED off that cliff into an eternal Hell. If I were God, I'd try to pound some sense into me and everyone else on this planet. Tell us what's right and what's wrong, but don't - under any circumstances - let us fall off that cliff. THAT's unconditional love!!!
So there! |
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04/16/2005 11:39:05 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
There is a way to prove that God is real. Have faith and pray. When you find that prayers are answered, you will have your proof. |
Not such a good "proof". What if you should have faith and pray and your prayers are not answered? Does that also prove there is no God? |
Have your really tried prayer? I am surprised on a regular basis how well it works. |
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04/16/2005 11:40:43 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
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Have your really tried prayer? I am surprised on a regular basis how well it works. |
...And I'm surprised at how often, on a regular basis, it doesn't work.
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04/16/2005 11:42:40 AM · #42 |
I don't believe in any god or higher power.
I do, however, believe in the power of the human condition, the human spirit.
I do believe that prayer can work, for the right people, if only because it allows them to go about their lives with the confidence and positive outlook that is needed to either be a: successful, or b: relatively happy or c: both.
That said, it doesn't work for everyone, and certainly not for me, having no belief in a higher power to pray to. :)
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04/16/2005 12:15:20 PM · #43 |
YES I BELIEVE IN GOD. you can ask a hundred people the same question and you could end up with the same empty felling you had in the first place, because you can't believe because someone else does or does not believe.
The only answer thats going to help you is do you believe. Have you ever sat down and talked to God by yourself striping all fear, hurt, and hearacke and simply and humbley ask him yourself ARE YOU REAL then you'll see your sighns.
God is not a magic act at your local circis "no glass have empty," he formed you and is waiting for some kind of faith on your part, God is not going to force you to believe, it has to your choice and once you find him there may still be hard times but now you'll have someone holding your hand and telling you every thing is going to be ok now youll have someone to lead on.
Ask, and it shall be given you; Seek and ye shall find; Knock and it shall be opened unto you. Matthew 7:7 |
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04/16/2005 12:18:35 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by sasharose:
YES I BELIEVE IN GOD. you can ask a hundred people the same question and you could end up with the same empty felling you had in the first place, because you can't believe because someone else does or does not believe.
The only answer thats going to help you is do you believe. Have you ever sat down and talked to God by yourself striping all fear, hurt, and hearache and simply and humbley ask him yourself ARE YOU REAL then you'll see your sighns.
God is not a magic act at your local circis "no glass have empty," he formed you and is waiting for some kind of faith on your part, God is not going to force you to believe, it has to be your choice and once you find him there may still be hard times but now you'll have someone holding your hand and telling you every thing is going to be ok, now youll have someone to lead on.
Ask, and it shall be given you; Seek and ye shall find; Knock and it shall be opened unto you. Matthew 7:7 |
When I stand befor God at the end of my life I would hope that, I would have not a single bit of talent left and could say, I used everything you gave me
(Erma bombeck)
Message edited by author 2005-04-16 12:29:30. |
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04/16/2005 12:24:14 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Do you believe in God? |
Yes. Originally posted by deapee:
How do you know that he's real? |
Not sure if it is a he or she, just like finger is not sure I am. Originally posted by deapee:
How can a person who is un-certain as to whether or not he is real ever really come to the conclusion that he is real -- short of him appearing in front of you and telling you he's real or praying for something like all the water in your glass to disappear and then it suddenly does. |
Well, I appear before my finger quite often. It does what it is meant to, but I am sure it does not recognize me.
Originally posted by deapee:
I know the bible fairly well -- I went through Christian schools and church during my childhood. |
I had a thought on this once: Many people wander through life with the veils of religion covering their eyes; like in a mist they seek others to save, for they, themselves, believe they are surely lost.
Originally posted by deapee:
Here's another one -- if you kill yourself, will you go to heaven? I can't say for certain that I agree with what I've read. People say things like you are throwing away the gift of life that God gave you, so no, you won't. Well what if that gift of life is littered with bouts of depression and possibly some other mental dysfunction? Should you sit there and just live on just to some day look back at how horrible your life was and how hard you've had to work through depression, hypochondria, illness, heartache, loneliness, and fear, among other things, and you you have gained little or nothing at all from it all? |
Life, it is an odd thing. It is equal in all, it is the same spark in all that starts its journey; we call it birth. None greater none lesser. It is the spark that leaves no matter how, rich, poor, kind or hateful; and we call it death. Life, is action. To define it, makes it metaphorical thus comparable to other lives. When you do that enough times it becomes those things. One way to get rid of those bad metaphors is to give up life, but I think it better to give up the metaphors. |
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04/16/2005 12:32:17 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
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Have your really tried prayer? I am surprised on a regular basis how well it works. |
...And I'm surprised at how often, on a regular basis, it doesn't work. |
Prayer is not a form of gimme gimme or I want. Prayer is reflection, prayer is the thankfullness that you have so much (health, happiness, etc.)
I believe the world is a test, you just have to do your best, and in the end you find out how well you did, non of this God-intervention stuff. I believe we are being tested, the church teaches us how to love one another, some of us pass and some of us fail miserably.
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04/16/2005 12:40:02 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by colda:
I might have things a little backwards but I'm pretty convinced that there is a dog ;) |
Ah! The agnostic dyslexic finally sees the light! |
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04/16/2005 12:56:51 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
My son is 6 and... Here are a few questions that I've had to deal with, so any comments would be fascinating:
1. Am I a Christian?
2. If there's a God why can't we see him?
3. Is God a man or a woman?
4. How can there be different Gods - does it mean someone is lying or wrong?
5. If there's a God why doesn't he stop Adam's sister from being so sick? (She's only 4 and has leukemia)
6. Why can't I see him?
7. Is God old? If he's old when was he young?
8. Who made God?
9. Why didn't God stop the tsunami?
...Please try to leave your own beliefs out of it and answer these logically. |
1. No
2. Have you looked?
3. Is truth a girl or a boy, and what about a pebble?
4. How can there be different people, different horses, trees?
5. Perhaps there is a purpose for everything, even for illness and death?
6. Because you're young and honest.
7. He's young in the morning during spring, old on a winter's eve. -Are you sure there is a 'when'? After all, we can't see it, can we?
8. Probably the Germans, he seems well thought out and has proven relatively durable.
9. Why don't you stop trampling the grass?
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04/16/2005 01:07:48 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by kyebosh:
These threads always end up in flame wars, it's not wise to start them 99% of the time. |
I've seen lots of these threads, though they never degenerated into flame wars, they always did degenerate into Creationist versus Evolutionist debates. There was always eventually too much to read & type, and nobody was ever converted to the other side.
daepee's question is an intersting one. I'd be very interested to see numerical results from a poll on this site, the monitor poll is getting stale anyway. |
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04/16/2005 02:07:33 PM · #50 |
Deapee
Thoughts from Within
This way of life is the farthest from nature and human spirit it̢۪s ever been for humans. This causes all sorts of problems mentally and physically, all sorts of confusion and despair can set in. Our culture is built on principles of personal ownership and greed. We are trained to grow up and work jobs we hate, to buy stuff we don̢۪t need.
The god argument is going to be pretty pointless soon as this unsustainable way of life inches ever closer to hitting the wall of reality.
My advice, stick to what's real and try and consider perspective when your alone in your head.
"Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings, admiring, asking and observing, there we enter the realm of Art and Science."
-Albert Einstein |
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