Big Bang and creation of the universe

04/13/2005 03:27:41 PM · #326

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by prozac:
Adam was warned not to touch it... he knew that there were concequences. He had a choice to make - on his own - and he made the wrong one. Do we have to know EXACTLY what bad things will happen before we make a descision? Is it not enought just to know that something bad will happen? Maybe a poor example, but here goes: In the U.S. many people eat poorly and live a sedentary life-style. They have plenty of advance warning about all the diseases they may end up with. How many of us sit around and say, "well, heart-failure I don't mind, but I guess I'll have to change if I'll end up with diabetes."
God gave adam a choice and he chose. We also have choices every day and sometimes we choose well, other times we choose poorly. When we choose poorly do we have the right to sit back and say, "God you set me up! I didn't know that would happen!"

But didnâ��t God, being omniscient, know Adam would eat the forbidden fruit even before Adam was created?

Yes, that's why the plan of salvation through Christ was part of God's plan from the very beginning. Until Adam ate of the fruit, he was sinless. When he partook of the fruit, first, he died spiritually, and secondly, he became subject to physical death as well. From that time forward, blood sacrifices were required by God to atone for the sins of man. In fact, God Himself performed the first required sacrifice by slaying an animal from which to fashion the coverings for Adam and Eve. And from that time on all men inherited Adam's sin nature - all, that is except Christ, because He was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit ( no Human ( Adamic ) father ). He is called the second Adam because, like Adam, He was a complete being, both spiritually and physically. But, unlike Adam, Christ did not "partake of the fruit" - that is, sin. So when he was killed, he satisfied the requirement for a blood sacrifice - in fact once for all. Hence, from the time of Christ onward, although we are still subject to the sinful nature of Adam by our physical birth, we can also be born again through the spirit of God, because our sins have been atoned for ( past, present, and future ).

By the way, Adam and Eve were vegetarians. In fact, ALL animals were vegetarians prior to the flood - there were no omnivores or carnivores. It was only AFTER the flood that God informed Noah and his family that they were permitted to eat meat. That's why there weren't any problems having lions and gazelles sharing a room on the ark. When Christ returns, so does that status -

Isaiah 11:6-7 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

prozac

Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM

04/13/2005 03:27:46 PM · #327

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by hopper:
I understand what you're saying, but it seems to contradict. Not being able to will yourself to do something isn't "free" will. That would be more like limited will.

If you're asking why God doesn't just make His own existence a little more obvious ... I guess I'd have to say I wish He did. I simply don't know ...

... but that alone doesn't mean He doesn't exist, it just means He didn't ask for my opinion before doing things :)

What Iâ��m drive at is this: How can a perfect being create an imperfect creature? Isnâ��t it within his nature to only create perfectly? Even with the existence of free will, how can a creature created by a perfect being choose imperfectly?

Is it possible that Adam (and concequently us) was created a perfect being - that he was just given the choice as to whether of not he wanted to stay that way?

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

04/13/2005 03:28:30 PM · #328

there's only one ... Jesus Christ

He did what we were unable to do in order that we would be justified in Gods eyes. A justification that we cannot attain on our own, and that was not needed before Adam and Eve ate. He restored the relationship that was "killed" as a result of "choosing wrong".

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by prozac:
Mindless creatures that would do whatever they are told.

Please give me an example of any living creature with the ability to choose that does whatever it's told.

04/13/2005 03:31:53 PM · #329

Originally posted by milo655321:

...how can a creature created by a perfect being choose imperfectly?

...unless it's by design, and if it IS by design, then why punish the creature for doing what it was designed to do? What is the point of a test if you designed all the parts and already knew the outcome before you started?

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 15:36:45.

04/13/2005 03:42:47 PM · #330

Originally posted by prozac:

Is it possible that Adam (and concequently us) was created a perfect being - that he was just given the choice as to whether of not he wanted to stay that way?

So you're saying a being, created by a perfect being who can only create perfectly, chose imperfectly.

Edited for misplaced comma.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 15:49:33.

04/13/2005 03:46:06 PM · #331

Originally posted by hopper:

there's only one ... Jesus Christ

You're using the existence of Hercules to support a claim for the existence of Zeus. I have a slight problem with that logic.

04/13/2005 03:50:00 PM · #332

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by milo655321:
...how can a creature created by a perfect being choose imperfectly?

...unless it's by design, and if it IS by design, then why punish the creature for doing what it was designed to do? What is the point of a test if you designed all the parts and already knew the outcome before you started?

Before my wife and I decided to have children, we knew ( parts of ) the outcome, but we did it anyway. We didn't create children to TEST them, or to PUNISH them. We did it because we needed a greater outlet for our love - we wanted to share our lives with them and love them. We also knew that from the moment of their birth ( even before ) that they would exercise free will. And, for what it's worth, we HAVE at times made plans predicated on the pre-determination that they would make bad choices.

04/13/2005 03:56:13 PM · #333

Originally posted by RonB:

When your children made wrong choices, do you ever punished them eternally?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/13/2005 03:58:36 PM · #334

Originally posted by RonB:

...we HAVE at times made plans predicated on the pre-determination that they would make bad choices.

You didn't plan a test that you already knew would fail, then punish the participants for an outcome that you saw before you started. If you could foresee the resulting failure, you wouldn't tell your children not to engage in pre-marital sex, then put a prostitute in their bedroom along with a pimp to talk them into it.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 16:05:20.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/13/2005 04:25:51 PM · #335

Originally posted by prozac:

A little study of the human body makes it very dificult to imagine that we could have just evolved on our own.

A little study of the human body makes it very dificult to imagine that anyone could have designed it completely from scratch.

04/13/2005 04:28:25 PM · #336

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by RonB:
Before my wife and I decided to have children, we knew ( parts of ) the outcome, but we did it anyway. We didn't create children to TEST them, or to PUNISH them. We did it because we needed a greater outlet for our love - we wanted to share our lives with them and love them. We also knew that from the moment of their birth ( even before ) that they would exercise free will. And, for what it's worth, we HAVE at times made plans predicated on the pre-determination that they would make bad choices.

When your children made wrong choices, do you ever punished them eternally?

Nope. But when we say "Do that and your going to be grounded for a month", guess what? If they do that, they're grounded for a month.
God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and they died. Some choices have greater consequences than others. I think that most thinking adults can understand that.

FWIW, Scripture doesn't say whether Adam and/or Eve were "punished" eternally. And, suffice it to say, God does not and will not "punish" ANYONE eternally - their fate is in their own hands, as it were. He always provides ample opportunity for everyone to choose whether they will accept His offer of eternal life or not. And, according to Christian Scripture, that offer is predicated on the acceptance of Christ's atonement. Part of omniscience, however, is that before the beginnings of the world, he knew of each one, and what they would choose. You DO have free will, but God already knows what you have, and will ultimately, decide about His offer.

04/13/2005 04:46:16 PM · #337

Originally posted by scalvert:

Yes I did. And not just once. It's how children learn that actions have consequences. The reason that they choose NOT to have pre-marital sex is based on a level of acceptance that Mom & Dad haven't steered me wrong about OTHER less significant decisions where the wrong choice led to an undesirable outcome. But there is a BIG difference between a test, where SUCCESS is the goal, and temptation, where FAILURE is the goal. God tests and desires and applauds success, Satan tempts and desires and applauds failure.

Originally posted by scalvert:

If you could foresee the resulting failure, you wouldn't tell your children not to engage in pre-marital sex, then put a prostitute in their bedroom along with a pimp to talk them into it.

You're right. I would first tell them that I had installed a hidden camcorder in their room.
Did Adam and Eve REALLY believe that God couldn't see them when they ate that fruit?

04/13/2005 04:54:46 PM · #338

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by prozac:
A little study of the human body makes it very dificult to imagine that we could have just evolved on our own.

A little study of the human body makes it very dificult to imagine that anyone could have designed it completely from scratch.

Then imagine that God built up the current design slowly by creating a milion or a billion other universes before creating this one. And then destroyed them all. Kinda like first he built a Wright-brothers type universe, then a prop-driven universe, then a dual-prop universe, then a turbo-prop type universe, then a jet-universe, then, before you knew it, an intergalactic proton-drive type universe - the kind we have now.
Not a very accurate picture of an omniscient and omnipotent God, but hey, if you INSIST that it takes TIME for God to do anything, then certainly in the eternity past, He would have HAD the time and power and knowledge to do that.
Of course, the evolutionists claim the the human body WAS built from scratch - scratch in the primordial ooze followed by a few hundred million years of refinement. Surely, since God is eternal, He could have done a much better job of refinement given the extra time.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 17:01:06.

04/13/2005 05:02:28 PM · #339

Originally posted by RonB:

God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and they died. Some choices have greater consequences than others. I think that most thinking adults can understand that.

You can't used the fact that people die as evidence that the Garden of Eden story is factual.

I'll try to address you other points further (depending on the internet) in two to three hours from now. At work, getting busy.

04/13/2005 05:10:30 PM · #340

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by RonB:
God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and they died. Some choices have greater consequences than others. I think that most thinking adults can understand that.

You can't used the fact that people die as evidence that the Garden of Eden story is factual.

So, what's the prevailing scientific theory of why people die?

04/13/2005 05:20:23 PM · #341

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by scalvert:
If you could foresee the resulting failure, you wouldn't tell your children not to engage in pre-marital sex, then put a prostitute in their bedroom along with a pimp to talk them into it.

You're right. I would first tell them that I had installed a hidden camcorder in their room.

..and THEN you would proceed to design the test that you already foresaw would be a failure? You'd know that the participants would fail against the temptation of a prostitute and pimp that you went out of your way to create, but would forge ahead anyway. Good plan.

Originally posted by RonB:

God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and...

...they DIDN'T die. They were cast out of the garden and continued to live. They only way to view this prophecy of death as true is to claim that our hapless diners would have otherwise lived forever, or at least much longer than the "normal" lifespan we see in similar animals.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 18:08:30.

04/13/2005 05:28:26 PM · #342

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by scalvert:
If you could foresee the resulting failure, you wouldn't tell your children not to engage in pre-marital sex, then put a prostitute in their bedroom along with a pimp to talk them into it.

You're right. I would first tell them that I had installed a hidden camcorder in their room.

..and THEN you would proceed to design the test that you already foresaw would be a failure? Good plan.

Originally posted by RonB:
God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and...

...they DIDN'T die. They were cast out of the garden and continued to live. They only way to view this prophecy of death as true is to claim that our hapless diners would have otherwise lived forever, or at least much longer than the "normal" lifespan we see in similar animals.

Your response is amazing. Here is what Genesis 3:1-4 ( emphasis mine )

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

04/13/2005 05:29:47 PM · #343

Duplicate post-

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 18:02:50.

jmritz

Fujifilm X30

Custom Made Pinhole

04/13/2005 06:11:14 PM · #344

Now back to the Big Bang. I postulate that the Big Bang and Gods creation of the universe are equally imposable. Why not just admit this so called universe was always here and will always be here. It is in flux and the minuet changes we see in our tiny speck of observation granted to us because of our ever so short life spans and our limited knowledge and because of our unlimited ability to consider ourselves so gifted with THE ANSWERS we come up with these cockamamie ideas to begin with.
:)

04/13/2005 06:11:49 PM · #345

Originally posted by RonB:

God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and...

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RonB:

Your response is amazing. ... the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

MY response is amazing? You're saying that the serpent's prediction was right and God's was wrong.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 18:13:03.

MadMordegon

04/13/2005 06:29:22 PM · #346

Originally posted by prozac:

granted, I don't know a whole lot about the theory of evolution

And that is usually the problem. A good place to fill that knowledge gap would be here: //www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/ and //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution, also //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology

MadMordegon

04/13/2005 06:30:10 PM · #347

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RonB:
...we HAVE at times made plans predicated on the pre-determination that they would make bad choices.

You didn't plan a test that you already knew would fail, then punish the participants for an outcome that you saw before you started. If you could foresee the resulting failure, you wouldn't tell your children not to engage in pre-marital sex, then put a prostitute in their bedroom along with a pimp to talk them into it.

LOL great analogy, hilarious too.

MadMordegon

04/13/2005 07:02:38 PM · #348

After finishing to this threads current position Iâ��ve come to the following conclusion;

This is not a debate. Debates are argued logically and grounded in fact. If your argument is flawed and the facts bear this out, you lose.

Quoting a non factual book and its many interpretations vs. 145 years of scientific research and pear consensus in the subject of evolution is not a debate.

Message edited by author 2005-04-13 19:02:52.

04/13/2005 07:02:42 PM · #349

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by RonB:
God said "Do that and you shall surely die and guess what? They did that, and they died. Some choices have greater consequences than others. I think that most thinking adults can understand that.

You can't used the fact that people die as evidence that the Garden of Eden story is factual.

So, what's the prevailing scientific theory of why people die?

Could you be more clear? I just want to make sure that I have this correct. Do you, in fact, contend that the fact that people die is evidence for the veracity of the story of the expulsion from the Garden of Eden in the book Genesis in the Christian Bible? Please, I just want to make absolutely sure.