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04/13/2005 12:17:00 PM · #1 |
I've noticed from several ribbon winners that they have said or elluded to the fact that they had help.
It would be nice to have a mother or sister who was a professional photographer to help me... but that wouldn't be fair, to me.
Opinions?
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04/13/2005 12:34:23 PM · #2 |
well, I think it says a lot about who they really are as a photographer...I have a friend that's a photographer and she won't enter anything unless she gets approval from others ..I submit blindly and I prefer it that way..
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04/13/2005 12:35:57 PM · #3 |
Just to clarify I mean actual physical help. Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.. and I don't mean DPC rules, I mean personal opinions on this. Ribbon winners having help.
Message edited by author 2005-04-13 12:49:13.
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04/13/2005 12:40:04 PM · #4 |
Having help is fine, as long as they are clearly the photographer. By that I mean that the concept should be theirs, and they should actually do the work. Suggestions as to set-up details, evaluation of results, editing suggestions (not someone lese actually DOING the editing) are all acceptable.
It's not really possible for us to police this, it is up to the individual user to do what's right, and not submit what is substantially someone else's work.
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04/13/2005 01:04:28 PM · #5 |
Is it fair that I have gotten more help from DPC than others because I have submitted to more challenges than some people? Help is help. Whether you get it from a person standing next to you or from reading books. The amount of help people receive is never going to be the same. Bear_Music has claimed to have been helped by Ansel Adams. I dont even know a local wedding photographer let alone anyone more professional or famous. Is that fair?
What it boils down to is that DPC is a place to learn or to compete for virtual ribbons. I personally dont care how someone learns as long as it is them actually doing the work. Of course if someone really is letting someone else basically do all the work for them to win a virtual ribbon then they have lost the point of the site and will end up just not getting much satisfaction from it. |
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04/13/2005 01:13:30 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Having help is fine, as long as they are clearly the photographer. By that I mean that the concept should be theirs... |
This is a relatively new opinion, isn't it? I don't see that there's anything "wrong" with shooting something that someone else gave me the idea for. "Concept" is a pretty big word, in my understanding, isn't it? I don't see why I should feel guilty, or that I would need to be policed, just because I shot something that someone thought might be a good idea. Geesh. :) |
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04/13/2005 01:24:07 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Just to clarify I mean actual physical help. Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.. and I don't mean DPC rules, I mean personal opinions on this. Ribbon winners having help. |
In the abandoned building challenge I used my husband's help to get me on site.
In the bored challenge my son carried my tripod.
In the cemetary challenge my husband pushed the remote to snap the picture (I was in it and hence, too far away).
They gave me their personal opinions and choices on their favorite shots (which I have learned not to listen to! - See lines challenge).
But, in the end, all choices, ideas, thoughts, editing, cropping are ultimately mine.
d
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04/13/2005 01:24:51 PM · #8 |
In some ways DCP always is help, the contests themselves provide a source of inspiration. I still have an idea I want to try for the duck challenge, and one of these days I will have a picture for it :-)
Looking at what people like in general (the ribbon wins) plus (especially) how they accomplished it is help. Following the tutorial (or books, or having someone hand-hold you through the difficulties of paint programs etc...) all are help. I would hope that the honour of winning a virtual ribbon is a reward for what you have learned, not something that you would have someone else do for you. Taken to an extreme could buy a shot off one of the sites better photographers claim it as your own all for the ribbon shot, but really would anyone do such a thing? And if they would who really loses? Only themselves, the rest of us get to learn from the shot. |
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04/13/2005 01:27:27 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by moodville:
Is it fair that I have gotten more help from DPC than others because I have submitted to more challenges than some people? Help is help. Whether you get it from a person standing next to you or from reading books. The amount of help people receive is never going to be the same. Bear_Music has claimed to have been helped by Ansel Adams. I dont even know a local wedding photographer let alone anyone more professional or famous. Is that fair?
What it boils down to is that DPC is a place to learn or to compete for virtual ribbons. I personally dont care how someone learns as long as it is them actually doing the work. Of course if someone really is letting someone else basically do all the work for them to win a virtual ribbon then they have lost the point of the site and will end up just not getting much satisfaction from it. |
That is well put. I am here to learn and never get help. I used to ask opinions on photos from non DPC members but soon realized that I should enter what I want regardless. |
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04/13/2005 02:57:14 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Just to clarify I mean actual physical help. Going to the shoot with you, helping you set up, proofing the shots, giving advice, any of that.. and I don't mean DPC rules, I mean personal opinions on this. Ribbon winners having help. |
Actually I see two different "categories" of help in this breakdown. One category is what we call an "assistant"; someone to schlep around the equipment, do the heavy lifting, change the film in the camreas, help with makeup and lighting, keep the exposure books, record the shot logs, stuff like that. Physical help. The other is to accept feedback, or input, regarding the techniques being used pre- and post-shot.
I doubt that anyone would seriously question the "physical help" category; why should we care if a photographer has others helping him/her on the shoot? In fact, some shoots REQUIRE it, if only for such mundane issues as crowd control and the like. I suppose some might think it "unfair" to employ, say, a "stlist" on set to do the makeup, or the prepping of the food, whatever, but this seems silly to me; take that to an extreme, you shouldn't shoot any food you didn't cook yourself or any models whose hair was professionally cut and styled the day before the shoot.
The second category of help is somewhat more problematical; the seeking-out of advice on such issues as composition, post-processing techniques, and at a very fundamental level "Which image should I enter?" For fairly obvious reasons a lot of people seem to think this is "unfair", but I believe that's misguided thinking. In the end, the decision and execution are yours. What does it matter where the input comes from? The times I've asked others which image they prefer, and gone with the consensus, I've gotten hammered anyway. And I can't imagine why anyone would complain if, for example, "Member X" PM'd me and asked me "How do you get that misty effect and still keep the subject sharp?" and I obliged by sending him a description of how to achieve that effect. Isn't that what we're HERE for?
This whole "go it alone" mentality seems to me strangely at odds with what I perceive as the strength of our community; the willingness of members to share their expertise with all askers. If I really CARED about ribbons and such, I'd hoard my secrets (such as they are) carefully in the hopes that I could steal a march on everyone else, wouldn't I? And if we all did that, how much use would our community be then? It would just be a "look at me!" site instead of ana ctual, thriving place for people to learn and grow within.
So my advice is, don't even THINK about stuff like that, just be here now with an open heart and mind.
Robt. |
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04/13/2005 03:09:40 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Having help is fine, as long as they are clearly the photographer. By that I mean that the concept should be theirs... |
This is a relatively new opinion, isn't it? I don't see that there's anything "wrong" with shooting something that someone else gave me the idea for. "Concept" is a pretty big word, in my understanding, isn't it? I don't see why I should feel guilty, or that I would need to be policed, just because I shot something that someone thought might be a good idea. Geesh. :) |
OK, I certainly didn't mean that you couldn't shoot something that had been shot before. Jeez, nobody could submit anything, since it's ALL been done before, LOL.
FWIW, I was talking about a hypothetical submittor and their "helper." If someone were getting "help" to the point that the photo really was conceived and done by the helper, then the submittor would not qualify as the photographer. The rules state that you must be the photographer; that idea is certainly not new. But thanks for suggesting that I had a new idea, I'll consider it a complimnent ;-)
As for "policing," I believe I stated that we cound NOT police this, nor would we want to, IMO. NOTE THE "IMO." However, if it were brought to our attention that someone submitted a shot for which they were not the photographer, we would need to uphold the site rules, and act. I hope that's clear.
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04/13/2005 03:29:58 PM · #12 |
Like kirbic said 'there is no way to police this'. That is where honesty comes into play. And out of all the rules we have I think this one is very simple and can be interrupted exactly the way the site intended it to be interrupted.
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.
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04/13/2005 03:40:51 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
Like kirbic said 'there is no way to police this'. That is where honesty comes into play. And out of all the rules we have I think this one is very simple and can be interrupted exactly the way the site intended it to be interrupted.
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand. |
Oh boy, LOL. I could get nasty here and ask you to define "collaboration" but I won't :-)
Robt. |
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04/13/2005 03:54:10 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by SDW65:
Like kirbic said 'there is no way to police this'. That is where honesty comes into play. And out of all the rules we have I think this one is very simple and can be interrupted exactly the way the site intended it to be interrupted.
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand. |
Oh boy, LOL. I could get nasty here and ask you to define "collaboration" but I won't :-)
Robt. |
Thanks for being kind. :)
I see it as defined
1. To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort. |
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04/13/2005 03:57:23 PM · #15 |
Would it be the general opinion that conferences between a husband and wife about techniques, the best crop, the best color management, whether to sharpen, other compositions to try, suggestions about zoom vs. wide angle, so forth and so on... are "collaboration"? The clause was inserted , I believe, (and I know pretty well due to my wife being on SC) to protect against those who wanted to make a shot, then allow someone else to post process it, and then enter it.
I think you make a good point, Robert, with all the new people that are here - what IS collaboration? Are Karma and I breaking the rules when we bounce our ideas off each other or when I tell her how to use curves to virtually eliminate the blue channel???? (Purely exemplary, no real point to the blue channel). |
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04/13/2005 04:39:21 PM · #16 |
The kind of collaboration refered-to is, for example, where a class collaborates on a single image and it's submitted through one group account. There is no individual attribution for the photo.
I believe we have one or two such group arrangements at this time. |
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04/13/2005 04:40:36 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Would it be the general opinion that conferences between a husband and wife about techniques, the best crop, the best color management, whether to sharpen, other compositions to try, suggestions about zoom vs. wide angle, so forth and so on... are "collaboration"? The clause was inserted , I believe, (and I know pretty well due to my wife being on SC) to protect against those who wanted to make a shot, then allow someone else to post process it, and then enter it.
I think you make a good point, Robert, with all the new people that are here - what IS collaboration? Are Karma and I breaking the rules when we bounce our ideas off each other or when I tell her how to use curves to virtually eliminate the blue channel???? (Purely exemplary, no real point to the blue channel). |
You're discussing technique with my DOG? Why, that shameless hussy! Wait 'til I catch her! She hasn't given me a single suggestion yet, and I'm the one that FEEDS her!
On a more sober note, I don't consider ANY sort of discussion and/or evaluation to be "collaboration", for the simple reason that it's completely impossible to control. As far as I'm concerned, speaking of post-processing in specific, as long as you DO it yourself (don't expect me to post-process your image for you and send it back so you can enter it...) the amount of advice that precedes it and feedback that follows it is irrelevant; that's what we're all here for.
Robt. |
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04/13/2005 04:43:46 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
...As far as I'm concerned, speaking of post-processing in specific, as long as you DO it yourself (don't expect me to post-process your image for you and send it back so you can enter it...) the amount of advice that precedes it and feedback that follows it is irrelevant; that's what we're all here for.
Robt. |
Well said! :-)
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04/13/2005 04:54:32 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The kind of collaboration refered-to is, for example, where a class collaborates on a single image and it's submitted through one group account. There is no individual attribution for the photo.
I believe we have one or two such group arrangements at this time. |
I didn't know this could be done that's interesting.
How many members in the groups ?. This could be a good thing for camera clubs or schools. |
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04/13/2005 04:57:06 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
You're discussing technique with my DOG? Why, that shameless hussy! Wait 'til I catch her! She hasn't given me a single suggestion yet, and I'm the one that FEEDS her!
Robt. |
Oh, boy, I could say all sorts of things here, but I'm not going to go one bit further... :)
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04/13/2005 05:02:03 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
As far as I'm concerned, speaking of post-processing in specific, as long as you DO it yourself (don't expect me to post-process your image for you and send it back so you can enter it...) the amount of advice that precedes it and feedback that follows it is irrelevant; that's what we're all here for.
Robt. |
So come on over and stand behind me and tell me, step by step, what to do to edit it. I'll actually push the buttons, so I'll be doing the work.
I will be using your brain though. Now since i used your brain, whose work is it?
there is a fine line (somewhere) that divides your work from my work. I'll meet with friends to discuss ideas, get a chef to cook it, a lighting expert to light it, a set designer to build the set, a strong back to lug the equipment and set up the camera, use Auto mode for the exposure and i'll have my son push the button cause i wanna be in the pic...all i did was turn on the camera and frame the image. I followed directions to edit it, and got opinions and concensus on which shot to enter.
Hmm...i coordinated it. Was i the photographer? As long as i don't ribbon 'we' don't care. Should I get a ribbon or 4 or 8 or 40 - at some point 'we' (the DPC community) will care.
Just like we have very distinct rules on editing, perhaps we need some communal concensus on the creation of the photo.
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04/13/2005 05:08:52 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The kind of collaboration refered-to is, for example, where a class collaborates on a single image and it's submitted through one group account. There is no individual attribution for the photo.
I believe we have one or two such group arrangements at this time. |
I didn't know this could be done that's interesting.
How many members in the groups ?. This could be a good thing for camera clubs or schools. |
It's really intended for individuals who are (for various reasons) unable to actively manage an ordinary account themselves, not just for any affinity group. For example, I might be in favor of setting up something for a class of Kindergartners, but not Fifth-graders ... |
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04/13/2005 05:31:37 PM · #23 |
This has turned into a great discussion. I am of the mind that a photographer is more than the person who pushes the button.
Lets say for example that I am new to photography. My sister has been into 35mm for years and years and knows a lot about photography. I tell her about DPC and the current challenge, we discuss ideas, we pick a location and she accompanies me to the shoot, helps me set things up, helps me with every aspect except pushing the button. Am I The Photographer or Is She?
Message edited by author 2005-04-13 17:32:13.
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04/14/2005 03:03:00 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by bear_music:
As far as I'm concerned, speaking of post-processing in specific, as long as you DO it yourself (don't expect me to post-process your image for you and send it back so you can enter it...) the amount of advice that precedes it and feedback that follows it is irrelevant; that's what we're all here for.
Robt. |
So come on over and stand behind me and tell me, step by step, what to do to edit it. I'll actually push the buttons, so I'll be doing the work.
I will be using your brain though. Now since i used your brain, whose work is it?
Happens all the time, physical presence isn't required. There are tutorials here in DPC that accomplish this, there are countless instructional articles on the net, there are books and videos; there are MANY ways to receive setp-by-step instruction, and it's one of the main ways we learn.
there is a fine line (somewhere) that divides your work from my work. I'll meet with friends to discuss ideas, get a chef to cook it, a lighting expert to light it, a set designer to build the set, a strong back to lug the equipment and set up the camera, use Auto mode for the exposure and i'll have my son push the button cause i wanna be in the pic...all i did was turn on the camera and frame the image. I followed directions to edit it, and got opinions and concensus on which shot to enter.
Hmm...i coordinated it. Was i the photographer? As long as i don't ribbon 'we' don't care. Should I get a ribbon or 4 or 8 or 40 - at some point 'we' (the DPC community) will care.
This is something that's of necessity left to the individual's sense of honor and fairness. We, the community, have no way of policing it. I agree with you that in this extreme case "you" are not 'really" the photographer, but how many times is this likely to happen, realistically speaking? It's sort of setting up a straw man as far as this discussion is concerned....
Just like we have very distinct rules on editing, perhaps we need some communal concensus on the creation of the photo. |
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04/14/2005 10:08:48 AM · #25 |
It appears to me that bear_music and kirbic are drawing the line dividing allowable assistance and illegal help at a point of "it's impossible to control". IMHO, this is a very poor point at which to draw it. As Prof_Fate has pointed out, there will come a time when "'we' (the DPC community) will care." even if it is very difficult or nearly impossible to control.
Of course the mission here is learning and teaching. But the challenges, with their element of competition, is what motivates us to keep learning, and trying new things. The more level that playing field the better it is for all of us. An overly permissive attitude regarding the rule on ownership gives shelter to those who would abuse it at the expense of those who seek to comply with it. Some of the remarks in this thread seem to encourage people to stretch the rule.
How far is too far? At some point we will have to make a decision. In regards to asking others about which shot to enter-- obviously it would be nearly impossible to prevent someone from asking a family member which to enter when a photographer is truly at an impass between two photos, but you can still try to discourage such; at the other extreme, is it impossible to say in these forums that soliciting help in making that decision should be avoided instead of having a totally "anything goes" approach to it? Would you still think that it was permissible because it is impossible to enforce if someone were found to be posting in a public forum several finished images and asking total strangers which would get the better score? What if they did this repeatedly? What if they did it for every challenge?
Just as we rely on the honesty of each person entering to comply with the rules, the community relies on it's leaders, as heard in these forums, to give guidance on how to comply. Saying that we are not going to bother to police the things that are difficult to enforce is, in a way, abdicating responsibility.
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