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 04/02/2005 10:41:49 AM · #26
Originally posted by mffnqueen:
We've had friends die before, and we definitely were more impacted by this, at least in the short term. You may think it wasn't "tragic"....I'm speaking as their friend, and to us, it WAS tragic), but you didn't put in the millions of hours and incredible heart they had for this..


Alright, I usually don't get involved in threads here, but this is just too ridiculous not to reply. I'm not from Texas and I have no idea what the hell a yell leader is. So, I looked it up, and from what I understand it is basically a male cheerleader since Texas A&M has no female cheerleaders.

Comparing losing that election impacting you all more than the death of a friend in the short term is absolutely absurd! The presidency is an infinitely more elite and prestigous position, and I highly doubt any of the losing candidates would tell you that it was more of a let down than losing a friend or loved one.

Originally posted by mffnqueen:
WFor some of these guys, they've been waiting for this day since they were children. That's like 18 years of build up only to be completely rejected.


I don't know any small male children who's dream it is to be a male cheerleader, but hey I'm not from Texas so I can't comprehend where you're coming from here. When they first set about on their dream of being a yell leader, they knew only X number of people are accepted and that their chances were very slim.

They tried their hardest and lost. Rejection was a very real and likely possibility for most of the candidates anyway. If they hadn't considered the possibility on losing, then they were living in fantasy land. Everybody thinks they're going win or have a chance of winning, but most people don't plain and simple. Welcome to reality, hope you enjoy your stay.
04/02/2005 10:48:10 AM · #27
Originally posted by lykofos:
Welcome to reality, hope you enjoy your stay.


Well put.
 04/02/2005 11:06:26 AM · #28
"The event in question were the campus elections. Three of my friends were running for the top position (Yell Leader, if you know anything about Texas A&M), and they had poured just immense amounts of energy and spirit and dedication into their campaign, not to mention thousands of dollars and hours."

Please tell me you're joking! I thought maybe someone died or something. They're upset because you took pictures of them for loosing as a cheer leader?!?!!! If you are going to question your role as a photojournalist over something like that, than you have a long way to go!
Like I wrote earlier in this tread, I've had to deal with taking pictures of starving children, death and war. One day you may have to take pictures of that sort of thing. You have to get a stomach for it and keep in mind WHY you are taking the photos.
On the flip side, you can always find ways of illustrating the story without invading someone's private moment. You could have taken pictures of a winning cheer leader, or maybe a more artistic shot of people holding ballots or someone looking at the posted results. Many times you can think outside the box instead of only thinking about capturing the literal moment. For instance, a photo of a football team celebrating their victory may be a much more impactful photo than of the player making the winning touchdown, even though the later may be a great action shot, emotion wins out.
When going on assignment, stop, and anylize the situation. Ask yourself what you WHAT story to convey in your photos and then think of several ways to best tell that story. Once you've gotten those photos, look to take other photos that also help support the story.
 04/02/2005 11:23:34 AM · #29
Like it's been said before, photojournalism is not for everyone. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Photojournalism is one of those jobs where you need professional detachment. Sometimes it comes naturally, sometimes it just takes time, and for others it doesn't happen at all. Some people are too emotional and can't get into the mindset of detachment. It can be hard to have an attitude of nonchalance in an emotional situation.

Edited to reflect just the photojournalism aspect of the post. Removed the ethics/philosophical dissertation.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 23:00:33.
 04/02/2005 11:57:51 AM · #30
Muffqueen, you sound like someone that has a big heart. Get out of photojournalism. You don't have the make up for it. It sounds like you would be great at kids portraits and weddings. If friends are more important than the story you need a new field.. Get past this thing and move on with your life. I agree with one of the other comments, about a bunch of cry babies. This is a big mean cruel world. Cowgirl up gal...
 04/02/2005 12:05:23 PM · #31
i do some photojournalism, i recently photographed people outside grieving at a memorial.

i was able to do it because I didn't know the people, otherwise I would have refused the assignment. i don't believe personal and business should clash like that.
04/02/2005 12:08:31 PM · #32
I'm disgusted by the responses of some of you guys. Have you never emotionally invested yourself in something?

I understand the question and the situation...I think it's completely valid and something that needs to be worked through. There were some good answers at the beginning of this thread that apply to photographing sad people, no matter what their reason is for being sad.

Ignore the rest...

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 12:09:06.
 04/02/2005 12:10:12 PM · #33
i also understand the situation.

journalism involves being non-bias. if you are too emotionally attached to the subject, i don't think it's right to do the assignment.
04/02/2005 12:13:53 PM · #34
Originally posted by mffnqueen:
See, the reason I didn't explain what the event was at first was because I knew a lot of you would be like, "oh, it's just an election, no big deal," but the fact is, it was a HUGE deal to them. We've had friends die before, and we definitely were more impacted by this, at least in the short term. You may think it wasn't "tragic" (by the way, I don't really appreciate whoever challenged my journalistic ethics on that one.. I'm not writing an article here, I'm speaking as their friend, and to us, it WAS tragic), but you didn't put in the millions of hours and incredible heart they had for this.. For some of these guys, they've been waiting for this day since they were children. That's like 18 years of build up only to be completely rejected. Please don't just tell me "Oh, elections aren't that big of a deal, don't worry about it." Who are we to cast judgment on other people's grief based on our own standards?


So you are saying everyone was impacted more by this than by a friends death? No offense but you people have your priorities seriously messed up. There can be other elections - there cannot be but one life.

I see the same stuff. I am a full time college student at a University myself. But the difference is that I was in the military for 5 years and have had experiances well beyond that of a normal college student - which includes seeing friends die. I do not mean to down play the importance of student advisory council elections, being homecoming queen, being Frat president, ect. but come on..... you are in college and if you are lucky, you still have 60+ years on this planet.

To be more impacted by election results (regardless of the election level) than by having a friend die is a little messed up if you ask me.
 04/02/2005 12:18:13 PM · #35
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I'm disgusted by the responses of some of you guys. Have you never emotionally invested yourself in something?


I can see why the person posting could have mixed emotions about the subject of taking pictures of hurt friends - regardless of the reason they were hurt.

But to be so hung up over something so trivial when you look at life in the long term....
 04/02/2005 12:24:49 PM · #36
I'm a photojournalist and when I pick up my assignments at the newspaper or sent out to cover an auto accident or a hostage situation,etc. I'm expected to get the shots for the paper, if I can't handle the assignments I will be expected to turn in my cameras and leave.
 04/02/2005 12:25:27 PM · #37
Originally posted by Physics_Guru:
But to be so hung up over something so trivial when you look at life in the long term....

at age 20, 5 years is 1/4 of their life
at age 30, 5 years is 1/6 of their life
at age 50, 5 years is 1/10 of their life
and so on

it really depends on where you are as to what long term means...otherwise, do you think teenagers would be such careless drivers? in their minds, they are immortal...
 04/02/2005 12:42:37 PM · #38
So you are saying everyone was impacted more by this than by a friends death? No offense but you people have your priorities seriously messed up. There can be other elections - there cannot be but one life.

Man your are right on. I have never seen a bunch or cry babies. Come one peopel COWBOY UP here. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Get a life and move on... Maybe we should get teh Draft back so taht everyone has to serve Our Great Country. Then amybe we wouldn't be raising a bunch (AS LARRY THE CABLE GUY says, and I QUOTE, "a bunch of tufo fartin tree huggin faries"text" And yea I am a redneck ar heart. But comeone people. Toughin up...
 04/02/2005 03:48:51 PM · #39
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I'm disgusted by the responses of some of you guys. Have you never emotionally invested yourself in something?


Yes, I've been emotionally invested in something, but I, personally, choose to invest my emotions on more private things. An election is a VERY public event and as such, whether you win or whether you lose, you should know that there is going to be someone taking your picture because you are very much in the eye of the public.
 04/02/2005 04:20:33 PM · #40
What was your purpose being there? Was it to record events as they happened?

Did you do this? If not, then you failed in your brief. As a photojouralist, you have to get the shot, whether it goes against your beliefs or not. If you feel you cannot do it, then this is not the course you should follow.

There is a fine line between snapper and photojournalist, I can visit an event and snap away, If anything happens that is not what I want, I can stop...you, as a photojournalist, can't.

Perhaps you need to take a deeper look at what it is that you want to do. To me, if I was in your position, everyone at that election was fair game. To not record what I saw would be a failure, regardless of friends, enemies and politicians!

Steve
 04/02/2005 07:12:11 PM · #41
You know, I haven't been to these forums in a while, and I'm starting to remember why.. Some (not all) of you are just incredibly rude and intentionally hurtful for no real reason at all. It's really sad.. Can we not have an intelligent, rational discussion without someone (or 10 someones) saying "This doesn't matter, you're stupid for even caring about it"?

I feel like I should address some things, just to defend myself. First of all, no one should ever cast judgment on another person's grief (not "beliefs," to those of you who twisted my words). You may have the right to do it, and the ability, and the desire, but it doesn't mean that it's appropriate or ethical at all. No one can know how important an event or position or person is to someone else, so for you, especially all of you who don't know anything about these people or the school or the position or the circumstance, to make light of their sadness and pain is just appalling. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and I pity you for being so incapable of (or without regard for) empathy. No one asked you to evaluate how they were feeling, least of all me.. I asked for your opinions on photojournalism, on photographing people when they are in pain, on what you would have done in the same situation.. I don't really care what you all think of my friends and of the importance they place on these elections. You can rant and rave all you want about how we're so young, how this doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, blah blah blah, but in my eyes, the "grand scheme" is highly overrated. Any person could die at any given moment, so I'm not going to be half-hearted about ANYTHING I do, and I'm certainly not going to just forget about something that was really important to me just because the rest of the world doesn't see it as important. Yeah, maybe when I'm 60 none of this stuff will matter to me, but I'm not 60, and it does matter. Anyway.. Can we all just stay on topic and discuss photojournalism in general, instead of laying into me and my friends because you don't approve of our grief? Thanks.

I did get other shots that night.. the election commissioner announcing the results, the candidates praying before the announcements, campaigns holding hands in anticipation, people cheering during the announcements, the winning candidates hugging their friends, etc.. It's not like I walked away emptyhanded. And, had I had my way, I never would have taken any pictures of the losing candidates, except that my boss specifically told me to shoot them, and when everything is so time-sensitive like that, you don't really have time to say "gee, no, I'd rather not, can you find someone else?" I feel like refusing to take the pictures might be just an unethical as taking them. It's like knowing some big news and keeping it a secret.. You have a duty to your friends to protect them from hurt as much as you can, and you have a duty to the people you serve to report the news accurately.. By only taking pictures of the winners, did I do that?

On another side note.. Just because someone is in a public place doesn't mean they should be subjected to further humiliation. It's absurd how insensitive some of you are.. Of course they knew there was a chance of them losing, of course they knew people were going to see them react, so what? When I drive, I know I run the risk of getting in a car accident. Every time someone leaves the house, they run the risk of getting robbed or raped or murdered. Should we not still be upset when these things happen? Yeah, my friends were "fair game," but that still doesn't make it right in the moral sense.

To those of you who offered constructive criticism, I greatly appreciate it, especially those of you with experience in photojournalism. It's really easy for people who only do this as a hobby to sit there behind the safety of their computers and say, "suck it up, take the pictures, they should have seen it coming." Ihose of you who have been there, standing in front of the mourning or the injured or the poor, and who have had to make the decision between doing your job or sparing someone added humiliation, understand that it's not as easy as it sounds, and I especially appreciate your input. I mean, I still want everyone's opinions and advice, but it means a lot coming from someone who's been there, y'know?
 04/02/2005 07:30:08 PM · #42
I hope my advice was helpful to you and I didn't insult you. I completely understand how difficult the job can be...believe me. Hang in there and keep some humanity and standards and you'll do great.
 04/02/2005 08:07:22 PM · #43
Ahh well...if you can't stomach advice, don't ask for it. Like was said before, you're probably not cut out for the job. Afterall, you did fail in your task that night. You couldn't do your job -- you handed your camera to your boss. I'm surprised you still have the job -- honestly, I'll take your job in a heartbeat and I'll shoot whatever in the ENTIRE world they tell me to shoot and not bat a single eyelash or give it a second thought. Some people just aren't cut out for it -- there are 100 photographers out there wishing they had your job that you cannot competently fulfill.

On another note, if you think my comments have been harsh, I guess you're right. It's a harsh world we live in, and it's something that I feel passionate about. You need to see things from our side of the field...you basically had us all thinking a good friend died infront of your eyes...then tell us that it was some cheerleader election. How do you think most of us felt? Of course, just because not everyone respects the male cheerleader of the state election or whatever, I believe there has been some solid advice given on both my part, and the parts of others. You asked for the advice, you got it, unfortunately, yes, there is some nonsense to sort through, but you shouldn't be upset.
 04/02/2005 08:25:00 PM · #44
Originally posted by deapee:
Ahh well...if you can't stomach advice, don't ask for it. Like was said before, you're probably not cut out for the job. Afterall, you did fail in your task that night. You couldn't do your job -- you handed your camera to your boss. I'm surprised you still have the job -- honestly, I'll take your job in a heartbeat and I'll shoot whatever in the ENTIRE world they tell me to shoot and not bat a single eyelash or give it a second thought. Some people just aren't cut out for it -- there are 100 photographers out there wishing they had your job that you cannot competently fulfill.

On another note, if you think my comments have been harsh, I guess you're right. It's a harsh world we live in, and it's something that I feel passionate about. You need to see things from our side of the field...you basically had us all thinking a good friend died infront of your eyes...then tell us that it was some cheerleader election. How do you think most of us felt? Of course, just because not everyone respects the male cheerleader of the state election or whatever, I believe there has been some solid advice given on both my part, and the parts of others. You asked for the advice, you got it, unfortunately, yes, there is some nonsense to sort through, but you shouldn't be upset.


I couldn't have said it better...
 04/02/2005 08:36:43 PM · #45
Originally posted by deapee:
Ahh well...if you can't stomach advice, don't ask for it. Like was said before, you're probably not cut out for the job. Afterall, you did fail in your task that night. You couldn't do your job -- you handed your camera to your boss. I'm surprised you still have the job -- honestly, I'll take your job in a heartbeat and I'll shoot whatever in the ENTIRE world they tell me to shoot and not bat a single eyelash or give it a second thought. Some people just aren't cut out for it -- there are 100 photographers out there wishing they had your job that you cannot competently fulfill.

I have to say, you're on the other end of extreme. You wouldn't last long as a photojounalist either, with that attitude. Any good photojounalist is aware and respectful of the situation they find themselves in. Otherwise, you can work for the Enquirer. You have to find the ballance of getting the story without becoming part of the story, and if you go in with "guns" ablazing, you end up effecting it. Just like a swimming pool, if you are taking pictures of a swimming race, you don't jump in the pool to get the shots. All photojounalism is like that.
If she shot a photo of one of the loosers crying, but what really upset them and made them cry was her taking their photo, then she really didn't capture the story honestly and manipulated the situation, whether intentional or not.
I can tell gwphoto and deapee have no experience in photojounalism by how cold you both are. Read my other entries in this string and you will see where I'm coming from.
 04/02/2005 09:04:06 PM · #46
i know how it is, im the main photographer for my schools yearbook, and i know how it is when people yell at you or tell you that you suck just because you didnt get pictures, not much fun at all. its just some people dont have any sympathy for anybody anymore it seems....
 04/02/2005 09:09:15 PM · #47
It's not a fun position to be in when you have to do an unpleasent job around people who know you in another capacity.

This was probably the first time your friends had a good understanding of your job with the school paper. It is very, very typical for people to lash out at pjs in stressful situations. When I was an EMT on more than one occasion, I nearly ripped cameras out of peoples hands when they got too close to me on a call. And I'd take all my anger and direct it at them.

In all probablilty your friends saw you, saw the camera, and found an outlet for their anger. It's made worse for you because they know you. Should you turn in your camera? No, not yet. :)

Part of being in college is learning. Every pj in the world has had to learn how to take shots in horrible situations. Few of them ever have to take pictures of friends in difficult situations. Professional detachment is important. You do need to cultivate that. That said, we are all defined by the relationships we cultivate. First responders all know stories of officers, firefighters, and medics who respond to calls only to discover that it's a loved one who is the victim.

Nobody expects them to remain detached. That's part of belonging to the human race. :) You are incredibly lucky! You are getting the oppertunity to learn these lessons early, and in a situation where time can and will heal the wounds. That's a great thing.

Don't quit just yet. Empathize with your friends, share the tears and frusteration. If you need to, talk with them about how you felt. True friends will understand, and with time accept that you were trying to do a job.

Then go back out and get your camera. You've just passed a major step on your way to an amazing future. :)

Clara
 04/06/2005 02:59:39 AM · #48
Originally posted by mffnqueen:
You can rant and rave all you want about how we're so young, how this doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, blah blah blah, but in my eyes, the "grand scheme" is highly overrated. Any person could die at any given moment, so I'm not going to be half-hearted about ANYTHING I do, and I'm certainly not going to just forget about something that was really important to me just because the rest of the world doesn't see it as important.


I don't think anyone here was implying that 100% effort should not be devoted to something of this nature. If you do not put all your effort into something then it isn't worth doing to begin with.

What I think people were saying is that losing an election is not a 'great personal tragidy' - especially for a position such as this. Many people reacted this way because the original question was stated with a very large gap in the way you perceive things and the way they see things.

The 'grand scheme' may be overrated but if someone reacts the way you are making it out to appear over something that is, regardless of what you say, trivial; then they will be slitting their wrists in a few years and calling it quits. Life is going to get a hell of a lot harder and a heck of a lot worse is going to happen than losing an election in college. If people do not understand that or prepare for it..... good luck!

And just to finish off... you're on a public forum. If you really did not think that there were going to be people ripping into your situation from every angle then you really do not understand the internet. :)
 04/06/2005 03:34:08 AM · #49
Originally posted by deapee:
I'll take your job in a heartbeat and I'll shoot whatever in the ENTIRE world they tell me to shoot and not bat a single eyelash or give it a second thought.

I'm sorry, but this statement strikes me as absolute nonsense. You get sent to photograph a car accident where there are serious injuries. You arrive, only to find that it's your wife & kids in a rollover. Somehow, I don't think photography is going to be very high on your list of priorities at that moment.

This isn't meant to be a flame, but come on. The OP's comments about our opinions of what's important to an individual are right on target. Everyone's opinions and/or feelings are based on experience. As we grow older, our perspectives change. As a young person, losing that election can feel like the end of the world. Later in life, it's not such a big deal.

Some of you guys sound like you're responding out of your offence at feeling tricked by the lack of details in the original post. To say that since she asked for opinions in a public forum she should expect to have people ripping into her from every angle goes strongly against the spirit of this site.
 04/06/2005 04:23:20 AM · #50
Originally posted by aronya1:
To say that since she asked for opinions in a public forum she should expect to have people ripping into her from every angle goes strongly against the spirit of this site.


I don't see any of the responces as being that harsh. It can be a harsh world out there sometimes. Especially for a photojournalist. I hope that when she started this thread she wasn't asking for a bunch of (((hugs))) and "oh, you poor child". She asked for oppinions and she got some. If she feels some of those oppinions harsh, how will she react to criticism from someone like an editor of the L A Times?
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