When will I ever !@#$% learn... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

04/02/2005 02:24:58 AM · #1

I should know better than to endeavor for creativity. I should know that if i have two images, just post the one that is 'technically' the better photo and not post the one's that are more creative or thoughtful.

Someone please slap me next time.....

*sigh*

nico_blue

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/02/2005 02:29:18 AM · #2

when you have two images like the ones you have just described you should then endeavour to take a third that is both creative and technically good.

Zoomdak

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

04/02/2005 03:04:58 AM · #3

Originally posted by nico_blue:

when you have two images like the ones you have just described you should then endeavour to take a third that is both creative and technically good.

Ah, nice twist. But good advice.

theSaj

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

04/02/2005 04:31:23 AM · #4

Yes....sadly, I just ran out of time. It took 3 hours to get what i got. And it was a speed challenge on a work day....

:|

TG73

Konica Minolta DiMAGE A200

04/02/2005 05:09:28 AM · #5

What are you complaining about? Your pic is very, VERY cool. I remember voting high.

Jacko

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/02/2005 07:16:43 AM · #6

Scores on DPC are more important than sharing your creativity?

zarniwoop

Nikon D50

Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2.0D

04/02/2005 07:42:55 AM · #7

Think very carefully about whether you actually want that question answered.

04/02/2005 10:28:20 AM · #8

I think sometimes entrants misunderstand the voters. The photog may think his shot is being scored low because the voters don't appreciate the creativity that went into it when the real reason for the disappointing score is that the voters perceive that the shot doesn't meet the challenge topic very well. It is no accident or coincidence that we call them challenges instead of contests, competitions, etc.

If you sincerely believe that it is an excess of creativity that is holding down your dpc scores, try this- change your approach for a few challenges to make creativity your third priority after technical superiority and meeting the challenge. If your results improve significantly - you were right. You will have validated your premise while at the same time putting a few more points on the board. You will likely learn something about what it takes to please the fickle whims of the voters; and then you can decide whether you want to go for creativity and sacriface scores, or turn toward the tastes of the masses and try to score high.

The hatrick of creativity, technical superiority and meeting the challenge is of course a goal we should all strive for; but creativity should be the third jewel in the crown, not the first.

Message edited by author 2005-04-02 10:32:49.

Prof_Fate

04/02/2005 11:26:43 AM · #9

I have discovered a few things on DPC...the fact that i cannot remember them when creating a challenge entry is my own stupid fault..but i have submitted entries to 'test' the voters -

TO do well, you need, in this approximate order:
-technical excellence (proper exposure, sharpenign, saturation/b&w, etc)
-proper composition - leading lines, rule of thirds, etc. There are exceptions, but overall following the rules will score better
-meet the challenge, fairly obviously but not too in the face
-titling...can help or hurt - see my bridge photo comments
-be creative - in technique or idea or implementation
-make it a beautiful shot, as in calendar shot, poster worthy, etc

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

04/02/2005 11:30:34 AM · #10

There is no set order of importance. For my highest scoring shots, creativity always comes first. Your results may vary.

04/02/2005 02:22:26 PM · #11

Originally posted by scalvert:

There is no set order of importance. For my highest scoring shots, creativity always comes first. Your results may vary.

You can go directly to the third because you have the first two down pat. My remarks were aimed more toward a newbie who is struggling with low scores.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

04/02/2005 02:25:46 PM · #12

Originally posted by coolhar:

...The hatrick of creativity, technical superiority and meeting the challenge is of course a goal we should all strive for; but creativity should be the third jewel in the crown, not the first.

The perfect recipe for mediocrity.

Entering an image for the sole purpose of receiving a high score is a game, at best. It is quite a trivial game when compared to a motivation to make the best photograph an entrant is capable of under the specific restrictions of a particular challenge.

Whether or not photographers misunderstand voters or not, also, is not particularly relevant. Voters, obviously, are going to misunderstand photos they vote on. The authors of the photographs need not understand voters. They need to take or make photos. Voters, too, would understand better, if they did not feel so damned compelled to have to understand everything. It is, after all, an image they're viewing, not a puzzle to be solved or a math problem.

A good photo does not need to be understood to be appreciated. It has to do something. It may not do something for everyone. A better photo will move some viewers to a significant degree. The best, in my book, contribute an awareness or instigate some form of the same.

When we split creative, technical and topical properties into separate catagories and assign merit to these in an order of some perceived site-specific priorities, we cannot do justice to any photos except the most unimaginative and the least artistic.

As a voter, myself, I am motivated by wanting to make the best photos popular, so that these may be seen, noted and, possibly, provide a model worth further examination. I do not, as a voter, see myself in a role of judge, grand inquisitor or some sort of social equalizer.

I submit photos to be seen, to be exhilerated or disturbed by. Whether I score well or poorly, this, has no influence on my way of seeing or photographing things, unless, of course, there is a comment or critique attached to the photo which shows me another perspective or, otherwise, alerts me to facts I was not aware of.

I see no use whatsoever in making the popular more popular than it already is. I might as well advertise peace, joy and pan cakes.

Cam

Sony DSC-F717

04/02/2005 02:50:43 PM · #13

I always ask my wife if I have 2 I cant decide on.

What ever one she likes better, I pick the other.

04/02/2005 03:34:21 PM · #14

Originally posted by zeuszen:

I see a lot of mediocrity, and a lot of the popular, in the images that get the best scores here, not all of them, but many and perhaps most.

I accept the purpose of the site as teaching more than competing. The competing is only a motivational tool to keep us learning. Technical superiority and meeting the challenge are things that can be learned. Creativity is more like an a gift than like a skill that can be learned. Some people have a lot of it and others have very little. Spend resources where they can do the most good.

How should we go about convincing the voters to stop making the popular more popular?

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

04/02/2005 03:58:15 PM · #15

Originally posted by coolhar:

Yes. I don't think you can convince them. But we can refrain from doing the same by promoting that which we do recognize as having charge beyond that of the standard current.

There are, among the many, a few very remarkable shots, which, IMHO, would benefit from a little stewardship and which, really, contribute wonderful opportunities for study, examination and growth.

It is easy to criticize poor exhibits, but the effect of this is much less positive than trying to make examples of works which deserve the attention in a more thoroughly appreciative way.

04/02/2005 04:28:55 PM · #16

Originally posted by zeuszen:

There are, among the many, a few very remarkable shots, which, IMHO, would benefit from a little stewardship and which, really, contribute wonderful opportunities for study, examination and growth.

If I am understanding you, I think that is what I was trying to do in a thread I started Thurs called under rated in Bored. Met with mixed results.

Originally posted by zeuszen:

It is easy to criticize poor exhibits, but the effect of this is much less positive than trying to make examples of works which deserve the attention in a more thoroughly appreciative way.

I'm trying to get away from the attaboys in my comments and to be more helpful and constructive. But often find myself pointing out perceived deficiencies without being able to offer a good way to improve the shot. As I try to make them more useful my comments seem to be taking on a negative tone, and that's a little depressing.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

04/02/2005 05:10:12 PM · #17

â�¢ I can only do what I believe is best. It does not really matter how many oppose me, but if one provided a good argument against it, then, and only then, would I reconsider.

â�¢ I think I understand your sentiments regarding commenting on deficiencies. And you're right, when we do this, the tone should not become infected. And I agree that it is difficult to a) leave no doubts that something is rotten and b) say this in a credible and decent way.

On the other hand, if we practiced commenting on the better pictures, our criticism of the lesser ones may become more inspired... ?

riversong

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

04/02/2005 05:23:55 PM · #18

I am an artist struggling with using the camera as my newest medium. My eye tends to lean towards graphic designs and lots of color. While this works well in oils and paints it tends to look overused and gaudy in my photographs.

As a newbie, I appreciate any comments on my photos. Everyone wants others to view their own photo as lovely and wonderful, but in reality I do know that my stuff needs improvement! :)

I am saying this to let you know that I love constructive criticism and do not take it personally. I look at this site as a classroom, full of opportunities to improve my newest passion...photography.

I am working on my technical style and putting my creative urges on the backburner for a while,and I am betting my scores will be much better in the next few months.

Thanks for all your words of encouragement and to all that have offered technical advice to help my photos look more pleasing to the eye and soul.

You all rock~!!

e301

04/02/2005 05:36:08 PM · #19

I think one must criticise the shots that 'fail' - and there are many, obviously - from a standpoint of encouragement. It is easy for those of us who are either able to see, or have learned to see, or have been taught to see, or persuaded to see the 'photographic' in the world around us, to either forget or simply be unaware of the leap of imagination that is required to get the brain and eyes working in that manner.

The same applies to an understanding of light: I learned that myself aout twenty years ago by an accidental process that ended with my becoming a lighting designer for a number of years, and to the extent that it now forms an integral part of my permanent view of the world. Many people do not have that advantage, and I find it very difficult to criticise poor use of light when I really can't remember very well not being permanently aware of it.

But what one learns from this site is a difficult thing to assess, beyond a certain point. No-one, for instance, is genuinely going to criticise JJ's work for being crass, stock, unimaginative, pandering to the masses, obvious, or so embedded in it's own style that it's forced itself into the dpc consciousness. I think (in fact I know), that JJ has treated these challenges as a personal homework assignment, and there is no doubt that his photography, what we see of it here, has benefited from that. And he has more ribbons than anyone, and is way up that favourites list.

My own photography has certainly seen a progression this year - in fact I would personally date it to the turn of the year. Some of that relates to a change of (preferred) subject, and I'm clear about that in my mind, but the movement I've seen in scores here is down to a phenomenon that I can't resolve: in some senses, being fairly sceptical of general results, I wonder if it isn't a bad thing for me (from the stand-point of personal vision, hopefully original expression of that vision, and so on). There is also a change of attitude re challenges - in that I no longer try to take images to meet the challenge, and try not deliberately to produce dpc-friendly images.

The learning process, I believe, is more about an absorption of things, once one gets beyond a basic level of competence (which in itself is a wide-ranging subject). One keeps pushing, keeps trying to nail one's vision, and keeps looking and learning everything one can from the work of the world's great photographers. Many of the things one learns there never really form themselves into coherent thoughts, as such.

E

theSaj