Wireless Ligthting: Canon E-TTL vs. PocketWizards

03/23/2005 08:46:14 PM · #1

Discuss.

03/23/2005 08:47:55 PM · #2

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Discuss.

Pocket wizard. Wasn't that Harper Lee's nickname for Truman Capote?

03/23/2005 08:58:19 PM · #3

My feet do not stink!

03/23/2005 08:59:06 PM · #4

Shoot, I might have to bump this one for a while...you just use one flash, right stinky?

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/23/2005 09:01:12 PM · #5

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Shoot, I might have to bump this one for a while...you just use one flash, right stinky?

LOL! Yes, not too knowledgeable about most flash issues.

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

03/23/2005 09:43:01 PM · #6

I'm not the expert... but I've used both strobes and Canon's E-TTL wireless. Here are my thoughts:

Canon's E-TTL wireless (I have both the 550 and the 420) work very well together and definitely have their uses. They are light, extremely portable, and very flexible (you can set various ratios of lighting). And the great thing is that Canon's E-TTL for the most part figures out the amount of light necessary for a proper exposure without having to break out a light meter.

Strobes, on the other hand, are big, less portable, absolutely require a light meter, but are much more powerful and with that power comes flexibility.

You can put huge soft boxes in front of the strobes and have a much softer light.

On the other hand, the 550 and 420 are going to be harsher unless you get something like the Lumiquest softbox, or you bounce them off the ceiling or off a white cardboard, etc. But then you're wasting some of the precious light you have coming out of the flashes (which aren't as powerful as the strobes), so your lighting distance is limited.

For quick setup shots, I really like my flash units. For bigger, more professional, photo shoots, I prefer my strobes.

As to what may be the crux of your question (Canon's wireless versus PocketWizard wireless), here are some things to know:

1) Canon's wireless is based on a pre-flash from master unit. Regardless of whether you use a 550, a 580 or even the wireless transmitter which is simply an infrared flash unit, a pre-flash must go out from the master and must be seen by the slaves to tell them what to do. So you have distance issues as well as obstruction of light issues

For example, you might not be able to place a slave behind your backdrop if enough of the master light can't get through or around the backdrop to tell the slave what to do. Similarly, if the slave is too far away, or at such an angle that it can't see the master, it won't know to fire.

2) PocketWizards, on the other hand, use radio frequencies and have no problem with "seeing each other". They are also useful for a greater distance.

One nicety is having a Seikonic light meter with built-in PocketWizard transmitter. You can have your light meter set off your strobes rather than having an assistance fire them off or hold your light meter for you.

So anyway, I like both and both have their uses. Hopefully I've given you some things to think about...

03/23/2005 09:54:30 PM · #7

Thanks David...my purposes would be for quick portrait setups, sports, press conferences and the like as I'm going to begin a photojournalism program soon (90% certainty).

The program director recommended the pocketwizards and some cheap Vivitar 185's over the E-TTL system...

Given this more specific context, what do you suggest?

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/23/2005 10:13:20 PM · #8

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

When I did have my Nikon the Sigma EF-500 DG Super E-TTL was a great flash. I had two and used on as a remote while trying to get some owl in a dark barn shots. These have been upgraded to work with DSLRs now and this one is dedicated Canon.

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

03/23/2005 10:27:38 PM · #9

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

The program director recommended the pocketwizards and some cheap Vivitar 185's over the E-TTL system...

Given this more specific context, what do you suggest?

I have to confess to a bit of ignorance. I'm afraid I don't know what a Vivitar 185 is.

Anyway, the advantage of a PocketWizard at a press conference would be the ability to pick a frequency that doesn't collide with other photographers.

With the Canon E-TTL you only have 4 "frequencies" ... and remember, these frequences are really pre-flash based ... so it's not a different frequency of light, just a different frequency, or protocol, of "pre-flashes" to communicate between master and slave.

Where you're competing with many other photographers, I think I'd stick to PocketWizards. Less chance of failure that way.

Natator

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/23/2005 10:27:55 PM · #10

Something else to consider here ....

I have an e-ttl system which is basically a 580ex, a 420ex and the ST-E2 transmitter. Love it etc etc etc.

I also have a couple of 500watt studio strobes, love them etc.

Ideally I want to run them all together. However, you can't use the e-ttl system in the same arrangement as the studio strobes (unless you wire everything up) as the pre-flash in the e-ttl system will trip the studio's.

Theoretical way around this is to ignore e-ttl and put the 420.580 on a optical slave. Would be nice but I can't find one that will fire Canon flashes correctly (closest I have got is one that fires once then locks up loooooooooong story and covered in other threads in the past).

I have ended up with a system where by if I want to use more than just the studio strobes I fire the 420/580 by pc sync leads and then then fire the strobes optically. Works well, but I have had to introduce wires back into the system.

As I use a light meter in the studio e-ttl is something I am not interested in there. However, I do love e-ttl if I am just working with the 580/420 elsewhere, especially in conjunction with the ST-E2.

Overall, if I could afford them, I would like to set myself up with something like the wizards one day, but for now they have badly out priced me.

As another offering, not as good but a lot cheaper ... what about using the Vivitar's but mounting them on optical slaves? A LOT less expensive, although you are back to using light rather than radio waves to trigger them.

03/24/2005 08:10:46 AM · #11

Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
The program director recommended the pocketwizards and some cheap Vivitar 185's over the E-TTL system...

Given this more specific context, what do you suggest?

I have to confess to a bit of ignorance. I'm afraid I don't know what a Vivitar 185 is.

Anyway, the advantage of a PocketWizard at a press conference would be the ability to pick a frequency that doesn't collide with other photographers.

Hi David, when I said Vivitar 185's, I meant the Vivitar 185HV flashes (which are much much cheaper than the 550EX). Also, the PocketWizard system I would pick up is the PocketWizard Plus, which also only has four channels. I think I can pick up a new transmitter/receiver combo for $299 USD...

I'm leaning heavily towards the PocketWizards+cheap flash combo but I'm wondering how much 'cheaper' the Vivitar 185HV is...what features will I be missing out on when using it on the hot shoe as a single flash?

Also, has anyone heard anything about issues with using the Vivitar 185HV on a digital camera? I heard there might be problems...or was it the 183's?

Message edited by author 2005-03-24 08:11:47.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/24/2005 08:48:25 AM · #12

bump for help! (see questions in post below)

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

03/24/2005 10:40:54 AM · #13

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

I meant the Vivitar 185HV flashes (which are much much cheaper than the 550EX).

Is there a website that you can point me to to learn more about what this flash is?

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

03/24/2005 11:09:00 AM · #14

//www.vivitar.com/Products/Flashes/flash.html

oh...and I meant 283 and 285HV, not 183 and 185HV...oops...

Also, I'm seeing this option on ebay:

4-channel radio system

Also, how about the Sigma E-TTL option?

Ultimately, I need a system of two flashes that can be controlled remotely that will be the best value available for my needs...

Thanks for your advice!

hsteg

Fujifilm X-T20

03/24/2005 11:32:30 AM · #15

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

I have the one channel set of those radio slave things and they work great. I tried using it with a homemade softbox, and will uh, have to try again. lol

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

03/24/2005 11:38:29 AM · #16

Originally posted by hsteg:

I have the one channel set of those radio slave things and they work great. I tried using it with a homemade softbox, and will uh, have to try again. lol

Why, are they crap? I'd love to know if they're worth it...They're about 1/4 of the price of PocketWizards...

hsteg

Fujifilm X-T20

03/24/2005 11:39:49 AM · #17

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by hsteg:
I have the one channel set of those radio slave things and they work great. I tried using it with a homemade softbox, and will uh, have to try again. lol

Why, are they crap? I'd love to know if they're worth it...They're about 1/4 of the price of PocketWizards...

The transmitter and reciecer are great! Its my homemade softbox that needs a little work. lol

03/24/2005 11:41:32 AM · #18

Originally posted by hsteg:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by hsteg:
I have the one channel set of those radio slave things and they work great. I tried using it with a homemade softbox, and will uh, have to try again. lol

Why, are they crap? I'd love to know if they're worth it...They're about 1/4 of the price of PocketWizards...

The transmitter and reciecer are great! Its my homemade softbox that needs a little work. lol

How much did you pay? And did you feel comfortable putting them on your 20d (regarding warranty and stuff)?

Message edited by author 2005-03-24 11:42:22.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

03/24/2005 11:53:41 AM · #19

One of the biggest benefits of useing the canon 550EX (or 580 or 420) or another e-ttl flash (metx 54, Sigma 500, etc) is that they commnicate with eth camera regarding amount of flash for proper exposure. As soon as you go non-ttl (as in the 185s or studio stobes, or optical slaves) then you, the photographer, must determine the right amount of exposure.

I shot an even last weekend using an older quantarray flash on my Rebel. I used the 'rule of thumb' model - set the flash to auto, set the camera to F5.6 and shoot. hope it all turns out OK. Having a histogram helped a lot, but i had to take 2 or 3 shots at times to get it right. More experience would have helped a bit, but a dedicated e-TTL flash would have helped a lot more! that is very high on my wants list.

I am confused about your needs - journalism shots... at a press conference with 10 other phtotogs blasting flashes i would htink e-ttl would be the way to go. where and how you'd set up a secondary flash (as in physically place it) i have no idea. If it is you and a CEO of a company or other 'controlled' you are the only photog type shot then any flash would work as your seconday one (a 185 or cheaper unit and a wein slave peanut).

If you are covering sports - well, football and soccer, forget a flash. When i did basketball no flash was allowed at all. Again, how would you set and use a secondary flash?

If covering a car wreck or burning building - no time to set up a secondary flash and no need really.

hsteg

Fujifilm X-T20

03/24/2005 11:58:05 AM · #20

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by hsteg:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by hsteg:
I have the one channel set of those radio slave things and they work great. I tried using it with a homemade softbox, and will uh, have to try again. lol

Why, are they crap? I'd love to know if they're worth it...They're about 1/4 of the price of PocketWizards...

The transmitter and reciecer are great! Its my homemade softbox that needs a little work. lol

How much did you pay? And did you feel comfortable putting them on your 20d (regarding warranty and stuff)?

With shipping and the necessary adapter, I think I paid around 60 bucks.

03/24/2005 12:04:00 PM · #21

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Well, it would need to be metered. I've heard that people have lots of problems when relying on the E-TTL's on Auto. Edit: I shouldn't say "lots" of problems...just that it's easy to get a mis-read using the E-TTL's if the subject is wearing a white shirt as opposed to a black shirt, for example.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

I shot an even last weekend using an older quantarray flash on my Rebel. I used the 'rule of thumb' model - set the flash to auto, set the camera to F5.6 and shoot. hope it all turns out OK. Having a histogram helped a lot, but i had to take 2 or 3 shots at times to get it right. More experience would have helped a bit, but a dedicated e-TTL flash would have helped a lot more! that is very high on my wants list.

I do see this as an advantage, but you'd still have to shoot and check, no?

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

I am confused about your needs - journalism shots... at a press conference with 10 other phtotogs blasting flashes i would htink e-ttl would be the way to go. where and how you'd set up a secondary flash (as in physically place it) i have no idea.

I'm sure there would often be opportunity to set up secondaries at various events, even if other photographers were there.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

If you are covering sports - well, football and soccer, forget a flash. When i did basketball no flash was allowed at all. Again, how would you set and use a secondary flash?

Huh? I'm not sure what to say...this is exactly the type of event that you would need to remotely light your shots.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

If covering a car wreck or burning building - no time to set up a secondary flash and no need really.

Clearly...I'm looking more for quick portrait setups and sports...

Message edited by author 2005-03-24 12:05:26.

03/24/2005 12:11:01 PM · #22

Sports - many do not allow flash as it blinds the players and officials.
As for football, soccer, etc - i don't think that yave made a flash for that yet - a GN 160 is FEET, 160 FEET. A football field is 150 feet wide and 600 feet long...by the time you get the light to 80 or 90 feet (assuming just a mid field shot from the sidelines) there is not enoght light or width of light to do much good. Watch the photographers on the dies lines of a game - NOBODY has flash. As for setting up a secondary one...yeah right, on a football sideline. Go to a game, even a peewee leage game. I don't think this idea is at all feasible. This is whey ISO 800 and up exist, and fast lenses.

So you are at an event with 10 other photogs - i bet the other 10 want to set up secondary flashes too. With everyone's flashes and secondary flashes going off the word chaos is too small in scope.

e-ttl works great - you need to read the book for the camera and the flash. and yes, check to make sure is always a good idea. ON canon's at least, the flash will be in different modes dependingon the camera's mode and the total amount of light (if the camera sees enought light, the flash is in fill mode. if not, then the flahs is the primary source of light). Hence my suggestions of PRACTICE, practice, practice!

03/24/2005 12:16:18 PM · #23

You said you weren't allowed to light a basketball game...that's what I was referring to, indoor sports (although I have seen Soccer photos lit with monster strobes).

Anyhow, I don't want to argue with you about whether or not a photojournalist should have a remote lighting kit...

I'm just wondering about the E-TTL vs. PocketWizards. It sounds like you've had success with your E-TTL system...

03/24/2005 12:21:33 PM · #24

e-ttl has some feedback/communication between teh flash and camera, just like a built in flash.

pocket wizards and studio stobes have NO communication between them andthe camera. you put eh camera in full manual mode, set eth shutter to the max sync speed (1/200 on a rebel) or slower, and use the aperture to control the amount of light captured (and ISO to some extent). The strobes can be set at full power, or at some lesser figure. There are charts for al this lovely calcualtion. See the paperwork with any manual flash and it will make you're head spin!