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03/10/2005 04:32:19 PM · #276 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
...I'd have to agree that today's Bible is very close to the originals. |
Wow! Where can I find the originals for comparison? |
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03/10/2005 04:32:24 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
The Modern Bible wasn't re-written...it was amputated. Why are there just the four episles...Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? What happened to the others? The ones they chose not to include...Philip, Peter etc?
Or the translations from Hebrew that have been proved to be wrong? After all this time and after so much research by experts in Hebrew have stated the wrong meanings or ambigiuos meanings have been used in the scriptures, why is the Bible still unaltered?
Why are there two creations of Man stories in Genesis?
I could go on, but this is a photographic site!
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Yep, these debates have been had before. I'll also refrain. There are many bible scholars (christian and not) that have addressed this stuff...including the reason for exclusion or inclusion of different gospels (not epistles).
I don't get your joke about the lawyer, though...
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 16:33:26.
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03/10/2005 04:33:58 PM · #278 |
do you have an example? (or know of where i could find one)
(i'm not being a jerk, i would really like to research this further)
Originally posted by rscorp:
When some of the more corrupt Popes and Kings decided to change things, they got changed. |
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03/10/2005 04:37:09 PM · #279 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
...I'd have to agree that today's Bible is very close to the originals. |
Wow! Where can I find the originals for comparison? |
Ya can borrow mine if you want.... but you'll have to wait... the ink ain't quite dry yet... |
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03/10/2005 04:37:24 PM · #280 |
Originally posted by hopper:
do you have an example? (or know of where i could find one) |
The bible originally said that the universe revolved around the earth. For research, I'd start with NASA's web site. |
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03/10/2005 04:38:03 PM · #281 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I said I wouldn't get into this...but you need to defend a statement that claims that the bible has been 'drastically rewritten'. |
I should have said, a defence lawyer. It is not important, just a quick quip! :)
Steve |
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03/10/2005 04:40:34 PM · #282 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by hopper:
do you have an example? (or know of where i could find one) |
The bible originally said that the universe revolved around the earth. For research, I'd start with NASA's web site. |
Come on...as cute as your comment is, you would really discount what the scriptures say because of this?
Should I stop paying attention to my wife because she mentioned something about 'the sun coming up' yesterday morning?
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 16:41:18.
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03/10/2005 04:42:17 PM · #283 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The bible originally said that the universe revolved around the earth. For research, I'd start with NASA's web site. |
[/quote]
Again we're back to what parts of the bible are figurative and what are literal. |
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03/10/2005 04:42:57 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by hopper:
do you have an example? (or know of where i could find one) |
The bible originally said that the universe revolved around the earth. For research, I'd start with NASA's web site. |
How can the universe revolve round a flat earth thats carried on the back of a turtle supported by four elephants??
Steve |
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03/10/2005 04:44:25 PM · #285 |
the original old testament seemed to be a beautiful story book and a political crowd control tool and motivational manuscript. People in CHina are shaking there heads and saying- when the middle east was coming up with "chosen people" idea, we already had general tso's chicken."
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03/10/2005 04:45:28 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
you would really discount what the scriptures say because of this? |
He asked for an example, and I just picked a common one. If it's supposed to be the Word of God, and so incontestible that the church was willing to kill people over it, then yes. You know as well as I that many "revisions" were made during the Middle Ages. |
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03/10/2005 04:46:25 PM · #287 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
you would really discount what the scriptures say because of this? |
He asked for an example, and I just picked a common one. If it's supposed to be the Word of God, and so incontestible that the church was willing to kill people over it, then yes. You know as well as I that many "revisions" were made during the Middle Ages. |
Wait...what revision are you talking about? Where in the bible is the verse that talks about the sun's habits that you say was revised in the middle ages?
Anyhow, you chose a poor example. It's common for people to say the sun moves around the earth...
I'm done for today.
Peace everyone,
mike
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 16:48:01.
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03/10/2005 04:53:55 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Again we're back to what parts of the bible are figurative and what are literal. |
The entire bible is figurative.. just like any compilative work. Roman and Greek Myths, the Sumerian legends, Far East myths and legends, the bible... they all come down to the same thing.. humanity's struggle with understanding the world around them, inventing stories and gods to comfort, and an attempt to find some order.. and, eventually, the result of greed, corruption, and the personal beliefs of those in power.
Any serious study of any of these ancient sources of information all conclude the same thing. NOBODY knows where, how, or when they started, but almost everyone agrees that throughout the ages, they've changed, mutated, and finally ended up as they are today. 1000 years from now, they will all be just as different to the people then, as the works are to us from those that began it.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 16:55:07.
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03/10/2005 04:56:09 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by charliebaker:
...
The Judeo-Christian faith worldview does not include reincarnation. It doesn't not say that reincarnation is wrong, but simply does not view life/death/afterlife in these terms. One of the clearest statements regarding this can be found in a very Jewish-Christian book in the Bible, the Book of "Hebrews", where the writer states, "Just as humans are destined to die once and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. |
...But the christian faith believes that you must be "born again". Why not be born again "in the flesh"? |
Your question is not unlike Nicodemus from John 3...check it out, my words tend to pale in comparrison to His. |
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03/10/2005 05:00:04 PM · #290 |
| A real Historian scholar will tell you that it's already been proven and accepted in science that Jesus did exist and was accounted for (his name, location, etc were listed along with everyone else at the time). You can say that the bible is just stories, but Jesus did infact exist -it's just up to you to believe what He said or not. |
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03/10/2005 05:02:11 PM · #291 |
I'm not familiar with any passage in the Bible that says that the earth is flat or that the universe orbits the earth. Here's a passage, though, from the book of Job which is one of the older books, that claims that the earth is "suspended over nothing". Pretty remarkable statement for the ancients, hmm?
Job 26:
6 Death is naked before God;
Destruction lies uncovered.
7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
By the way, I love how Job summarizes in the last verse of the chapter:
14 And these are but the outer fringe of his works;
how faint the whisper we hear of him!
Who then can understand the thunder of his power?"
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03/10/2005 05:03:48 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Again we're back to what parts of the bible are figurative and what are literal. |
The entire bible is figurative.. just like any compilative work. Roman and Greek Myths, the Sumerian legends, Far East myths and legends, the bible... they all come down to the same thing.. humanity's struggle with understanding the world around them, inventing stories and gods to comfort, and an attempt to find some order.. and, eventually, the result of greed, corruption, and the personal beliefs of those in power.
Any serious study of any of these ancient sources of information all conclude the same thing. NOBODY knows where, how, or when they started, but almost everyone agrees that throughout the ages, they've changed, mutated, and finally ended up as they are today. 1000 years from now, they will all be just as different to the people then, as the works are to us from those that began it. |
Are you arguing for some progressive interpretation of dead languages? There is certainly enough historical evidence from Joesephus and other archeological means to show that the Bible isn't just some figurative work. Much of the old testament has been archeologically verified and can be verified through the history of the Egyptians, Babylonians, and to some extent the early Roman empire.
As a Christian I am quite comfortable knowing that over the years through the various church councils and the church fathers that the Bible is what it was intended to be back then and the same now. It is much easier to defer to "human error" than to attempt to research the church fathers and the progression of the cannonical writings. If your research were to include that, you would see that the Bible hasn't changed it's message of redemption by Christ. |
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03/10/2005 05:11:33 PM · #293 |
The conversation has been generally cordial and civil in this thread, but I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is about the afterlife and should not degrade into a debate about the christian bible, jesus or even religion in general.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 17:23:39.
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03/10/2005 05:12:23 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
A real Historian scholar will tell you that it's already been proven and accepted in science that Jesus did exist and was accounted for (his name, location, etc were listed along with everyone else at the time). You can say that the bible is just stories, but Jesus did infact exist -it's just up to you to believe what He said or not. |
Sorry, everything I've ever read shows that nobody has ever proven what you suggest. It's all a serious of conclusions, maybes, and assumptions.
Having said that, I have no doubt that a Jesus Christ existed, at some point, and was a very charismatic, ethical, and honorable person.. which, at that time, must have been a huge change (coming as it did during a time of great duress in that area of the world.. the Greek society destroying itself from within.. Roman society struggling with a power shift from Republic to Empire, etc.).. so no wonder a man had the opportunity to vault to god status. The Romans did it, with Romulus, Julius Caesar (to a point), and Augustus (again to a point).. The Greeks did it with Heracles, the Sumerians with Gilgamesh.
My point is.. while every legend and myth has some basis in reality, the bible, and all other historical legends, myths, and religions, remain figurative.. that is, they can carry a message of great importance, and shouldn't be dismissed outright.. but to take anything written in them literally, and to apply it strictly is dangerous.
Human society is an ever changing beast.. We can, and should, apply history and even mythical history to ourselves in order to try and get along together, and treat each other warmly and compassionately, and all of that crazy junk.. I just wish more of that would actually happen, and less of this "I believe, and nobody can ever change my mind" mentality I see all the time.
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03/10/2005 05:17:18 PM · #295 |
His name and details actually appear in original census logs. And like 'Biggs said, a lot of Biblical events have been discovered to be of quite accurate historical value.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 17:27:26. |
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03/10/2005 05:26:52 PM · #296 |
For centuries Bible scholars and religious pilgrims have been seeking the location of the real Mt. Sinai. Today, most people are unaware that not one piece of hard evidence has been produced to verify that what is traditionally designated at âMount Sinaiâ in the south central Sinai Peninsula is indeed the famed mountain of Moses and the Exodus. In fact, the only verifiable reason that the traditional site is designated âMount Sinaiâ at all is because a Roman mystic designated it and Helena, mother of Constantine I, anointed it as the true Mount Sinai early in the 4th century AD. (Helena also claimed she discovered the true âholy sepulchreâ in Jerusalem and the true cross of Christ.) Several other proposed sites for the true Mount Sinai have been suggested by biblical scholars, but thus far they have produced no archaeological evidence to support them. If we are ever to discern a correct location for the historical events recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, itâs important to use the Scriptures as a guide, just as we would use any ancient documents that have proven reliable in the past.
In the New Testament, Paul wrote in Galatians 4:25, âNow Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia . . .âAlthough some argue that here the Roman designation of Arabia includes the Sinai Peninsula, Arabia in Paulâs day encompassed a larger region that primarily designated the populated regions of ancient Midian, or modern-day Saudi Arabia. As a âHebrew of Hebrews,â Paulâs understanding of Arabia would have been one that was consistent with Old Testament passages like 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region east of the Gulf of Aqaba, where âkingsâ ruled and the âDedanitesâ co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples. Even more telling, Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: âNow Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.â Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of âMidianâ referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the âbackâ of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings. By contrast, the site proposed by BASE Institute is, indeed, on the far side or margin of a vast desert in ancient Midian.
However, can ancient Midian be identified with the Sinai Peninsula, which in the time of Moses, was considered a part of Egypt (although designated as the âwildernessâ of Egypt)? It is apparent from Exodus 2:15 that the two were separate entities. After killing an Egyptian, Moses fled Egypt for safer ground: âWhen Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian.â Egypt and its holdings would not have been safe for Moses under any circumstances. He would not have fled to the Sinai Peninsula, where archaeology shows that Pharaoh had multiple mining interests and military outposts. The Bible is clear that Moses went out of Egypt, to the land of Midian east of the gulf of Aqaba.
The Bible makes several references to Moses returning to Egypt from Midian, including Exodus 4:19 where we read, âNow the Lord had said to Moses in Midian, âGo back to Egypt, for all the men who wanted to kill you are dead.â All passages associated with Mosesâ stay in Midian point toward present-day Saudi Arabia as the area to which Moses fled, subsequently met God at the burning bush, and then returned with the children of Israel.
Because so many Bible references as well as archaeological evidence (or the lack of it) pointed away from traditional Mount Sinai and toward Saudi Arabia as the location of the historical mountain of Moses, a site inspection was necessary to determine if other evidence could be found to support this theory. Saudi Arabiaâs closed borders made it impossible for a team of scholars and archaeologists to enter the country. As a result, Larry Williams and I surreptitiously slipped into the country, traced what appears to be the Exodus route, and climbed the mountain which many scholars now consider to be the true Mount Sinai.
What follows is a condensed account of our adventures, our findings, and how these relate directly to the Bible.
RED SEA CROSSING SITE In 1 Kings 9:26, the Bible tells us, âKing Solomon also built ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath in Edom, on the shore of the Red Sea.â This verse provides us with some compelling clues. First, Solomon had his port at Elath (modern Eilat) on the shores of the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba (which forms the eastern âfingerâ of the Red Sea proper). The NIV Study Bible references this verse as follows: âRed Sea. The Hebrew for this term, normally read as Yam Suph (âsea of reedsâ), refers to the body of water through which the Israelites passed at the time of the Exodus. It can also be read, however, as Yam Soph (âsea of landâs endâ), a more likely reading when referring to the Red Sea, and especially . . . to its eastern arm, the Gulf of Aqaba.â
This could well mean that the âsea of landâs end,â at the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, was the site of the Israelitesâ crossing. At the very least, the use of the same Hebrew term both for the place where the Israelites crossed and for the Gulf of Aqaba at Elath shows that the body of water in question is not an isolated lake, but includes the bulk of what we know as the Red Sea.
BITTER LAKES: Many scholars suggest that the actual crossing of the âsea of reedsâ was in the Bitter Lakes region, north of the Gulf of Suez, where some observers have claimed that wind can cause the lake level to fluctuate several feet. However, this simply is not consistent with numerous other Biblical references, including the account of an entire, Egypt-engulfing locust swarm being blown into Yam Suph (Exodus 10:19), Solomon sailing a fleet of ships on Yam Suph (1 Kings 9:26), and the description of the way in which Pharaohâs soldiers died at Yam Suph: âBut You blew with your breath, and the sea covered them. They sank like lead in the mighty watersâ (Exodus 15:10). The Bitter Lakes region is a marsh with no mighty waters. At the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, however, at the entrance of the Gulf of Aqaba, the âmighty watersâ of the Red Sea can reach incredible fury and awesome depths.
TRADITIONAL MOUNT SINAI: Having visited the traditional Mount Sinai in the southern Sinai Peninsula, I have seen first hand that the only place the Israelites could possibly have camped was a small, flat valley area adjacent to the mountain, allowing for only about one square yard per person (assuming that roughly 2 million people were involved in the Exodus). And despite extensive archeological investigation throughout the region, nothing has ever been found that can conclusively be tied to the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt - or can even argue for a large population of people ever occupying the area.
UNDERWATER LAND BRIDGE: Following a theory that the route of the Exodus actually took the Hebrews past (not through) the bitter Lakes and then southward along the west coast of the Sinai Peninsula, we traveled to the tip of the Sinai and explored the underwater topography (bathymetry) of the Strait of Tiran, where the Gulf of Aqaba is narrowest between the Sinai Peninsula and Saudi Arabia. There we found that an underwater land bridge exists that today is so problematic for shipping that two separate routes or âlanesâ are designated for northbound and southbound ships to pass through. Further correlation of the Bibleâs account of the route of the Exodus causes us to realize that this unusual submarine formation may well have been trod by the Hebrews themselves.
BITTER SPRINGS OF MARAH: Exploring the further possibility that the Israelites passed through the waters of the Red Sea at the Strait of Tiran, we picked up our search for landmarks on the Saudi Arabia side of the Gulf of Aqaba. There we started at the coastline on the eastern side of the Strait of Tiran and traveled the most natural route approximately 30 kilometers inland to a group of springs, where the water in some of the springs was terribly bitter. Exodus 15:22-23 tells us, âSo Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea; then they went out into the wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. Now when they came to Marah, they could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter.â
THE 70 PALMS AND 12 SPRINGS OF ELIM: As we traveled generally toward Jabal al Lawz (the Saudi Arabian mountain that is held by generations of Bedouins to be the mountain of Moses), we next encountered a group of clear water springs, with a grove of palm trees adjacent to them. We marveled at the description in Exodus 15:27: âThen they came to Elim, where there were twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees; so they camped there by the waters.â
CAVES OF MOSES: While at the springs, we discovered that some nearby caves were being excavated by Saudi archaeologists. A worker at the site said that writings found in the caves indicated that the prophet Musa (Moses) had come through this area with his nation of Hebrews.
CHARRED PEAK AND MELTED ROCK: Continuing to Jabal al Lawz, and after a great deal of maneuvering to gain access to the mountain, we found the top of the mountain to be thoroughly blackened, as if the rocks had been severely scorched from without. When we broke open the rocks, we found that they were actually granite rocks with a blackened ârindâ and an untouched core of pure granite inside. We had already read in Exodus 19:18, âNow Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire . . . .â
BOUNDARY MARKERS: As we explored further around the base of the mountain, we discovered large piles of rocks arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced about every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across, these piles could be the boundary markers set up by Moses, as he had been instructed by God: â. . . You warned us saying, âset bounds around the mountain and consecrate itââ (Exodus 19:23).
GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by Godâs disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron â. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.â
MOSES' ALTAR and the 12 PILLARS: At the foot of the mountain we found a V-shaped altar, with each arm approximately 60 feet long and 20 feet wide. Next to it were several toppled pillars in sections measuring about 22 inches in diameter and 20 inches in length. Exodus 24:4 records that Moses â. . . built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.â
SPLIT ROCK AT HOREB: (Full credit for verification and documentation of the split rock at Horeb goes to Jim and Penny Caldwell, who conducted their research while living in Saudi Arabia.) One of the most startling discoveries at Jabal al Lawz was a massive, prominent, split rock on the west side of Jabal al Lawz, which showed evidence of gushing water from within - jagged rocks that had been smoothed off by an abundant flow of water. Exodus 17:6 records Godâs instructions to Moses when the Israelites were dying of thirst in the wilderness: âBehold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.â
CAVE OF ELIJAH: High on the mountain was a cave by which Elijah may have stood to hear Godâs voice, as described in 1 Kings 19:18b, 13b: â. . . and he went . . . as far as Horeb, the mountain of God . . . . and he went out and stood in the entrance of the cave . . . .â
This expedition yielded the first of a wealth of compelling new evidence, to suggest that the Strait of Tiran on the Gulf of Aqaba was the crossing point for the route of the Exodus, and that Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the true Mount Sinai.
The real significance in all this is that the Bible again has apparently been shown to be true, reliable, and accurate, down to the smallest historical detail. Critics who claim that the Bible does not coincide with known history and geography are again shown to be wrong once the physical evidence begins to surface. The account in the Bible is true, and the implications are incredible.
God descended on Mount Sinai in flames like a furnace. He spoke to Moses and gave him the Ten Commandments as the laws for the life of Israel. He communicated His love and mercy through the laws for sacrifice and atonement. And though we are unworthy, He gave us the opportunity to enter into a personal, caring relationship with the Eternal Father.
The exploits of the BASE Institute team may sound like a treasure hunt to others, but a more important adventure awaits those who would seek out the treasures of the Word of God. The Bible reveals His plan for reconciliation - and the most important discovery any of us can ever make is how to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the best adventure.
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03/10/2005 05:34:08 PM · #297 |
The conversation has been generally cordial and civil in this thread, but I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is about the afterlife and should not degrade into a debate about the christian bible, jesus or even religion in general.
Reposted for clarity. PLEASE confine your discussion to the thread topic. You may start another thread if you wish to continue discussing religion.
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03/10/2005 05:36:35 PM · #298 |
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03/10/2005 05:37:16 PM · #299 |
| Especially the part about "Satin." ??? |
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03/10/2005 06:12:06 PM · #300 |
If there is no spiritual afterlife how did Hobo know that Banjo was dead before I did?
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