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03/10/2005 03:23:50 PM · #251 |
I walked around outside one of the great cathedrals of Europe, looking at the structure of the building, the architecture, the design, the stones raised one upon another, thinking about the history, the people, the place, the genius of construction from a thousand years past. Then I stepped through the arched doorway inside and found myself kneeling beneath those radiating flowers, the Rose Windows, my spirit caught up in wonder at the beauty, glory and transcendence.
What is the "arched doorway"? Jesus offers this invitation: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." |
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03/10/2005 03:28:58 PM · #252 |
| God did created many things for us to appreciate its beauty...we've put a monetary value on them not Him. And over and over in scripture God rewarded people with followers, land, money/riches, animals, etc. Having things doesn't make you greedy; wanting more does. |
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03/10/2005 03:29:38 PM · #253 |
I am getting confused here,
How can a practising Christian believe in re-incarnation? It goes against the whole Christian belief! I thought, trying to remember back to my upbringing, that beliefs of Christian was to live a good life and worship God and theie reward would be a place in heaven for eternity...
So, how does re-incarnation fit in?
And, yes...I believe in an afterlife. I tend towards pagan beliefs and accept the existence of a spirit world.
Steve |
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03/10/2005 03:33:32 PM · #254 |
| I'm confused, too. Who are you talking about? I must've missed the posts about re-incarnation. |
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03/10/2005 03:34:45 PM · #255 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
I am getting confused here,
How can a practising Christian believe in re-incarnation? It goes against the whole Christian belief! I thought, trying to remember back to my upbringing, that beliefs of Christian was to live a good life and worship God and theie reward would be a place in heaven for eternity...
So, how does re-incarnation fit in?
And, yes...I believe in an afterlife. I tend towards pagan beliefs and accept the existence of a spirit world.
Steve |
Where in the Bible does it say that reincarnation is wrong?
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03/10/2005 03:37:05 PM · #256 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Where in the Bible does it say that reincarnation is wrong? |
Hehe...the way you asked that, you make it sound like it could be done in willfully and rebelliously.
"Thou shalt not reincarnate."
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 15:37:31.
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03/10/2005 03:39:28 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by Formerlee:
I am getting confused here,
How can a practising Christian believe in re-incarnation? It goes against the whole Christian belief! I thought, trying to remember back to my upbringing, that beliefs of Christian was to live a good life and worship God and theie reward would be a place in heaven for eternity...
So, how does re-incarnation fit in?
And, yes...I believe in an afterlife. I tend towards pagan beliefs and accept the existence of a spirit world.
Steve |
Where in the Bible does it say that reincarnation is wrong? |
It doesn't say it's wrong! It states that by worshipping God you will enter the kingdom of heaven for eternity/judgement day. Unless I am mistaken, eternity means a LONG time, not just a quick stopover. Judgement Day means, that's all folks!
I don't recall any mention of reincarnation in the Bible for that matter?
Steve |
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03/10/2005 03:39:33 PM · #258 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
.... Having things doesn't make you greedy; wanting more does. |
I am truly confused by this comment. Are you suggesting that people such as myself who grew up in dire poverty... managed to get an education ...a good job... and wanted more for themselves and their children than they initially had .............are greedy.
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03/10/2005 03:41:18 PM · #259 |
| I honestly don't know. Maybe? To answer your question, no, I wasn't directly suggesting that but maybe it is greedy. I don't know. |
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03/10/2005 03:45:11 PM · #260 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
I am getting confused here,
How can a practising Christian believe in re-incarnation? It goes against the whole Christian belief! I thought, trying to remember back to my upbringing, that beliefs of Christian was to live a good life and worship God and theie reward would be a place in heaven for eternity...
So, how does re-incarnation fit in?
And, yes...I believe in an afterlife. I tend towards pagan beliefs and accept the existence of a spirit world.
Steve |
Well, here is how I see it. Like I said, MANY things have been altered from the original Bible. Whether you want to believe in reincarnation or not, I think anyone would have to admit that what you are reading today and what was originally put into text are probably night and day.
Second, and I apologize for not being able to quote or guide you to sources right now as this post caught be a bit off-guard, there have been quite a few scholarly references to the fact that older and more original versions of the Bible DID mention reincarnation. Again, perhaps removed because the threat of one life, Heaven or Hell was an easier way to make people do what you wanted?
Also, in my belief, I am not Rob Socha. That's the flesh that's carrying me around. If we TRULY believe in our eternal soul, does it make sense to hang our entire identity on the 70 to 90 years or so that we exist here?
Another thing that bothers me about the Christian Heaven / Hell concept and the belief that we get ONE chance here is this:
We have all read stories about people who were severly and I mean SEVERELY abused as children....daily beatings, burned, locked in a closet, starved, etc. Those people sometimes grow up to be killers themselves. Are they going to Hell? Their life was constant abuse and torture and then when they turn around and kill someone at 18 years old, they are doomed to Hell? That's their ONE shot at life? Wow, talk about a vengeful God.
If we are truly eternal, it would be my guess that our SOUL is who we are, and that life or lives on this Earth would be a series of learning experiences for our soul until we learn enough to become more "Godly".
Maybe when we learn enough and comprehend enough, we can stay.
Whether people believe in reincarnation or not, I personally don't see where or why it would be offensive to Christians. What would be wrong with the same groups of souls ( family and friends) going back to experience different lives, hardships, relationships, struggles and learning experiences all together?
Yoda said it best "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter"
And with THAT bit of nerdism, I shall sign off and see what you have to say. |
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03/10/2005 03:50:42 PM · #261 |
[/quote]
Where in the Bible does it say that reincarnation is wrong? [/quote]
The Judeo-Christian faith worldview does not include reincarnation. It doesn't not say that reincarnation is wrong, but simply does not view life/death/afterlife in these terms. One of the clearest statements regarding this can be found in a very Jewish-Christian book in the Bible, the Book of "Hebrews", where the writer states, "Just as humans are destined to die once and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. |
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03/10/2005 03:53:09 PM · #262 |
Originally posted by charliebaker:
...
The Judeo-Christian faith worldview does not include reincarnation. It doesn't not say that reincarnation is wrong, but simply does not view life/death/afterlife in these terms. One of the clearest statements regarding this can be found in a very Jewish-Christian book in the Bible, the Book of "Hebrews", where the writer states, "Just as humans are destined to die once and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. |
...But the christian faith believes that you must be "born again". Why not be born again "in the flesh"?
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 15:55:19. |
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03/10/2005 04:00:15 PM · #263 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
In all my studies, I am in total wonder at our consciousness. Science can explain much but it can not explain consciousness. It is this fact that leads me to accept a creator. |
Daniel, have you ever heard of the book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes? You might be interested in its hypothesis, which I'll repeat from the book's jacket:
"What is human consciousness, where did it come from, and what is its place in the material world? These are questions that have puzzled mankind for centuries, and here presented is an entirely new, yet still soberly scientific way to look at human nature -- one that demands a revolutionary reinterpretation of human history and human behavior. Based on recent laboratory studies of the brain and a close reading of the archaeological evidence, psychologist Julian Jaynes shows us how ancient peoples from Mesopotamia to Peru could not "think" as we do today, and were therefore not conscious. Unable to introspect, they experienced auditory hallucinations -- voices of gods, actually heard as in the Old Testament or the Iliad -- which, coming from the brain's right hemisphere, told a person what to do in circumstances of novelty or stress. This ancient mentality is called the bicameral mind. Only catastrophe and cataclysm forced mankind to learn consciousness, and that happened only 3000 years ago. Not a product of animal evolution but of human history and culture, consciousness is ultimately grounded in the physiology of the brain's right and left hemispheres. Julian Jaynes examines three forms of human awareness -- the bicameral or god-run man; the modern or problem-solving man; and contemporary forms of throwbacks to bicamerality: hypnotism, schizophrenia, poetic and religious frenzy, among other phenomena."
As I said, it's an hypothesis. Difficult to prove, but he makes quite an interesting argument. But then the existence of God is an hypothesis too, no? Not trying to talk you out of your belief in God either, I hope you understand that. :) |
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03/10/2005 04:00:23 PM · #264 |
Here is just one example of a "reincarnation" story that has at least opened my mind to the possibility. And of course there's the one from my niece. I took this off the internet, there are literally thousands of such stories.
"Ever since my son was very young, he has always been scared of the shower. Every time I take him near the shower, he screams and cries and I can't understand why.
Not too long ago, my son, who is now four years old, came to me and told me a story that sent chills up and down my spine and made me cry. That afternoon I had asked him, "Why don't you take a shower today instead of a bath. He said, "I don't want to die, Mommy."
I asked, "What are you talking about?"
He answered, "I died in the shower with my other mommy." I asked him again what he was talking about, and he said very clearly, "The army men made me and Mommy go in the shower with all the other people, and we died."
The first thing that came to my mind was the horror of the Holocaust, but we have never allowed him to watch anything on television dealing with the Holocaust. He still is adamant about not going in the shower, and sometimes he tells me little details which are impossible for him to know.
For instance, he says that he had "boo boo's" all over his body that itched all day, and that he always got yelled at for scratching them. I've heard of the horrible body lice that people in the concentration camps had to endure. He also talks about dogs. He is scared to death of dogs and says he was bitten by a dog on his leg. The area where he says he was bitten has a birthmark."
Who knows?
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03/10/2005 04:01:14 PM · #265 |
Originally posted by charliebaker:
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Where in the Bible does it say that reincarnation is wrong? [/quote]
The Judeo-Christian faith worldview does not include reincarnation. It doesn't not say that reincarnation is wrong, but simply does not view life/death/afterlife in these terms. One of the clearest statements regarding this can be found in a very Jewish-Christian book in the Bible, the Book of "Hebrews", where the writer states, "Just as humans are destined to die once and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. [/quote]
I think that sums up what I was trying to say quite nicely.
rscorp, I agree with you. I have been interested in belief systems and ancient cultures for many years and what you say about the original/older versions of the Bible is very true. The newer versions have been bastardised to suit doctrine of their time. With this drastic rewriting, much of the older and truer Christian way has been lost.
I am not anti any belief system and have studied many to see what makes them tick. Belief is a personal thing that people should be free to follow without fear of persecution. Would that it was that easy, we see examples of intolerance between religious groups every day in the news.
This thread has developed into a cecular debate, when the original questioner merely asked who believed in the afterlife. It is not a simple question that has a simple answer, nor is a rage against one religion or another.
Steve |
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03/10/2005 04:05:27 PM · #266 |
this is interesting to me ... i'm hoping maybe someone can point to a place on the web which talks more about it.
Originally posted by Formerlee:
what you say about the original/older versions of the Bible is very true. The newer versions have been bastardised to suit doctrine of their time. With this drastic rewriting, much of the older and truer Christian way has been lost. |
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03/10/2005 04:08:01 PM · #267 |
I'm in complete agreement. I chose to bring up reincarnation because I hadnt seen anyone else mention it, and I suppose it's just as likely a scenario as anything else.
When it comes down to it, my guess is that if we try to treat our fellow man and Earth as graciously as we can, and try to help people as much as possible, then we've done our job whether we're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.
We'll all find out exactly what happens only when we die, the rest is faith, personal belief and speculation. It's an interesting subject none the less and a great conversation topic as long as people don't get carried away. |
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03/10/2005 04:12:02 PM · #268 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
With this drastic rewriting, much of the older and truer Christian way has been lost. |
Drastic rewriting?
That's an overstatement...weren't most scholars shocked to discover the accuracy of our current texts as compared to the dead sea scrolls?
I said I wouldn't get into this...but you need to defend a statement that claims that the bible has been 'drastically rewritten'.
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03/10/2005 04:15:18 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
I'm in complete agreement. I chose to bring up reincarnation because I hadnt seen anyone else mention it, and I suppose it's just as likely a scenario as anything else.
When it comes down to it, my guess is that if we try to treat our fellow man and Earth as graciously as we can, and try to help people as much as possible, then we've done our job whether we're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.
We'll all find out exactly what happens only when we die, the rest is faith, personal belief and speculation. It's an interesting subject none the less and a great conversation topic as long as people don't get carried away. |
I completely agree! The topic is great, it can cause problems, but it is very enlightening.
I try to follow a basic pagan belief which is very easy to understand.
Respect all things.
Take only what you need, and give back what you can.
Respect the beliefs of all people.
Honour the Earth Mother.
Respect the Creator.
Honour your ancestors.
Be a teacher while being a student.
It sounds cliched, but it works for me:)
Steve |
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03/10/2005 04:16:23 PM · #270 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
...
We'll all find out exactly what happens only when we die, the rest is faith, personal belief and speculation. It's an interesting subject none the less and a great conversation topic as long as people don't get carried away. |
The problem, of course, is that people DO get carried away. Witness: George Bush was God's choice for president.
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03/10/2005 04:17:11 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
Here is just one example of a "reincarnation" story that has at least opened my mind to the possibility. And of course there's the one from my niece. I took this off the internet, there are literally thousands of such stories.
"Ever since my son was very young, he has always been scared of the shower. Every time I take him near the shower, he screams and cries and I can't understand why.
Not too long ago, my son, who is now four years old, came to me and told me a story that sent chills up and down my spine and made me cry. That afternoon I had asked him, "Why don't you take a shower today instead of a bath. He said, "I don't want to die, Mommy."
I asked, "What are you talking about?"
He answered, "I died in the shower with my other mommy." I asked him again what he was talking about, and he said very clearly, "The army men made me and Mommy go in the shower with all the other people, and we died."
The first thing that came to my mind was the horror of the Holocaust, but we have never allowed him to watch anything on television dealing with the Holocaust. He still is adamant about not going in the shower, and sometimes he tells me little details which are impossible for him to know.
For instance, he says that he had "boo boo's" all over his body that itched all day, and that he always got yelled at for scratching them. I've heard of the horrible body lice that people in the concentration camps had to endure. He also talks about dogs. He is scared to death of dogs and says he was bitten by a dog on his leg. The area where he says he was bitten has a birthmark."
Who knows? |
this is what i wanted to hear! I am so fascinated with these sorts of stories. I know it isnt about ghosts but there are just some things that are just known to us. My husband seems to think it is some kind of genetic memory. I can see where he is coming from, but i believe it goes way deeper than this. I would love to hear more of these sort of stories or ones where people have actually been contacted by departed. PM me if you dont want it on the forum
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03/10/2005 04:19:02 PM · #272 |
It's been said many times (and I'm not sure of how much is true) that the first Pope allowed many high-society men to pay to have things put in the Bible, and versely, taken out. Ultimately, God said that He wouldn't allow His word to be corrupted. That said, I'd have to agree that today's Bible is very close to the originals.
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03/10/2005 04:24:06 PM · #273 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Formerlee:
With this drastic rewriting, much of the older and truer Christian way has been lost. |
Drastic rewriting?
That's an overstatement...weren't most scholars shocked to discover the accuracy of our current texts as compared to the dead sea scrolls?
I said I wouldn't get into this...but you need to defend a statement that claims that the bible has been 'drastically rewritten'. |
Oh, perhaps I was wrong?
It seems I may have to seek a lawyer!
The Modern Bible wasn't re-written...it was amputated. Why are there just the four episles...Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? What happened to the others? The ones they chose not to include...Philip, Peter etc?
Or the translations from Hebrew that have been proved to be wrong? After all this time and after so much research by experts in Hebrew have stated the wrong meanings or ambigiuos meanings have been used in the scriptures, why is the Bible still unaltered?
Why are there two creations of Man stories in Genesis?
I could go on, but this is a photographic site!
Steve |
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03/10/2005 04:30:32 PM · #274 |
The Dead Sea Scrolls are in fact in their basic writings very similar to many of todays versions of the Old Testament, however they contain other books, stories, etc that have been eliminated.
The part of the Bible that would have been changed most often would have been the New Testament, especially in the "Dark Ages". When some of the more corrupt Popes and Kings decided to change things, they got changed. People weren't really in a position to know or do much about it back then. The important message survived though, even if some details were lost or changed. |
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03/10/2005 04:32:17 PM · #275 |
According to Catholic Dogma there are no Ghosts, really, just demons. All souls are disposed of quite immediately after bodily separation.
Heaven, hell, or limbo. No hanging around and haunting ala Wes Craven or Patrick Swayze in Ghost.
Demons are always tricking people into believeing in things it seems, according to religion. If you try to "channel" your dead relatives, the church would say that you aren't talking to Uncle floyd, its a demon. Witchcraft is said to be surrendering power to Satan, or demons. When you look for "elemental power"- because you feel weak or spiritually void in your own life,or you have a mental illness, and try to gain power through Witchcraft, you are really being used by evil forces. Thats what the Church says.
I think we all like to be scared and titilated and think that there is more meaning in things. Thats why I said, if you really use a little common sense, there really are not ghosts...it makes no sense! also, although I think there may be life somewhere else in the Universe, maybe, there is no where close enough to contact us, without wormholes, and why would people in South Carolina and New Mexico be the ones to be contacted? Its all bullshit, but we love TV and forcefed Bullshit.
There is a phenomen that thay say explains most UFO sightings in remote places, especially New HAmphire, North East Capital of Ufo Sightings.
THey say the when subterranean Granite breaks or shifts or rubs together
a surface disturbance occurs, kind of a shock wave. It just so happens that if you are in this shock field, you feel a loss of time, possibly consciousness, you see colors, bright ones, and you feel a sense of dazed euphoria. anyway, that accounts for a lot of UFO sightings. There aren't to many GOD sightings really, not too many at all. PEople think you are even crazier if you say you saw God than a UFO.
If people really sat back and said hey, why do I believe what I believe, and why do I want to believe there is a heaven or afterlife or aliens or ghosts, all the answers become clearer, and life gets more depressing. SO, if it is you "opiate" keep believing in ghosts and spacemen and alien ghosts and predator vs. mel gibson playing a reincarnated Jesus. If it gets you through the night. |
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