| Author | Thread |
|
|
03/10/2005 02:11:38 PM · #201 |
yup, that's the basic idea ... but there's right and wrong ways to do everything. Christians make mistakes, and can be very pushy, and very judgemental ... and that makes ALL christians look bad ... unfortunately.
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by dragonlady:
Whatever works for you is the right thing for you...as long as people don't impose their will on me, I don't care. |
Have people been doing that to you? Seriously, I'm not being facetious. I think the standard belief is that people 'of faith' want to impose their beliefs, but I don't know any Christian or person of other faith who actually goes about doing that. I do know a lot (myself included) who will get in on these debates and be passionate. I don't think any of it is meant to be offensive - maybe blunt, but not offensive. |
But, goldberry, if you truly believed the basic christian tenet - that, unless you believe and accept etc. etc., you'll not go to heaven, - then why not impose your beliefs?? What's the risk? That you'll fail to convince me?? OTOH, you might convince me and - lo and behold - I'll enter the pearly gates alongside you. |
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:13:09 PM · #202 |
hey now, I thought we weren't supposed to be insulting people here! lol
My sister and hubby (see First German Baby thread) are missionaries in Germany. Teens come to them for guidance, they don't go out pulling people off curbs and into smelly cube vans so they can huddle in the dark and be hynotized. hahah I know many missionaries who do great work. God said to first give shoes to a man who's barefoot before teaching him God's love. People go willing to hear the message.
Isn't that their choice? And isn't that what people are talking about: having the right to make a choice without being looked down on for it?
Making a blanket accusation that all missionaries are up to no good is sad to me.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:14:04 PM · #203 |
I think there's a difference between "spreading good news" and imposing your beliefs on somebody.
You're right, lenk...as a follower of jesus the christ, i really would love for others to be discipled as well.
The thing is, Jesus said that people would recognize his followers through love and compassion. I think those are the tools of many missionaries as well. Sure, a lot of crap has happened in the name of Jesus...but a lot of great things, too.
I don't know any 'group' that's trying harder to get people to realize the problem of the AIDS pandemic in Africa than christians. There are many hypocrites, but there are many true followers trying to do what is right and good and true with love.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:14:36 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by scottwilson:
The thing with the afterlife is that the first few thousand years or so are pretty cool, then the next million seem to really drag and by the time the first billion years have gone by you are truly getting bored. |
So what do you believe again? I missed it in your posts...
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:16:54 PM · #205 |
| What one person finds pushy and offensive might be just what another person needs to hear. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:16:58 PM · #206 |
| i wouldn't confuse christians with humanitarians. not all humanitarians are christians. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:17:01 PM · #207 |
As long as we're just talking... why Bible? After all, it's been only a couple of hundred years. Before bible we had polytheistic societies, notably greeks and romans. Don't forget the far eastern philosophical approaches to religious beliefs. And Jesus was not the last prophet to come down to earth - Islam showed up some 500 years later and yet another monotheistic major religion appeared in this world.
All have afterlife. (I'll mention afterlife just to stay on the topic of main thread).
Disclaimer: I am still agnostic, and have no fear to propose thesis like this: Why do some of us consider and recommend christianity as THE way to believe. Applying the same reasoning that christians use to propel their religious beliefs over preceding religions, you can supersede the christianity with islam (which does not deny the existence of christianity, rather logically concatenates and expands it.)
I highly recommend the following book to all that have the time to read (and I'm sure that, based on your postings here, many would be interested in it - curiosity did not kill anyone, right?)
The Dictionary of Khazars by Milorad Pavic. Fun text to read.
Dictionary of Khazars
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:17:33 PM · #208 |
:) LOL
I believe time is created, just like the universe, so the afterlife will not be based on what we now call "time". Not sure what that will be like, but I hope it's not boring.
Originally posted by scottwilson:
The thing with the afterlife is that the first few thousand years or so are pretty cool, then the next million seem to really drag and by the time the first billion years have gone by you are truly getting bored. |
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:19:18 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by scottwilson:
The thing with the afterlife is that the first few thousand years or so are pretty cool, then the next million seem to really drag and by the time the first billion years have gone by you are truly getting bored. |
So what do you believe again? I missed it in your posts... |
I believe there is an outside possibly that I exist, after that is gets pretty fuzzy. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:19:58 PM · #210 |
Originally posted by scottwilson:
The thing with the afterlife is that the first few thousand years or so are pretty cool, then the next million seem to really drag and by the time the first billion years have gone by you are truly getting bored. |
LOL That's funny when you think of it as regular time. Except 'time' isn't a recognized concept to God. If heaven was ruled by regular time like we rule our lives, you're right, an eternity ANYWHERE would probably bore the crap out of you :-) |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:20:45 PM · #211 |
You see we are in a garden of ignorance. Those that do not believe in God will argue that if they were God, they would have made a hell of a better world, certainly without pain, hunger etc. So, if God is perfect, why not a perfect world.
Those that do believe in God but not religion maintain that while they do not understand the designs of life they accept a mystery.
Those that do believe in a personal God and religion maintain that all of Gods designs are not given to man. Another mystery. However, their faith is a great vehicle and we all know that faith can move mountains.
So now, these are three different viewpoints. Let us assume that each has reached their convictions in a serious manner.
Therefore, it would be the height of folly for one camp to attack the other or for one camp to feel superior to the other. Again, we are dealing with the same questions that has beset our histotical past in search for answers.
We are very funny. That is we are born and we are given a name. An ego evolves at once and inflates our little heads. We therefore give high credence to the convictions we have gathered. All of us are stuck in a belief system and don't even know it. It is from that viewpoint that we express ourselves. The non believers fear entrenchment from the believers and the believers feel insulted when the non believers attack them. Those that believe in a creator but not religion are also stuck in their beliefs.
We have no winners and the humane thing to do is simply to respect the other because the believers, non believers, agnostics and those that simply accept a creator can never prove their viewpoint to the other. This is simply a fact. To say that any one camp is superior is folly.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 14:25:18. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:22:08 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by hopper:
:) LOL
I believe time is created, just like the universe, so the afterlife will not be based on what we now call "time". Not sure what that will be like, but I hope it's not boring.
|
Interesting, if time was created how long do you suppose it took to create it? |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:24:23 PM · #213 |
very true ... but perhaps if we all bring our collective intelligence to the table and talk about it, we will indeed discover the truth.
besides ... i'm bored at work
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Therefore, it would be the height of folly for one camp to attack the other or for one camp to feel superior to the other. Again, we are dealing with the same questions that has beset our histotical past in search for answers. |
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:26:07 PM · #214 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by dragonlady:
Whatever works for you is the right thing for you...as long as people don't impose their will on me, I don't care. |
Have people been doing that to you? Seriously, I'm not being facetious. I think the standard belief is that people 'of faith' want to impose their beliefs, but I don't know any Christian or person of other faith who actually goes about doing that. |
In many countries, including mine and the USA, the laws (from country to city) are heavily influenced by religious groups all the time. Those laws or the absence of laws by that influence are in a way imposing a religous will on people.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:27:21 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
In many countries, including mine and the USA, the laws (from country to city) are heavily influenced by religious groups all the time. Those laws or the absence of laws by that influence are in a way imposing a religous will on people. |
Oh boy...this thread will spin out of control in about 12 posts if this turns into a debate on who makes the laws in a true democracy...
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 14:27:44.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:31:16 PM · #216 |
Originally posted by scottwilson:
Originally posted by hopper:
:) LOL
I believe time is created, just like the universe, so the afterlife will not be based on what we now call "time". Not sure what that will be like, but I hope it's not boring.
|
Interesting, if time was created how long do you suppose it took to create it? |
Here's what I REALLY believe...
That when I die my ego (or consciousness) will resurface elsewhere and elsewhen (could be past, present, or future). We're really all one and the same - only different manifestations of that singularity. That I perceive myself as "in this body" is here and now.
...Someday I'll be you (and you me).
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:31:46 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
You see we are in a garden of ignorance. Those that do not believe in God will argue that if they were God, they would have made a hell of a better world, certainly without pain, hunger etc. So, if God is perfect, why not a perfect world. |
If a non-believer says "If I were God" he is essentialy acknowledging the existence of that God and therefore still a believer. The group that says this is in kind of denial.
So if you want to make your summing up of groups complete, add the group "those that do not believe in god. END."
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:32:13 PM · #218 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by scottwilson:
The thing with the afterlife is that the first few thousand years or so are pretty cool, then the next million seem to really drag and by the time the first billion years have gone by you are truly getting bored. |
LOL That's funny when you think of it as regular time. Except 'time' isn't a recognized concept to God. If heaven was ruled by regular time like we rule our lives, you're right, an eternity ANYWHERE would probably bore the crap out of you :-) |
So now we get to the really interesting question, one which I find most Christian have not give much thought to, what is the nature of heaven?
Will you still interact with others?
Will you still be an individual in some sense?
Will you remember your life.
Will you seem to have a body?
Will you be able to think as you now do using words, will you be able to communicate using words?
Will you have vision of some sort?
Will you be able to catch up with loved ones who have departed?
Will you be able to learn in heaven, perhaps pick up a second language?
Forget my questions for the moment, what do those of you who believe you are going to have an afterlife envision the afterlife to be like?
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:32:39 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
In many countries, including mine and the USA, the laws (from country to city) are heavily influenced by religious groups all the time. Those laws or the absence of laws by that influence are in a way imposing a religous will on people. |
Oh boy...this thread will spin out of control in about 12 posts if this turns into a debate on who makes the laws in a true democracy... |
There is no true democracy. Nowhere.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:33:29 PM · #220 |
It seems to me there is a bit too much certainty in some of these answers. The afterlife and God's plan are supposed to be a mystery, an eternal one at that. What mortal has the hubris to say they understand God, and are capable of explaining all his motives and purpose?
Two quotes I like " Pride goeth before a fall"
"Follow the man who asks question, run from the man who has all answers." |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:36:34 PM · #221 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
It seems to me there is a bit too much certainty in some of these answers. The afterlife and God's plan are supposed to be a mystery, an eternal one at that. What mortal has the hubris to say they understand God, and are capable of explaining all his motives and purpose?
Two quotes I like " Pride goeth before a fall"
"Follow the man who asks question, run from the man who has all answers." |
But if we don't have answers, ..upon what are we to base our decisions?
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:39:55 PM · #222 |
Apart from all other debate, I picture 'heaven' to be very earth-like...just without the junk.
I think we will finally begin to understand who God is but we will always be learning more about and from him. I picture lots of exploring. I know that I will be able to smoke cigarettes again in heaven (finally!) and I assume that we will enjoy things we've only 'dreamt' about...the sensation of flying, being in space, being able to love completely, understand God's absolute concept of beauty.
I've often wondered how sex will translate in the eternal realm...I mean, it's one of the beauties of creation, what is the full and complete version of it without all the garbage to screw it up?
I will finally begin to understand who I am, who God has created me to be...I will know my friends and family completely and understand them as well. I won't get toothaches and my eye will finally stop twitching. I will breath deep the very presence of God.
|
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:40:12 PM · #223 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
In many countries, including mine and the USA, the laws (from country to city) are heavily influenced by religious groups all the time. Those laws or the absence of laws by that influence are in a way imposing a religous will on people. |
Oh boy...this thread will spin out of control in about 12 posts if this turns into a debate on who makes the laws in a true democracy... |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lol. That is true, here come the politics. In defense of many of the laws let us consider the following.
A worthy religion arises to bring a sense of psychological order to the believers. Instead of each person reasoning what is right and wrong, the religion operates from the viewpoint that its' God is perfect and creates a code of ethics with a good bulk which applies to all human beings. These include, the respect for the life of others, their property and general conduct to coexist in a society. Not many of us can argue with these precepts. The people that founded America did so from the intitial belief that we are endowed with the right to exist and be free. I find nothing wrong with this. They simply placed the creator and not the Kings of England above the human equation. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:42:36 PM · #224 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Apart from all other debate, I picture 'heaven' to be very earth-like...just without the junk. |
Hey neat, I'm already in heaven, cool. |
|
|
|
03/10/2005 02:43:47 PM · #225 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
But if we don't have answers, ..upon what are we to base our decisions? |
Belifes, evidence, proofs, visions, hints, life experience, all the things we see, touch, read, sense, and hold to be true. We can choose the path we belive is right, without being sure where it will lead. |
|
