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03/10/2005 10:34:02 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
When the christian god says not to judge, he is saying not to pass judgement on people because of their behaviour or lifestyle... |
EXACTLY MY POINT! Saying someone is not going to heaven because of their lifestyle or behavior is JUDGING THEM!!!! You admitted it yourself. |
I think you have the meaning of "judge" mixed up with something else because you're using it in the wrong context. |
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03/10/2005 10:36:11 AM · #127 |
Originally posted by dragonlady:
I'm not counting on anything beyond this life..if there is more, it will be a bonus. That's why I feel that every day is a gift. |
Good answer. ;-) |
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03/10/2005 10:36:33 AM · #128 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full. |
You haven't mentioned anything about where this new Love would come from? The point is that pure love comes from God and His Son when you're talking about the Christian faith. |
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03/10/2005 10:40:17 AM · #129 |
Scalvert, your posts are refreshing...they are well thought out and gracious.
Of course, I disagree with your points but this debate has been played out before by much more intelligent people advocating both sides...you probably already know the rebuttal to your comment on the 'telephone game' argument (one would be the dead sea scrolls) as well as the "flat earth, sun revolving around the earth" argument.
I've tried to stop arguing so much for the logical validity of what I believe...I mean, it's all been done before. If I want to offer great logical arguments to counter your points I should just send you to C.S. Lewis or Ravi Zacharias...and you, in turn, could send me to other great thinkers.
I've decided that if Jesus is changing who I am, the core of my being, it should be evident to those around me. If I'm being made into a new creature by a God who is the source of love then I should shut my mouth more often and go encourage somebody or snuff out some evil somewhere.
Peace,
Mike
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 10:41:15.
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03/10/2005 10:41:08 AM · #130 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dragonlady:
I'm not counting on anything beyond this life..if there is more, it will be a bonus. That's why I feel that every day is a gift. |
Good answer. ;-) |
Except any and all "religions" that teach about the afterlife all have guidelines on how to get to the 'good' part of it. So technically speaking (in a candid manner) if you don't believe in any religion at all (not buddhism, christianity, judaism, etc etc) then you've got no chance for anything but bad stuff in the afterlife. I'm just pointing out the obvious here.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 10:41:38. |
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03/10/2005 10:42:23 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Except any and all "religions" that teach about the afterlife all have guidelines on how to get to the 'good' part of it. So technically speaking (in a candid manner) if you don't believe in any religion at all (not buddhism, christianity, judaism, etc etc) then you've got no chance for anything but bad stuff in the afterlife. I'm just pointing out the obvious here. |
I disagree with the way you've stated this. This sounds like Pascal's wager to the extreme...
I would agree, however, that it's important to search diligently for all that is true and good.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 10:43:14.
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03/10/2005 10:48:50 AM · #132 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
...any and all "religions" that teach about the afterlife all have guidelines on how to get to the 'good' part of it. |
Since no religion commands more than 50% of the world's population, most of us are doomed anyway. The best we can do is be nice to others within the context of our own cultures and beliefs (as thatcloudthere demonstrates). ;-) |
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03/10/2005 10:52:19 AM · #133 |
| Yes I believe in an afterlife. Heaven is being in the presence of God and his light, Hell is the absence of God. Nuff' said from me. |
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03/10/2005 10:57:49 AM · #134 |
Wondering if anyone else has read Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons"? Of course it's a ficton work, but the underlying premise is the tension between religion and science. there were a few passages which made me stop and think. One in particular talked about the literal "God talking to mortals" being equated to moments of heightened brain functionality. The idea was that God is within all of us, but not everyone had learned to open those gates. We use only a small portion of our mind's capabilities...
Having been mostly in the science camp my life, I tend to look to conservation of energy for answers to the question about the nature of our life and the afterlife. If we considered the possibility that we are constructed of an energy that is God, it seems to be even more likely.
If you've enjoyed this thread, you'd probably like Brown's book as well.
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03/10/2005 10:59:48 AM · #135 |
| The Bible - the biggest selling fiction novel ever! |
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03/10/2005 11:04:38 AM · #136 |
Please be reminded that posts off topic will be considered "thread-jacking" and will be (or has been) hidden. The topic at hand, as a reminder, is about the afterlife.
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03/10/2005 11:08:07 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Please be reminded that posts off topic will be considered "thread-jacking" and will be (or has been) hidden. The topic at hand, as a reminder, is about the afterlife. |
...the possible result of good Karma. ;-) |
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03/10/2005 11:12:06 AM · #138 |
gotta love my name sometimes. :-)
hehe
Disclaimor: It is my name, not my "lifestyle." :-)
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03/10/2005 11:24:32 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by nsbca7:
If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full. |
You haven't mentioned anything about where this new Love would come from? The point is that pure love comes from God and His Son when you're talking about the Christian faith. |
Who said anything about new love. And what is the Christian faith? To me being a Christian is to try to be like Jesus as much as one possibly can. If Jesus is the embodiment of God's love then we should try to fill our hearts with love. It is all very simple. Why such a need for the complicated. As far as other religions go perhaps God came to the people of other cultures in ways that they would better accept and understand. I don't know. And niether has anyone else that I have ever spoken to been given divine knowledge. (But I'm not sure about that either)
I hear self proclaimed Christians speak of so much that is un-Christlike in the name of Christianity be be almost sickening. Did you know that the invasion of Iraq was ordained by God?
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03/10/2005 11:28:03 AM · #140 |
Do dogs have souls or spirits?
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03/10/2005 11:37:31 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Do dogs have souls or spirits? |
All dogs go to heaven.
And in regards to your thoughts on what Jesus taught...you've oversimplified what he has said. You seem to have removed the complicated, difficult stuff that caused hundreds of disciples to say "this is too weird" and leave him with only 12.
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03/10/2005 11:38:43 AM · #142 |
they do, huh?
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
All dogs go to heaven. |
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03/10/2005 11:43:36 AM · #143 |
Originally posted by hopper:
they do, huh?
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
All dogs go to heaven. |
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I don't know...from a christian standpoint, we don't know...
Joni Erickson Tada once said something along the lines of "you know, it would be just like God to surprise me with my dog in heaven!" and CS Lewis opined that perhaps some pets do end up in heaven because of the love they've received from their owners...total and utter 'thinking out loud', but from a couple of great thinkers...
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03/10/2005 11:56:36 AM · #144 |
Hmm, afterlife. I've read most of the thread, and I find it to be a good reading.
If there was an afterlife, it must be completely separated from the current world we live in. I haven't seen any evidence (ooh, what a bad word choice for the topic) of communication between these two areas. Barring a semi-permeable membrane between the two areas (e.g. after-lifers are aware of the current world, but we can't take a peek in there), I find it irrelevant if there is such area or not.
That said, there must be a reason for the introduction of a concept of afterlife to this world. Some of the posts have directly dealt with it, and most have to do with people control. I must say that the reasoning for such control over people wasn't always greed and desire to rule and enslave others (although there are numerous occurrencies of such behavior in all religions), but rather for the betterment of overall life in every applicable situation. There is probably a good deal of reason in every rule extrapolated from the holly books, when taken into context of the ages when the rule was first introduced. One of the incentives for the people to honor those rules was a promise of an afterlife, both good and bad depending on one's behavior.
Today, these rules have survived, although the original intent is somewhat changed to appeal to current environment. We have also replaced most of the rules with constitutions and laws in our respective countries, and all of those are supposed to be aimed to improve human relations.
I think that afterlife, as an incentive for good behavior during this verified lifetime, is quickly losing its appeal. I wish it didn't though, as we are deteriorating on a human scale faster then we grow.
I'll start with myself: I have a couple of computers, a couple of cameras, a couple of lenses (just to limit my inventory to DPC-related stuff) while I could have dedicated some if not all of the resources spent on my hobbies to helping e.g. children get malaria vaccines.
I think that it is hypocritical to continue with this - have I committed any sins by today's standards - probably not. And I don't feel like I did. But am I sure?
Do all of you that believe in afterlife (and have a camera, which is majority of people on this forum), drive a car, live in a home that has water, heating, and roof that does not leak even if it is not yours, believe that you will get to the better side of it knowing that there are people that do not have any of the basic necessities? I'm not going to be the one to tell you where you're aimed for, but give it a thought.
Oh yes, even in the old ages of the world, religious institutions have never criticized the kings, sultans, and other rulers - they were their accomplices in spreading misery among the ruled ones. So, there is hope for all of us wealthy - we'll go to heaven.
If I keep going, karmat will stop me and hide my post, as I will likely drift into the areas outside the afterlife scope.
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03/10/2005 12:02:05 PM · #145 |
Recently I've been meditating on the following poem.
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
My opinion on the afterlife? My life (our life) is in God's loving hands, in this life, in death, in the life to come. My life purpose is to live day by day in love with God, in loving others. Thanks for this forum. |
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03/10/2005 12:03:33 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Do all of you that believe in afterlife (and have a camera, which is majority of people on this forum), drive a car, live in a home that has water, heating, and roof that does not leak even if it is not yours, believe that you will get to the better side of it knowing that there are people that do not have any of the basic necessities? I'm not going to be the one to tell you where you're aimed for, but give it a thought. |
Interesting. So by not believing in an afterlife, I could be spared the guilt I'm now incurring by living comfortably?
Anyhow, I think that by sustaining myself and making money, I can be a great contribution to both those in my community and those in other countries. It's unfair of you to suggest otherwise.
I also have a great burden for those who have not and have struggled with how best to help...part of the mandate of the followers of jesus the christ has always been to take care of 'the widow and the orphan'.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 12:07:30.
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03/10/2005 12:06:47 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Do dogs have souls or spirits? |
All dogs go to heaven.
And in regards to your thoughts on what Jesus taught...you've oversimplified what he has said. You seem to have removed the complicated, difficult stuff that caused hundreds of disciples to say "this is too weird" and leave him with only 12. |
To be clear, I think there is a distinction between "disciples" and the 12, which are referred to as "apostles." Example: //www.dictionary.net/apostle
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03/10/2005 12:07:57 PM · #148 |
I am not quite the orthodox student of life. Life as such is a beautiful experience. The Buddha labeled life as Sadness. There is much truth to this and it is one statement I can not refute when you look at the time line of our life. We are all subjected to out share of sadness from injustice to death. On the other side, there are many moments where life is very exalting and these moments I eat up with fervor, knowing that mortality stares me in the face. So the Buddha is right and his wisdom is appreciated but then not all life is sadness.
In search for the secrets of life and the possibility of afterlife, I have studied all the esoteric studies from Astrology, Alchemy, Lucid dreaming, Out of Body Experiences, hypnosis ect., etc.
I was able with the help of self hypnosis to have an out of body experience. This offers a confirmation that life may concurrently exist in many different dimensions at once. The Out of body experience gives you a weightless body, just like the ancients have defined a spirit.
Of course, what you are determines what you will get out of life and out of the after life if there is one. I do believe in a creator, but I do not believe in religion or to be more specific in a personal God. But I do believe that the creatot is the hub of consciousness and all that is.
Now, if you do believe in a personal God or in religion per se that is all right and this state of mind may create an envelope that may be of help in making the transition to the afterlife.
My belief is that I do not know. I am an agnostic but leave the possibility open and like Scalvert has said, I love this experience and if there is an after life it will be the cherry on the Sunday.
In all my studies, I am in total wonder at our consciousness. Science can explain much but it can not explain consciousness. It is this fact that leads me to accept a creator. Like I said elsewhere, only the humble can appreciate a creator. When you think you know it all you become sophisticated, arrogant and conceited. Mm, there is no room here to accept something bigger than you, let alone the possibility of an after life. |
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03/10/2005 12:10:49 PM · #149 |
In the same way, I believe that only the humble can relinquish control of their spiritual self.
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03/10/2005 12:13:54 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Interesting. So by not believing in an afterlife, I could be spared the guilt I'm now incurring by living comfortably?
Anyhow, I think that by sustaining myself and making money, I can be a great contribution to both those in my community and those in other countries. It's unfair of you to suggest otherwise.
I also have a great burden for those who have not and have struggled with how best to help...part of the mandate of the followers of jesus the christ has always been to take care of 'the widow and the orphan'. |
Oh, no, far from that. I ranted a bit, and I may not have conveyed my message clearly. I tried to point to the fact that:
- afterlife is an incentive for better behavior
- that incentive is being often forgotten and ignored
- we lost sense of wealth and how much is enough.
I also do subscribe to theory that I will be better positioned to help others if I have more means to do that accessible to me. I'm just trying to raise awareness that what we consider poor here is by every measure extreme wealth to others, and that we need to at least think about these people from time to time...
But I'm doing this from a secular point of view - I'm perfectly capable of doing it without such incentive.
Great discussion! I love it.
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