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03/03/2005 03:46:21 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Do you mean the companies that pay their employees minimum wage with no health care benefits while they toil in unsafe conditions?
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Do you have any names of the corporations and proof that they received corporate welfare?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Do you mean the companies that are closing down many of their manufacturing plants to move overseas because they refuse to stop their polluting ways or improve working conditions?
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You forgot to mention that many leave because of the unions.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Do you mean the companies that have undertaken dirty illegal business dealings such as insider trading or stolen their employees lifetime retirement savings?
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Oh but they can look forward to wonderful Social Security so who needs a pension? Once again - no compnay names listed.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Are you referring to the benefits that the employees from Enron received? Or maybe the communities of Love Canal or the Hudson River in NY state that is polluted from PCBs from pollution by GE?
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How does this relate to corporate welfare? Did either of these receive it?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The redistribution of wealth in the US is happening all the time, but the question is to whom is it going.
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Liberal believe all corporations are evil because the make profit, which is evil. I hope you don't sell your pictures because you could make a profit and become evil too. Liberals want the government to control all companies. They tried that in Germany once.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Since the Reagan years, it has been going predominantly to the corporations, and the middle and lower classes are getting very little benefits from that.
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So Clinton had 8 years to do something about the evil corporations but didn't. But Reagan's 8 years are still in effect. Makes perfect liberal sense.
Big corporations, especially in Ohio, fund many small towns. The residents do not look upon them with disdain. They are grateful. Companies such as Honda, Ariel, Mead, GM, and others. I work for a huge corporation and I am grateful. And BTW my job is outsourced from Japan. More jobs are insourced to us then we outsource. But that is a fact so you should ignore it.
Message edited by author 2005-03-03 15:48:09. |
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03/03/2005 03:47:24 PM · #52 |
Quit being so self-impressed, kiddo. You've got a lot to learn about the world, especially terrorists. And pay attention to your so-called "facts" ... your posting is factually innacurate and intellectually lazy.
P.S. I hope your blind anger subsides enough to allow you to begin using your own intellect.
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Bush is not only an intellectual idiot, he surrounds himself with the most corrupt and partisan people possible, all having the same agenda.
Regardless of whether they planned or allowed 9/11 to happen, they are sure as hell glad it did. It gave a lame duck president a place in history and a reason to begin the war plans of controlling the #1 energy reserves in the world and made the American sheeple jump to back them.
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03/03/2005 03:50:21 PM · #53 |
One ought not bring Jesus into the discussion without a thorough knowledge of scripture. I doubt that anyone would classify Jesus as not being compassionate, but scripture records this scene in Mark chapter 14 verses 3-7:
"And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her. And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always."
So you see, while giving to the poor may be a good thing, it is not always the best thing - and will never, in and of itself, "solve the problem" anyway.
Then, Paul warns us in I Corinthians chapter 13 verse 3:
"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."
So, Paul explains that giving to the poor is not even always even a "good" thing for the giver to be doing, if not done out of charity. And lest you assume the modern connotation of the word charity, be aware the the word translated as "charity" is, in the Greek, "agape", meaning genuine love, in a moral sense.
Loving the poor doesn't always translate into hand-outs - sometime it transtlates into a hand-up. That is what compassionate conservatism is - finding the proper combination of actions to take care of both the immediate needs and the long term solutions.
And as long as liberals fight to prevent federal funds from being channeled to the poor through faith-based organizations, they not only deny the poor sorely needed assistance, but also expose the inherent lies of their own pontifications about the plight of the poor.
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03/03/2005 04:07:21 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by bbower1956:
Maybe you went to government schools and can't read but I said the federal INCOME tax is unconstitional. And there was no income tax for many, many years after the Constition was drafted.
Government funding of the arts does not produce artists. How can a grant create talent? Why can't it be at the state level and fund raised at the state level? Why should Ohio pay for art in New York? |
To be honest, I went to government schools, and I can read. And what I read in the 16th amendment to THE CONSTITUTION is:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on
incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment
among the several States, and without regard to any census or
enumeration."
That pretty much nails it for me - and, believe me, I am no fan of income taxes - though I am a fan of the Constitution.
And, because I AM a fan of the Constitution, I am NOT a fan of giving government funds to "the arts", just as I am not a fan of giving government funds to the families of those killed in the WTC attack unless equal funds go to the families of every person killed in our country due to sudden circumstances not under their control - those families suffer the loss of their mother / father / sister / brother / partner just as much as the families of the WTC attack did. |
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03/03/2005 04:47:05 PM · #55 |
Thanks Mad, I have read and listened to many articles and lectures by Chomsky. I actually own "Manufacturing Consent" although I have not watched it yet. The list is long and wide of books to read and things to watch. |
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03/03/2005 05:48:00 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by bbower1956:
Maybe you went to government schools and can't read but I said the federal INCOME tax is unconstitional (sic). And there was no income tax for many, many years after the Constition (sic) was drafted. |
Apparently, I can read. If youâre going to argue about the Constitution, it behooves you to learn how to spell it.
Actually, itâs kind of funny, I wrote my reply last night and went to bed. The moment my head hit the pillow a little light in my head went off saying âINCOME tax in 1789! ⦠oh man, am I going to take a beating for that tomorrow â¦â So Iâm not quite as illiterate as we would all hope.
Perhaps I could clarify this a little better? What about the sixteenth amendment to the Constitution? (A side note: After writing this, I see RonB has already addressed this point.)
Article XVI.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
My research showed me that Ohio ratified that amendment on January 19, 1911. My research also taught me that the matters of constitutionality was settled in U.S. v. Thomas (7th Cir. 1986). The decision states that a Mr. Thomasâs challenges to the constitutionality of Amendment XVI based on spelling errors and differences in capitalization in copies distributed through the states for ratification were insufficient as the errors were known at the time of the ratification. Other lawsuits brought based on these same facts have apparently been deemed âfrivolous.â
If youâre going to argue that the income tax provision isnât in the original Constitution, I would like to remind you that that Constitution is considered a âliving documentâ open for amendment by Congress and the states. Currently, income tax is constitutional.
Originally posted by bbower1956:
Government funding of the arts does not produce artists. How can a grant create talent? |
You are correct, it doesnât create talent and artists. It fosters them.
Some production of arts sponsored by the NEA (from their website):
⢠Since 1990, 39 of the 58 recipients of National Book Awards, National Book Critics Circle Awards, and Pulitzer Prizes in fiction and poetry were awarded Arts Endowment Literature Fellowships, often 10 to 20 years earlier.
⢠Sponsoring the design competition for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the most visited tourist attraction in the nation's capital.
⢠Giving early and critical funding to:
o The Sundance Film Festival
o Steppenwolf Theatre Company
o Minnesota Public Radio's A Prairie Home Companion
o Spoleto Festival U.S.A.
o PBS's [I]Great Performances{/I] series
⢠Creating and funding the American Film Institute
Originally posted by bbower1956:
Why can't it be at the state level and fund raised at the state level? Why should Ohio pay for art in New York? |
Doesnât New York pays for arts in Ohio as well? Check out
The Ohio Arts Council
Edited to correct: grammar and Constitution date.
Message edited by author 2005-03-03 19:30:21. |
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03/03/2005 05:48:04 PM · #57 |
Cut. Check.
Paste. Check.
Fail to think. Check.
I don't check in on rants much, but it's always the same thing. Cut, paste, argue over what someone ELSE thought.
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03/03/2005 06:03:48 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Cut. Check.
Paste. Check.
Fail to think. Check.
I don't check in on rants much, but it's always the same thing. Cut, paste, argue over what someone ELSE thought. |
So why don't you tell us what YOU think?? And by the way, there are plenty of personal opinions being expressed here; go back and read the thread again.
Message edited by author 2005-03-03 18:05:06. |
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03/03/2005 09:03:52 PM · #59 |
I used to waste time expressing my opinions on a site I ran. It ALWAYS degenerated into the same arguments, over and over and over again and I don't know that anyone EVER changed ANYONE's mind. Life's too short.
(See, now according to tradition, this is where you lambaste me for having originally posted to the thread...see, predictable, right? :)
Anyways, just my 2c for rant for the day.
M
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03/04/2005 01:19:53 AM · #60 |
Your arrogance is unfounded. Factually disprove what I say or donât try and lecture. Required reading: The National Security Archive Do a search for "Operation Northwoods" for a little history into US foreign policy and state sponsored terrorism. That site and the Freedom of Information Act; and what it has yielded, should be a high school and college class on US government and what not to do.
I also recommend reading for an understanding of what created the industrial revolution and the most valued prize in all the world The Pulitzer Prize winning; "The Prize". This is another class thatâs missing from high school and college.
Originally posted by wfuller:
Quit being so self-impressed, kiddo. You've got a lot to learn about the world, especially terrorists. And pay attention to your so-called "facts" ... your posting is factually innacurate and intellectually lazy.
P.S. I hope your blind anger subsides enough to allow you to begin using your own intellect.
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Bush is not only an intellectual idiot, he surrounds himself with the most corrupt and partisan people possible, all having the same agenda.
Regardless of whether they planned or allowed 9/11 to happen, they are sure as hell glad it did. It gave a lame duck president a place in history and a reason to begin the war plans of controlling the #1 energy reserves in the world and made the American sheeple jump to back them.
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Message edited by author 2005-03-04 01:26:50. |
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03/04/2005 01:21:32 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Cut. Check.
Paste. Check.
Fail to think. Check.
I don't check in on rants much, but it's always the same thing. Cut, paste, argue over what someone ELSE thought. |
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-Socrates
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03/04/2005 05:02:07 AM · #62 |
I started out reading this thread on the first page. I stopped reading this thread on the next to the last post on the first page. The only thing that matters to me in all of this is not who is elected for president as they have already been elected and the job is in process. but for my husband and I have a friend that came home for a break from war. He has to go back to a place where suicide bombing happens everyday. Retalliation against the bombers affect innocent children like the ones I seen in a photo that our friend took. These kids were dressed like all normal children today. They were also holding their thumbs up... I say lets teach those innocent children peace and how to make a piece sign with theier fingers because they are apart of our future. In order to overcome it all we must have peace. Make your peace marks instead of pointing fingers, debating, or arguing who is wrong, and wasting precious time that you may not have tomorrow. There may not be a tomorrow. Do you want to die and be remembered for the hate, the argumentive side of your personality, or not remembered at all?
Do you want to be remembered for the act of kindness and the good that you bring to the world through your eyes and photography. There are things that are better left alone rather then trying to stir it up. Can you not just help teach or model PEACE. ... Peace is a lot better then hate. Hate stems from greed in managing power.
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03/04/2005 07:02:58 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
-Socrates |
Fine, you want to play this game?
"An error made on your own is safer than ten truths accepted on faith, because the first leaves you the means to correct it, but the second destroys your capacity to distinguish truth from error."
- John Galt, Atlas Shrugged
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03/04/2005 08:22:31 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
I heard this morning that Greenspan supports the idea of a national sales tax over the current income tax. I haven't read any details yet, but this could be an interesting return to our "roots". |
Interesting. I hadnât read that.
Originally posted by ScottK:
I can't speak for what Brad meant, but hears a basic synopsis of Social Security: You give us a percentage of every dollar you earn in wages from the time you're born until you're "retirement age" (whatever we decide to define that as). Over the years, we'll decide what we want to do with that money. Then, if you make it to retirement age, we'll pay you a little stipend (again, whatever we define as feasible) to support you for the rest of your life. And hopefully, when that time comes, there'll be some other people paying into the scheme so that we can actually pay you. |
Yes. Iâm familiar with the pay-as-you-go plan for Social Security. Unfortunately, it depends too much on an increasing young population with a decreasing elderly population, while having to absorb increases of benefits passed by politicians looking for votes during economic highs and an understandable political unwillingness to decrease those benefits during economic lows.
Originally posted by ScottK:
Would that be a racial slur...???? What about the contention? The defense of the nation is (the?) one clear constitutionally mandated part of our budget. |
Well, I guess itâs about as racist as my Cornish/Scandinavian, middle-class, several-generation, Midwestern-American heritage will allow. If youâre not familiar with the expression, itâs a mildly humorous retort to a person whoâs made a minor concession as if it were a major one. On the other hand, from one Caucasian to another, if you feel the need to be offended on behalf of the white, English-speaking peoples of the world, Iâll have to live in hope you will behave with magnanimity.
Edited for my lousy, stupid-head grammar.
Message edited by author 2005-03-04 08:45:21. |
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03/04/2005 08:57:27 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Factually disprove what I say or donât try and lecture. |
I have. But you don't seem to want to hear it. To wit:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Ron I do not like directly answer you questions...
I do not wish you to respond to what Iâve said above. |
You refuse to get specific when asked to. Instead you cop out by saying stuff like:
"You know exactly why Iâm against PNAC"
even though you have NEVER ONCE stated a specific reason why you are against them except for invented, wild accusations that you cannot back up - accusations like
"those people want to take over the world in the name of American hegemony"
Please try to regain some credibility for yourself by showing where that accusation has even the glimmer of a foundation in fact.
Message edited by author 2005-03-04 10:16:28. |
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03/04/2005 09:04:40 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Your arrogance is unfounded. Factually disprove what I say or donât try and lecture. Required reading: The National Security Archive Do a search for "Operation Northwoods" for a little history into US foreign policy and state sponsored terrorism. That site and the Freedom of Information Act; and what it has yielded, should be a high school and college class on US government and what not to do.
I also recommend reading for an understanding of what created the industrial revolution and the most valued prize in all the world The Pulitzer Prize winning; "The Prize". This is another class thatâs missing from high school and college.
Originally posted by wfuller:
Quit being so self-impressed, kiddo. You've got a lot to learn about the world, especially terrorists. And pay attention to your so-called "facts" ... your posting is factually innacurate and intellectually lazy.
P.S. I hope your blind anger subsides enough to allow you to begin using your own intellect.
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Bush is not only an intellectual idiot, he surrounds himself with the most corrupt and partisan people possible, all having the same agenda.
Regardless of whether they planned or allowed 9/11 to happen, they are sure as hell glad it did. It gave a lame duck president a place in history and a reason to begin the war plans of controlling the #1 energy reserves in the world and made the American sheeple jump to back them.
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I actually have a job so I am not going to read your link. Does it talk about Ruby Ridge and Waco? That was state sponsered. |
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03/05/2005 07:52:10 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Originally posted by deapee:
I agree with Flash -- you failed in the same sense that kerry failed in his run for presidency. He was really good at pointing out current faults, but did nothing to explain of how he intended to fix these faults...like they say, in hindsight, we're all 20/20. |
Here's a brief outline of John Kerry's anti-terrorism agenda:
* Double the U.S. Army's special forces capacity and speed implementation of new anti-terror technologies.
* Create a national intelligence director's post that included full control over intelligence funding and double the number of overseas clandestine officers.
* "Make Afghanistan a priority again, because it's still the front line of the war on terror."
* Improve global security of chemical and nuclear weapons, particularly those in the former Soviet Union. He promised to secure all weapons there within four years.
* Seek a "verifiable" global ban on the production of materials needed to make nuclear weapons and talk directly to North Korea about its nuclear weapons program. "We have to get serious about diplomacy with North Korea, now," he said.
* "Wage a war on terrorist finances," including freezing assets of anyone or any organization "who is financing terrorism."
* Hold Saudi Arabia "accountable" for terrorist group development there, and work to make the U.S. independent of Mideast oil.
* Improve security in U.S. ports.
* Deny sanctuary and recuiting opportunities for terrorists.
* Strengthen and in some cases rebuild alliances with other countries. "If ever the United States of America needed to reach out instead of alienating countries, it is now," he said. Kerry said such action was "not a sign of weakness â it is a sign of strength, and it will make us stronger." |
bdobe,
Nothing personal, but these statements are just words. "Double, create, make, improve, seek, deny...." what action is going to allow these words to become reality. Somebody actually has to "DO" something, and part of that something is killing people. What are the increased special forces going to do? Kill people. What are the overseas agents going to do? Collect intelligence so that people can be killed, incarcerated, detained, "convinced to talk".
Some of those who criticize this war activity use "death" as the wrong. If you are bent on killing me, and I ask you nicely not to, then pass a law that says you can't, then ask you again, at some point my options are limited. There is a radical movement afoot that was coming and is coming, no matter how you "ask" them. Our options are limited.
This thread began as a critique of the current terror war efforts. It had many points that I could agree with. It just did not offer an alternative "action".
The Italian journalist that was captive, then released, then shot by US troops, is more fodder for the "against" movement. But why did the vehicle not slow down or stop at the checkpoint? To me that is just insane. And they are blaming the troops for firing. They used hand and arm signals, fired into the air, then finally as a last resort fired at the engine. That is a justified escalation in a war zone. I just shake my head. What possibly could the journalists car have been thinking? Sad event, but take some responsibility for your own actions.
For me to support activities other than the current course, then an action must accompany the words. If you are going to give an agency control over their budget, who is going to pay for it? My higher taxes? If you are going to double the number of agents, who is going to pay for it? My higher taxes? If you are going to secure all weapons in the Soviet Union, how are you going to pay for it? My higher taxes? Instead tell me which programs that are ineffective that you would cut so that the money being wasted on them can be diverted to your new efforts. I might support that. Tell me how you would tax all people working in this country that are not citizens. Tell me how you are going to tax foriegn corporations that do business here, then take the profits back to their country of origin. Those are the kinds of money raising ideas that I could support, to pay for the actions to support the words of the alternatives.
Don't just criticize. Give me some actions.
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