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02/25/2005 07:01:44 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
It was said clearly "I selected then inverted..." Any form of selection is not allowed in basic editing. And I was under the impression that solid borders were mandatory, not suggested. I've never seen any like this allowed before. :o) |
True, but I'm sure people use selections all the time to make borders. It does say 'suggested' in the rules. I personally like simple b&w borders, but different people like different things and in my reading I don't see where patterns are forbidden.
Ah well. :-)
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02/25/2005 07:06:23 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Originally posted by ButterflySis:
In my interpretation of the rules on borders I find your border to be legal. It says "solid" b&w borders are suggested, not mandatory. Your border is certainly not clipart as you didn't insert anything into your image. You used fill....people use fill for color. No where in the rule do I see 'patterns' are not allowed...all I see is what a 'suggested' border is. |
It was said clearly "I selected then inverted..." Any form of selection is not allowed in basic editing. And I was under the impression that solid borders were mandatory, not suggested. I've never seen any like this allowed before. :o) |
right i used the slection tool TO MAKE A BOARDER that is allowed as 1 of the was to make 1.......if u couldn't do that lots of images would be dqed by now as many ppl. here use that method...
BUT NOW U SEE MY POINT ABOUT MAJOR UNCLARITY IN THE RULES
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02/25/2005 07:06:34 PM · #28 |
| A "pattern" is created artwork or elements, which is not permitted in the rules. Especially in a Basic Rules challenge, the border should be used to enhance or set off the image from the gray background, not to become a "major" element or component of the piece itself. |
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02/25/2005 07:07:42 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by KDO:
IMO the rules are vague, hazy, and indistinct. Apparently, the only way to truly find out what they mean is to be DQed a time or two. |
If you aren't sure you can always ask to have it review ahead of time. It states that as a suggestion clearly in the rules.
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02/25/2005 07:11:07 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Yes, and this time it didn't work. But your arguement works both ways. The rules don't mention you *can't* use patterns, but they don't say you can either.. and they *DO* suggest sticking to something simple.. so in my mind, if they are suggesting that, and you decide to go with something else.. it should immediately raise flags that say.. "wait! wait! I should maybe clear this first."
Just my opinion.. but if I go against suggestions put in the rules, I'm going to make damn sure that I clear it first. |
This deserves repeating!!!
I think that people are trying to add to much to their photos and they end up walking a fine line that is questionable. If you wanna do something to your photo that causes you to feel like you need to check the rules..Then get it validated and be safe. |
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02/25/2005 07:12:00 PM · #31 |
imo filling with patterns crosses the line from photo touchup to photomanipulation. Plus you broke another rule by adding a 'major' element to your photo that was not originally there... plus you broke another rule by using the selection tool to invert part of your image, this is called selective editing and is illegal in basic editing.
but back to the border issue... i agree that sc should do some slight clarification of the rules w/ regards to borders
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02/25/2005 07:14:12 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
A "pattern" is created artwork or elements, which is not permitted in the rules. Especially in a Basic Rules challenge, the border should be used to enhance or set off the image from the gray background, not to become a "major" element or component of the piece itself. |
ok then all i ask is could this be printed in the rules so all might know in the future cause as it is not i did not see my 3pixel wide boarder as being art or being a major element of the image
Message edited by author 2005-02-25 19:15:58.
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02/25/2005 07:17:41 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by nico_blue:
... but back to the border issue... i agree that sc should do some slight clarification of the rules w/ regards to borders |
An "illegal" border is much like obscenity -- you can't define it but you know it when you see it.
Some people here believe that all borders are obscenities, but we haven't let them gain control yet. |
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02/25/2005 07:20:02 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
An "illegal" border is much like obscenity -- you can't define it but you know it when you see it.
Some people here believe that all borders are obscenities, but we haven't let them gain control yet. |
Couldn't you just say a 5px border filled with choice of solid color? That way it's a simple border, everyone is consistent, and it excludes patterns and any other options?
Edit: With option of a single pixel, solid colored, inner border?
Message edited by author 2005-02-25 19:20:40.
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02/25/2005 07:21:09 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by fotodude:
Originally posted by aerogurl:
Originally posted by ButterflySis:
In my interpretation of the rules on borders I find your border to be legal. It says "solid" b&w borders are suggested, not mandatory. Your border is certainly not clipart as you didn't insert anything into your image. You used fill....people use fill for color. No where in the rule do I see 'patterns' are not allowed...all I see is what a 'suggested' border is. |
It was said clearly "I selected then inverted..." Any form of selection is not allowed in basic editing. And I was under the impression that solid borders were mandatory, not suggested. I've never seen any like this allowed before. :o) |
right i used the slection tool TO MAKE A BOARDER that is allowed as 1 of the was to make 1.......if u couldn't do that lots of images would be dqed by now as many ppl. here use that method...
BUT NOW U SEE MY POINT ABOUT MAJOR UNCLARITY IN THE RULES |
The end does not justify the means. There are quite a few ways of making borders that dont violate basic editing rules. For reference please use image> canvas size from now on. Do not assume other people broke the rules to achieve borders in basic editing. Please post a sample image of a photo you feel used a selection tool to add a border and I will personally show you how to do it without the selection tool.
To quote the rules -
"Additionally, the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping."
So the selection tool is only legal for cropping and not for creating borders.
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02/25/2005 07:23:30 PM · #36 |
From the basic rules:
the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping.
Fotodude MADE A SELECTION.
I don't see where there's any room for debate. IMO any border, patterned or not, that uses a selection is not legal in basic editing. It's easy to make simple borders by increasing the canvas size. This is clearly (IMO) what the rule is trying to explain. When they "suggest" simple borders, they are urging you not to make borders by exapnding the canvas 3-4 times with different BG colors, as these do not go over well with voters. This is why it's a "suggestion".
Robt.
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02/25/2005 07:24:43 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by nico_blue:
The end does not justify the means. There are quite a few ways of making borders that dont violate basic editing rules. For reference please use image> canvas size from now on. Do not assume other people broke the rules to achieve borders in basic editing. Please post a sample image of a photo you feel used a selection tool to add a border and I will personally show you how to do it without the selection tool.
To quote the rules -
"Additionally, the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping."
So the selection tool is only legal for cropping and not for creating borders. |
I personally use canvas size for my borders. I can't imagine 100% of the people here know how to do that and since not every image is verified it's hard to say whether an image used a selection tool or not. The results are 99% the same.
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02/25/2005 07:26:02 PM · #38 |
ok lastly i bring back this image a "major element" i would think so......
now don't get me wrong i lov this image but that is cause a good BD can make a Great image better.....my image is not compairable with this 1 but the boarder issue IS.
see if mine is a major elemant then.....?......also i understand the clip art thing but it didn't state that in the rules so i was AGAIN left to my own interpretation of that rule all i want is for there to be a more clearly defined rule of what is allowed and what isn't ans maybe in the mean time till this rule is written there could be a period of no BD image challenges....just a thought.
_brando_
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02/25/2005 07:26:18 PM · #39 |
I've only been a member here for a few weeks, and I enjoy reading the message threads, especially the controversial subjects. However, I am beginning to understand some people's frustrations with circular discussions and repeat discussions. Every week we have someone crying foul about a DQ, which is helpful, because it points out to all of us what can cause a possible DQ. And after every challenge theres controversy over the structure of the voting system. While these topics are great sources for discussion and/or debate, it seems each message thread tends to re-invent the wheel.
I'm glad we're getting to discuss this DQ, because we all may learn something, or reinforce what we already knew. However, I find it counter-productive to bash the perceived vagueness/ambiguity of the rules, when the site council has made it 100% clear that they are there for any questions anyone may have regarding the validity of their entries.
After participating in the infamous "troll voting" thread, I took a step back and asked myself, "will hunting down these supposed trolls make me a better photographer?". My answer was "no." I was somewhat relieved that I didn't need to worry about the "trolls" anymore, since the voting system could never be perfect (look at the voting system in place in the United States, we've had more than a few minor issues, lol).
The rules are what they are, and from time to time will need to be updated (as far as I can tell they were recently updated for some reason). If we unknowingly break the rules on an occasion or two, we've learned something from our mistakes (as will others if we share our mistakes publicly).
I guess I've said enough (probably too much, in some peoples minds, lol), but just keep the intent of the site and the community here at DPC in your thoughts when start to become angry at the rules, the trolls, the lens or whatever else is ticking you off at any given moment. But most of all, this is supposed to be fun, remember? ;)
Deb
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02/25/2005 07:28:40 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
From the basic rules:
the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping.
Fotodude MADE A SELECTION.
I don't see where there's any room for debate. IMO any border, patterned or not, that uses a selection is not legal in basic editing. It's easy to make simple borders by increasing the canvas size. This is clearly (IMO) what the rule is trying to explain. When they "suggest" simple borders, they are urging you not to make borders by exapnding the canvas 3-4 times with different BG colors, as these do not go over well with voters. This is why it's a "suggestion".
Robt. |
then we better go back and check past winners since lost of there boarders where made by way of slection tool
the SC need to lay down clear, and clearly clear rules
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02/25/2005 07:31:52 PM · #41 |
Brando,
Brad's picture was ruled legal under advanced editing rules. Yours was DQ'd under basic editing rules. That's a major difference. Please be specific as to which images you have found scoring high in basic editing that you feel were illegally created...
Robt.
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02/25/2005 07:33:27 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
It was said clearly "I selected then inverted..." Any form of selection is not allowed in basic editing. And I was under the impression that solid borders were mandatory, not suggested. I've never seen any like this allowed before. :o) |
The spot-editing and borders sections of the rules are two distinct sections. This is why the artwork and text prohibitions appear specifically in the border rule, in addition to the rules in general. Since the use of a selection tool (Marquee) is required to make certain types of borders, it is allowed only for that purpose.
The grounds for the diqsqualification was the "clip art or other artwork" clause which appears within the border rule itself. (EDITED TO ADD:)The use of a selection tool in the creation of the border played no part in our decision.
-Terry
Message edited by author 2005-02-25 19:37:13.
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02/25/2005 07:34:44 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by fotodude:
Originally posted by bear_music:
From the basic rules:
the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping.
Fotodude MADE A SELECTION.
I don't see where there's any room for debate. IMO any border, patterned or not, that uses a selection is not legal in basic editing. It's easy to make simple borders by increasing the canvas size. This is clearly (IMO) what the rule is trying to explain. When they "suggest" simple borders, they are urging you not to make borders by exapnding the canvas 3-4 times with different BG colors, as these do not go over well with voters. This is why it's a "suggestion".
Robt. |
then we better go back and check past winners since lost of there boarders where made by way of slection tool
the SC need to lay down clear, and clearly clear rules |
Please stop accusing people needlessly, all top three placers need to submit their original unedited shots to SC. Like I said earlier (pls read that post if you missed it) selection is only legal to crop an image in basic. To make borders in basic editing rules go to image > canvas size.
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02/25/2005 07:36:05 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by capgal:
I've only been a member here for a few weeks, and I enjoy reading the message threads, especially the controversial subjects. However, I am beginning to understand some people's frustrations with circular discussions and repeat discussions. Every week we have someone crying foul about a DQ, which is helpful, because it points out to all of us what can cause a possible DQ. And after every challenge theres controversy over the structure of the voting system. While these topics are great sources for discussion and/or debate, it seems each message thread tends to re-invent the wheel.
I'm glad we're getting to discuss this DQ, because we all may learn something, or reinforce what we already knew. However, I find it counter-productive to bash the perceived vagueness/ambiguity of the rules, when the site council has made it 100% clear that they are there for any questions anyone may have regarding the validity of their entries.
After participating in the infamous "troll voting" thread, I took a step back and asked myself, "will hunting down these supposed trolls make me a better photographer?". My answer was "no." I was somewhat relieved that I didn't need to worry about the "trolls" anymore, since the voting system could never be perfect (look at the voting system in place in the United States, we've had more than a few minor issues, lol).
The rules are what they are, and from time to time will need to be updated (as far as I can tell they were recently updated for some reason). If we unknowingly break the rules on an occasion or two, we've learned something from our mistakes (as will others if we share our mistakes publicly).
I guess I've said enough (probably too much, in some peoples minds, lol), but just keep the intent of the site and the community here at DPC in your thoughts when start to become angry at the rules, the trolls, the lens or whatever else is ticking you off at any given moment. But most of all, this is supposed to be fun, remember? ;)
Deb |
there are 14 members to the SC now what happened if all 33869 of us wanted to submitt to a challenge and though there was a possibulity of getting DQed so we submitted a shot to them????????
u see what i'm getting at it is unlikly but WHAT IF? not all of us can go to them all the time thats why there are rules now with that said can they be made clearer?
for the dumb boffons of the world like me
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02/25/2005 07:42:18 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by capgal:
I've only been a member here for a few weeks, and I enjoy reading the message threads, especially the controversial subjects. However, I am beginning to understand some people's frustrations with circular discussions and repeat discussions. Every week we have someone crying foul about a DQ, which is helpful, because it points out to all of us what can cause a possible DQ. And after every challenge theres controversy over the structure of the voting system. While these topics are great sources for discussion and/or debate, it seems each message thread tends to re-invent the wheel.
I'm glad we're getting to discuss this DQ, because we all may learn something, or reinforce what we already knew. However, I find it counter-productive to bash the perceived vagueness/ambiguity of the rules, when the site council has made it 100% clear that they are there for any questions anyone may have regarding the validity of their entries.
After participating in the infamous "troll voting" thread, I took a step back and asked myself, "will hunting down these supposed trolls make me a better photographer?". My answer was "no." I was somewhat relieved that I didn't need to worry about the "trolls" anymore, since the voting system could never be perfect (look at the voting system in place in the United States, we've had more than a few minor issues, lol).
The rules are what they are, and from time to time will need to be updated (as far as I can tell they were recently updated for some reason). If we unknowingly break the rules on an occasion or two, we've learned something from our mistakes (as will others if we share our mistakes publicly).
I guess I've said enough (probably too much, in some peoples minds, lol), but just keep the intent of the site and the community here at DPC in your thoughts when start to become angry at the rules, the trolls, the lens or whatever else is ticking you off at any given moment. But most of all, this is supposed to be fun, remember? ;)
Deb |
Just wanted to say "well said" to you. I went through much the same thought process you did, and have felt much saner for it since. Just enjoy and learn!
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02/25/2005 07:46:44 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by fotodude:
there are 14 members to the SC now what happened if all 33869 of us wanted to submitt to a challenge and though there was a possibulity of getting DQed so we submitted a shot to them????????
u see what i'm getting at it is unlikly but WHAT IF? not all of us can go to them all the time thats why there are rules now with that said can they be made clearer?
for the dumb boffons of the world like me |
There may be 33869 members here at DPC, but as you can see most challenges have anywhere from 200-500 submissions at most. I'm sure if the site council started to recieve enough requests that the work load was unbearable or unfeasable, they would simply add more members to the site council. (The same way that if everyone in your town decided to go to McDonald's every day for lunch, they'd have to employ more people to keep up with the workflow)
I do understand your frustration with the rules, and for all we know the site council may be re-assessing the wording of some of the points. On the other hand, this is the second temper-tantrum I've seen in the course of 2 weeks over a DQ'd entry.
If this were an advanced-editing challenge, I would understand your problem more. However, as many people have already stated, the selection tool is not allowed in basic-editing. Therefore, regardless of whether your border was pink, purple, brown, tie-dyed with purple roses or whatever else, it would still be illegal (because of the way the border was created).
Deb
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02/25/2005 07:47:28 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by KDO:
IMO the rules are vague, hazy, and indistinct. Apparently, the only way to truly find out what they mean is to be DQed a time or two. |
In this case might that be "purple hazy"? |
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02/25/2005 07:48:33 PM · #48 |
Not to let facts get in the way, but please see my post from 7:33:27 PM in this thread regarding selection tools and borders.
-Terry
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02/25/2005 07:51:36 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by fotodude:
it is NOT clip art or another image it is a pattern and the rules say nothing about that so...... |
You may not think it is clip art, but did you think it was photography?
Originally posted by KDO:
IMO the rules are vague, hazy, and indistinct. Apparently, the only way to truly find out what they mean is to be DQed a time or two. |
I don't think the rules are that vague. They are not hard to follow if you are trying to follow them as opposed to trying to test them. If you are exploring the limits you should expect to be questioned frequently, and DQ'ed occasionally.
Originally posted by fotodude:
... i did what i though was the most hendrix multi colored...... |
It's a digital photography challenge, not a be-the-most-like-hendrix challenge. And Jimi ain't voting in it.
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02/25/2005 07:52:26 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Not to let facts get in the way, but please see my post from 7:33:27 PM in this thread regarding selection tools and borders.
-Terry |
So it is legal to use the selection tool, to make a solid border in basic-editing? I assumed it was not after reading the rules, and thought there must be some other way to do so.
Deb |
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