Would FM's Velvia Vision break the rules?

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/20/2005 05:55:34 PM · #1

I recently purchased the amazing Velvia Vision from FredMiranda.com.

I am wondering whether the use of this software/photoshop plugin would be in breach of the Basic Rules when it comes to post processing.

I am pretty sure the software only affects the image as a whole, with adjustments made to different channels, levels and curves, and not to any singular part of the image.

From the rules:
Filters: The use of filters (or non-Photoshop equivalent) is strictly limited. Any filter or stand-alone utility designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc, are permitted. These include but are not limited to the Sharpen, Unsharp Mask, and Dust & Scratches filters, and standalone image cleanup utilities such as NeatImage. However, no effects filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur, which are allowed. Any filter permitted by this rule must be applied uniformly to the entire image. Selective application of any filter is prohibited.
Layers: Only Adjustment Layers (or the non-Photoshop equivalent) may be used. An Adjustment Layer is one that does not contain any pixel data, but rather is a special, non-image layer that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments to an image without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode. All other types of layers (including those that contain pixel data or masks) and all other blending methods (modes) are prohibited. Changing the opacity of an Adjustment Layer is permitted.

Any clarification on this would be helpful.

nico_blue

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/20/2005 06:16:00 PM · #2

im not sc but i would think its not allowed in basic editing from the part that reads "However, no effects filters may be applied to your image with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur"

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

02/20/2005 06:25:23 PM · #3

I vehemently disagree with the position nico takes (nothing personal, nico).

FM's Velvia Vision and Opanda's Digital Film 1.65 are completely legal IMO; they do nothing that cannot be done with skilled tweaking of curves and selective color and hue/saturation. They are nothing more than actions that automate a tedious process. They do not use selections at all, the tweaking is applied across the entire image. They are not "filters", they don't manipulate any portion of the image. They are dedicated color-mixers that have the specific goal of turning digital output into simulations of Fuji's Velvia film output, and this is entirely a color saturation and contrast issue.

Robt.

Message edited by author 2005-02-20 18:26:05.

Konador

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

02/20/2005 06:27:51 PM · #4

If you could post the list of actions the script follows, that will enable those of us unfamiliar with the script to make a judgement without purchasing it.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/20/2005 06:31:20 PM · #5

Originally posted by Konador:

If you could post the list of actions the script follows, that will enable those of us unfamiliar with the script to make a judgement without purchasing it.

Just leave out specific settings so we don't violate the copyright or user license.

bod

02/20/2005 06:47:09 PM · #6

The original Fred Miranda Digital Velvia actions simply implemented a set of channel mixer settings ...
In the red channel, boost red & reduce the other colours.
In the blue channel, boost blue & reduce the other colours.
In the green channel, boost green & reduce the other colours.

As far as I can tell, Velvia Vision makes what was several different actions into a nice slider control.

There's a few new settings in there too like 'smart contrast', which seems to relate to levels, 'warm colours' which is obvious, and 'add dynamic range'.

aznym

Fujifilm X-T3

Fujifilm XF 23mm f/2 R WR

02/20/2005 06:49:20 PM · #7

I have seen a few Velvia actions and if I remember correctly most of them change the layer mode to color (using channel mixer) to create the effect. If that's the case with what's mentioned in the thread, it would be illegal under Basic Editing.

Message edited by author 2005-02-20 18:50:56.

bod

02/20/2005 06:52:02 PM · #8

Originally posted by xion:

Velvia Vision leaves the new layer in normal mode so it's okay in that respect at least.

aznym

Fujifilm X-T3

Fujifilm XF 23mm f/2 R WR

02/20/2005 06:53:32 PM · #9

Originally posted by bod:

Originally posted by xion:
I have seen a few Velvia actions and if I remember correctly most of them change the layer mode to color (using channel mixer) to create the effect. If that's the case with what's mentioned in the thread, it would be illegal under Basic Editing.

Velvia Vision leaves the new layer in normal mode so it's okay in that respect at least.

In that case, agreed.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/20/2005 11:15:39 PM · #10

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Konador:
If you could post the list of actions the script follows, that will enable those of us unfamiliar with the script to make a judgement without purchasing it.

Just leave out specific settings so we don't violate the copyright or user license.

I am unable (read: don't know how) to get the list of actions, it simply adds everything into one step on the history palette. (PS7)

I appreciate everyone's opinions so far, but there seems to almost be a split down the middle. Hopefully someone can give me a definative answer.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

02/20/2005 11:25:25 PM · #11

Originally posted by seriocomic:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Konador:
If you could post the list of actions the script follows, that will enable those of us unfamiliar with the script to make a judgement without purchasing it.

Just leave out specific settings so we don't violate the copyright or user license.

I am unable (read: don't know how) to get the list of actions, it simply adds everything into one step on the history palette. (PS7)

I appreciate everyone's opinions so far, but there seems to almost be a split down the middle. Hopefully someone can give me a definative answer.

Does it seem to do anything besides shift colors around to make it look it's shot with Velvia film?

If that's all it does, and doesn't do and sharpening or other image enhancement, it seems as though it should be OK, especially if any layers created as a part of the process remain in "Normal" mode.

I can't promise anything for the whole SC, because we have to evaluate each image individually, but it sounds OK to me.

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

02/20/2005 11:36:52 PM · #12

Originally posted by GeneralE:

As far as I can tell, it only does color and contrast (possibly some levels and curves as well) applied to the whole image.

Would it be helpfull if I uploaded some examples?

awpollard

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/20/2005 11:38:44 PM · #13

I would tell you what Opanda DigitalFilm 1.65 does but the help file is in Chinese...

From the web this is the overview:

"Digital Film" is professional software for emulating the photography reversal film. It is the publication meets the requirement in photography, printing and handling digital image.

It can make the color effect of digital photo realistically simulate that of photographic reversal film such as Fujifilm RVP and Kodak T-Max100. It can make the image clear and vivid, and bring the image strong and perfectly clear colors, rich layers and details, as well as the reduction of noise points and color spots...

Basically it takes a jpg and adjusts staturation, contrast et el...

Andy

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/20/2005 11:49:26 PM · #14

Originally posted by seriocomic:

As far as I can tell, it only does color and contrast (possibly some levels and curves as well) applied to the whole image.

Would it be helpfull if I uploaded some examples?

Wouldn't really help at this point, unless some other SC members see this and need it. I don't think there's any way to give you a definite answer beforehand. But I don't think anyone would consider it "cheating" if the SC later decided the action isn't legal; you certainly have good reason to believe it's legal at this point.

02/20/2005 11:52:03 PM · #15

Thanks

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6D ED VR

02/21/2005 12:29:58 AM · #16

I can't speak for the Fred Miranda version from experience, but I have Opanda and it's a standalone application. It doesn't work through PS. Therefore I'm quite certain it doesn't use any sophisticated layer blending options. I am able to replicate the Velvia effect (and often have) by "hand" in PS without resorting to anything other than normal mode in the layers. I just got Opanda because it was inexpensive and it saved me a lot of hand-work. The result is quite close to what I try to get when I previsualize a shot; a replication of the "contrastier", more-saturated look of film.

Even after I have run Opanda, I take it channel mixer in PS and fine-tune it most of the time; it just gives me a good starting point. To be frank, if i didn't say I had used it (and I never happen to have in a challenge entry yet), nobody would be able to tell I had. So it ought to be legal, LOL.

Robt.

BADDBOYY21

Nikon D300

02/21/2005 01:06:28 AM · #17

I use the velvia action...I'm not at home at the moment, but I will post the steps in the action when I get home. Thats if someone doesnt do it before then.

Jason

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

02/21/2005 01:20:51 AM · #18

I would interpert the rules that using the action is illegal, but walking through the steps yourself manually would be ok as long it stays in the guidelines of the challenge.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

02/21/2005 01:47:10 AM · #19

Jason, how do you figure that? PS allows you to make an action out of any series of steps you make in editing. There's nothing illegal per se about an action, it's just an automation of some processing steps. It would only be illegal if one of the steps was illegal. For example, I have an action for resizing, one for sepia conversion, and another for 2-step USM application.

But if I made an action that included, say, the creation of a layer with "dissolve" mode instead of "normal" mode, this would be illegal in basic editing.

The Opanda Velvia emulator is nothing but a color saturator combined with a contrast enhancer. Both are legal actions.

Robt.

Jason

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

02/21/2005 01:49:12 AM · #20

True I really didn't think about those that create their own actions. Just more concerened about the people clicking an action without knowing exactly what is happening in the background.

02/21/2005 01:55:41 AM · #21

You can examine any PS action by expanding it and see what steps are involved. If you use an action in a DPC challenge, it's incumbent upon you to examine the action and ascertain its legality. The documentation for Opanda, which is standalone, is in Chinese so I can't examine it, but I see no evidence that it is illegal, and I cannot imagine that it is.

For it to be illegal, it would have to make "selections", and it's not even IN photoshop. The program's WAY too cheap for me to think that they actually created the coding necessary to select and mask areas, especially inasmuch as I can replicate it quite precisely on my own without doing so. If anything, the evidence is that they DON'T mask, because the tool has a tendency to create blown-out higlights and blocked shadows on images that are already semi-saturated.

I use it because I shoot in a low-contrast, low-saturation mode, which helps ensure I don't have extremes to deal with, and then post-process to get my snap. When you get your snap in the camera, you can't back away from it very well. Don't forget that cameras themselves, unless they are shooting RAW, are adjustable to accomplish some degree of these things also.

Robt.

Message edited by author 2005-02-21 01:56:57.

Azrifel

Fujifilm X100VI

02/21/2005 02:53:57 AM · #22

Originally posted by BADDBOYY21:

I use the velvia action...I'm not at home at the moment, but I will post the steps in the action when I get home. Thats if someone doesnt do it before then.

The only thing the 'action' does is adjust the channel mix and adjust the curves.