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02/08/2005 05:57:17 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
I also don't think people should be offended but I guess I can see how the thieves and perverts might have been offended. ;) |
Hey! I resemble that remark!
I'm going to throw my hat into the ring by saying that I support Firefox because of its support for Internet standards. From a Web development point of view, IE is a nightmare. MS interprets the W3 recommendations in whatever way they see fit, and to hell with the user and the developer. Consequently, web developers who want to write compliant code have to incorporate workarounds because IE is the neighborhood bully. It's the corporate equivalent of somebody on the highway cutting you off, then flipping you the bird for getting upset. |
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02/08/2005 06:14:34 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by aronya1:
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
I also don't think people should be offended but I guess I can see how the thieves and perverts might have been offended. ;) |
Hey! I resemble that remark!
I'm going to throw my hat into the ring by saying that I support Firefox because of its support for Internet standards. From a Web development point of view, IE is a nightmare. MS interprets the W3 recommendations in whatever way they see fit, and to hell with the user and the developer. Consequently, web developers who want to write compliant code have to incorporate workarounds because IE is the neighborhood bully. It's the corporate equivalent of somebody on the highway cutting you off, then flipping you the bird for getting upset. |
Here, here! Try integrating even half of the newest CSS2 features into your website and IE will just act like you did nothing at all. For example, the lack of consistent IE support for attribute selectors kills me! |
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02/08/2005 06:26:35 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by aronya1:
I'm going to throw my hat into the ring by saying that I support Firefox because of its support for Internet standards. From a Web development point of view, IE is a nightmare. MS interprets the W3 recommendations in whatever way they see fit, and to hell with the user and the developer. Consequently, web developers who want to write compliant code have to incorporate workarounds because IE is the neighborhood bully. It's the corporate equivalent of somebody on the highway cutting you off, then flipping you the bird for getting upset. |
You're right, it's a pain in the butt to make things work properly in IE while still following standards. I am continually forced to keep arcane and nonstandard code just to compensate. |
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02/08/2005 06:58:46 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by bledford:
Here, here! Try integrating even half of the newest CSS2 features into your website and IE will just act like you did nothing at all. For example, the lack of consistent IE support for attribute selectors kills me! |
Dem bones, dem dry bones...
//dean.edwards.name/IE7/ |
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02/08/2005 08:37:51 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by sailracer_98:
The only downside I have found is that a few websites/plug-ins don't work well with Firefox. |
More than just a few! I have had several problems with Firefox when clicking on links posted in these forums. Either it demands I download a plugin or sometimes just hangs and never finishes loading, and once the damn browser crashed. I am becoming less and less enchanted with Firefox vs. IE. |
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02/09/2005 06:52:59 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by sailracer_98:
I don't get any spyware on my computer running Firefox. With IE I have to run Spybot Search and Destroy about once a day to remove all the spyware that makes it onto my computer. That is the biggest advantage of Firefox to me. ... |
It's not the shoes your wearing that get you mugged -- it's the places you walk to in them; monitored by your degree of vigilance.
David
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02/09/2005 07:05:33 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
It's not the shoes your wearing that get you mugged |
Yeah because nobody ever got mugged for their Nikes, right?
//www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/years/1987/fashion3.shtml
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02/09/2005 01:02:48 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Yup, and I wasn't talking about Apache at all. Compare and contrast with sendmail if you feel like it. Anyway - the majority of browser vunerability is caused by the nature of the product - a browser isn't a server. There is a user sitting clicking things, being spoofed, loading things that aren't what they say they are and so on. |
You are right in saying that a web browser is not a web server. I was merely pointing out that the case has been that Microsoft not only leads the way in 'root-level' browser and OS exploitable bugs, but also happens to own the market in other areas of remote 'root-level' exploitable bugs as well, such as Web Servers and Database Servers. (Slammer worm anyone?)
As for Sendmail, that venerable application has been on the way out for a number of years. Most all of the UNIX admins in my circle have stopped using Sendmail altogether and have moved to newer and in many ways better designed mail servers.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Yes there are other vunerabilities, things that shouldn't happen and so on, but they exist in all browsers (witness the various Firefox XPI spyware and malware attacks)
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If I am not mistaken, those attacks weren't usable across all platforms that Firefox runs on and in fact one of those exploits actually dealt with a system call that is bugged on Windows, but not bugged on other Operating Systems. Which, in a way pointed the exploit more towards Windows then towards Firefox, even though the Firefox team owned it and fixed their implementation of that system call to protect the Windows machines.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Similarly linux is full of holes, with new ones popping up each week. yes it is probably more secure, in part because most of the users know how to secure their boxes, but there are plenty of vunerabilities and exploits to go around if someone really wanted to, including quite a few in the newer 2.6 kernels and yes, if you are on top of things, you can patch these more quickly than having to wait on Microsoft to release a service pack - but you still have to actively manage these, or at least run apt-get or equivalent.
//www.linuxsecurity.com/content/view/118183/150/ for a round up of new fixes in the last few days for example.
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I read through that list and more then half of that list is software that I simply do not run (and to be honest, most people don't). Squirrelmail, for instance, is an IMAP webserver interface for e-mail. It is a service that is ran on relatively few PCs. Most of those bugs are also not Linux Kernel related, they are extra services that simply don't even need to be installed on most Personal Computers.
You can say, "Well, why is it okay to point out flaws in Internet Explorer and Internet Information Server as Operating System problems, while stating that those same 'type' of applications can be 'downplayed' when it comes to Linux?"
It's actually pretty easy to answer that.
For one, most of the bugs that have been found in Apache and Firefox are not considered 'root-level' exploitable bugs. If you don't understand that term, we should stop here, you should read into what is and what isn't a 'root-level' exploit and then we can continue.
Internet Explorer is tied into the heart of the Operating System, it simply cannot be removed from a Windows based PC as it is tied into so many different aspects of the OS that the OS could become crippled with all aspects of Internet Explorer removed. The problem with this design decision is that any exploit of the Web Browser can, and so far has been most often, a 'root-level' compromise of the Operating System.
Internet Information Services, in order to increase the performance and speed of the web server, is now integrated into the Windows Kernel. This has resulted in some speed increases, but has also made it much more likely for 'root-level' exploits to occur, when an exploitable bug is located within the web server application.
Originally posted by Gordon:
if 99% of the desktop market was linux, many more of these would be used than currently are - when all those badly secured, vunerable windows boxes are out there, it is just not worthwhile. |
Well, you are missing out on a recent study wherein default installations of several operating systems, from Windows, several Linux Distros and Solaris were setup as 'Honeypots'. What was found is that a default Windows XP install, when connected directly to the Internet, can be owned/cracked within 6 minutes and sometimes less. The several Linux distros took 6 months for the first one to be cracked to be cracked, this was again a default installation with not a single patch installed. In fact, one of the machines compromised was only compromised due to a 'brute-force' password cracking attempt. |
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02/10/2005 07:55:00 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I much prefer my IE with the beautiful Yahoo toolbar that instantly gets me anywhere I need to be... |
Yahoo! betas! toolbar! for! Firefox!
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02/11/2005 05:30:36 PM · #60 |
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02/11/2005 06:23:57 PM · #61 |
Crikey. That's a lot of benchmarking! Unfortunately he only seems to test on one PC per O/S and as we saw in the post that started this thread, different computers will perform differently (leaf's PC rendered the test page faster in IE, my work computer rendered the exact same page faster in Firefox).
Funniest stat - Internet Explorer, which preloads itself when Windows starts, still takes longer to launch than Opera. Quality.
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02/11/2005 06:37:55 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I much prefer my IE with the beautiful Yahoo toolbar that instantly gets me anywhere I need to be... |
Yahoo! betas! toolbar! for! Firefox! |
Hmmm...okay, I might give this a second chance now...
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