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01/19/2005 09:26:29 PM · #1 |
I thought I would be free from starting posts like this but I guess I was wrong. I seem very flustered lately. While my best of 04' shot is doing better than my avg I still feel down. I can't seem to please even myself lately. I would love to sit here and say it doesn't matter what you all think, but the truth is that it does. It really does matter what the world thinks. It's becoming so bad that I am beginning to doubt any talent within myself. Should I listen to my loved ones? The ones who say I'm great. Or should I listen to all of you who vote me below avg. I anticipate alot of people saying 'keep shooting and learning'. But I don't seem to be 'learning' anything. I don't seem to be improving (at least score wise). I've tried to ignore the scores as so many have suggested but realize it's futile. At what point should a person quit lying to themselves and get 'a real job'. I really do enjoy photographing people. It seems my interest in it shows through, but only sometimes. I really seem to struggle with the post processing while I can't attain the desired effect without it. I see people on her e like DRJONES, HANLOMBA etc. And I almost want to weep. These guys are just unbelievable. How is anyone supposed to be successful when there is work like that out there? I began to be inspired by these two mainly (I shot before coming here, but from here they are just wow) but now it's like, 'why even bother'.
When I think about what I really want to do with photography the answer always returns the same... Music. My 10+ year musical background is still ripe within me. I don't so much enjoy 'playing' music anymore as I do 'composing' it. What does that translate to in terms of photography? I really just want to shoot album covers and things like that but damnit I can't seem to attain the right 'finishes' and effects.
Sorry to anyone who thought this thread was anything but belly aching but I guess we all need to rant eventually. So there it is, my insides on a plate. I really just needed to 'say' it without the words falling on deaf ears.
I really don't want to end up like the fools on American Idol. You know the ones who have been lied to. The ones who think they are talented but oblivious to the fact that they blow. I once thought I had an 'eye' for it. But after seeing so many wonderful interpretations of things, and so many outstanding photos, I am really feeling like an imposter.
Alot of you friends have helped me out in the past. Forgiven me (I hope) for my wrongs. And listened to my rambling endlessly. I want to say even though you are all the source of my current discontent, I appriciate every last one of you (yes even you madmordegon). You all make this a special place, a special group to be apart of. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart. It's not easy to socialize with two jobs and twins but this place gives me a place to call 'my own'. Thanks again for the ear, and the year. Thanks.
Joe
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01/19/2005 09:37:00 PM · #2 |
Hi Joe,
First off, figure out a way to detach yourself from those damned scores. I used to let them bug me, and as of recent, am looking to please only one person in the crowd - me! If you let them bring you down, your inspiration will go right down with them. Find you niche and make yourself happy first.
My best of 2004 score is above my average, but about 1 ½ points below my personal best. Funny thing is, I like it about 1 ½ points more than my personal best score here.
You won't please everyone, all the time. Not gonna' happen. Sure, shoot a bunch of nudity shots and watch you points, favs, views go up, but it's not realism.
Just my 0.02¢ worth.
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01/19/2005 09:38:04 PM · #3 |
I would start by heeding your own words:
"Some of you will love my work, some of you will hate it. I'm not willing to change that if I could. I am willing to continue giving you a reason to decide for yourself and I'm willing to let you do so."
You have only had 11 challenges, give yourself time and patience. |
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01/19/2005 09:50:05 PM · #4 |
You need to free yourself of the burden of satisfying other people. The more concerned you are of getting a high score the more you will miss opportunities to just shoot. It's a cliche but it's true. Shoot without worrying about whether people will like it or not. You dont even have to shoot for yourself, just shoot. You may be surprised at how good photographic freedom feels.
As to postprocessing... read tutorials, play with your editing tools, ask people, and dont be afraid to try new things. Dont just learn the how, learn the why and when also. Having people you admire helps as you can study their style and try and analyse why they did what they did, try and emulate it, and then create your own take on it.
And finally, scores dont always equate to skill. There is a lot more than skill involved to get a good score and place high here. You can also have skill and still not always finish with a high score. JJ is a perfect example - he can win ribbon after ribbon and then finish in the bottom 10% the next week and bounce back for another ribbon the following week. |
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01/19/2005 09:55:10 PM · #5 |
I think highly of your Moonscape 1 (was it?). It has something not repeated anywhere else on DPC. I look at it and think, there is something this guy has an eye for I do not have. What do you think?
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01/19/2005 11:05:13 PM · #6 |
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01/19/2005 11:20:11 PM · #7 |
Joe, I know how you feel.
I thought my movie titles photo was great.
I was proud of it, I loved it and thought I had taken a big step towards taking more artistic photos, rather than the journalistic reporting type that seems to be my preference.
I decided to just be really pleased with myself and not let the inevitable 1's, 2's and 3's get to me.
However, when yet again I ended up with a lower score than I thought I deserved, I was really disheartened.
I wish I had a solution for people like us, something that would magically grow a thicker skin and stops us from caring, but I don't.
We'll just have to be tough, keep trying, and remember how good it feels when we're pleased with ourselves.
You mentioned your loved ones.... they know you well enough to be honest with you. If they really hated your efforts, they would find a gentle way to tell you that. So YES you should listen to them.
Hang in there, Joe, many others feel the same way you do.
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01/19/2005 11:32:16 PM · #8 |
Since I am a man of few words,,, What Beetle said.
Ray |
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01/19/2005 11:34:16 PM · #9 |
| Beetle, who knows Ray, at this point bites down hard on the fist she just shoved into her mouth, then sits on her hands so she can't type some really smart comment about that "few words" remark. |
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01/19/2005 11:35:21 PM · #10 |
Joe,
Pleasing the voters in DPC should not be a goal. Based on what you stated in your post, you seem to realize that.
You are clearly not that pleased with your own images, however. You should be asking yourself why not. You should be setting definable and attainable goals for your images outside the forum of the challenges, which is a different playing field altogether. Pick one, tangible aspect of your work you wish to improve, then study and work at that until it has shown measurable improvement. Then focus on another area, and another. Eventually it will add up.
This "soul searching" is good, as long as it serves as a goad to your work; if it becomes self-flagellation, it becomes an intensely negative presence in your life, and that would indicate your art might best be served by hanging up the cameras for a while, and coming back fresh.
Been there, done that.
Robt.
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01/19/2005 11:37:06 PM · #11 |
I don't know what to tell you. Could it be that you're just not shooting enough? Most of the great photos you see everywhere are probably one of a hundred or more taken by that photographer.
No doubt if you took your camera to Dr. Jones' studio and shot his models, you'd come out with some damn good photos. Maybe it's time for a change in what you shoot.
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I, personally, find myself getting in and out of different aspects of photography all the time as I consider myself quite new to the whole thing. Find something that interests you at that moment. If you feel like candids, go out on a Saturday for like 4 hours and just shoot candids. If you feel like automotive, go to a car show. I bet you'll come away with something you will like then.
If you're into black and whites, or find a new 'trick' in photoshop, go back through some of your favorite's originals and see what you come up with.
No doubt everyone goes through this exact thing you're feeling from time to time. Just remember -- that ONE SHOT -- can be just one shutter click away...and I'm serious -- don't give up.
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01/20/2005 12:36:35 AM · #12 |
Joe, I feel your pain. I'm not going to tell you to just ignore the votes and please yourself. I think that's folly. It doesn't matter how much you personally love a photo, or whether you're scoring a 3 or a 7, every low vote that comes in is a stab in the heart. This is a competitive site, and deep down everyone wants to score well.
Poor scores do NOT equal a poor photographer. This site is different in that it's not simply about taking a good photo... it's about whether you can understand the gist of a specific topic and then quickly capture an appealing photo that clearly communicates that concept to a very critical group of peers. Even if you are technically proficient with a camera, that's no easy task. This site has plenty of members with great portfolios and lousy entries (I don't think you have enough pics in your portfolio for me to judge fairly).
I would say that 11 challenges is a poor gauge of your potential. It took me 20 challenges to hit bottom, and about thirty to "figure it out." Glancing at your entries, I would consider about half of them "just a picture of a thing," if that makes any sense. A broken cigarette in an ashtray isn't going to score well unless there's something eye-catching about it... smoke rising to form a skull and crossbones, for example. Maybe your frustration is with the conceptualization rather than the photography itself?
Concepts are the tar pits that trap most of the middle-scoring members. You might find some inspiration in THIS thread. Try spending more time thinking about what you're going to shoot rather than looking for a shot. I usually spend the week thinking about a challenge, and shoot on the last day or two (tyt2000 amazes me by consistently capturing great shots within a day, or even hours, of the challenge announcement). I visualize many of my better shots in the shower, because there are no distractions. If I spot something interesting or think of a cool idea, I write it down for future challenge material. You can also learn a lot conceptually by studying past winners and figuring out WHY they won.
If you you think Photoshop is a weakness, run out an grab a copy of Photoshop for Digital Photographers. That'll fix you up nicely. Last, but not least, RELAX. It's just a game, and if you stick with it you'll win much more than ribbons. Good luck! |
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01/20/2005 02:07:46 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Joe, I feel your pain. I'm not going to tell you to just ignore the votes and please yourself. I think that's folly. It doesn't matter how much you personally love a photo, or whether you're scoring a 3 or a 7, every low vote that comes in is a stab in the heart. This is a competitive site, and deep down everyone wants to score well.
You might find some inspiration in THIS thread. |
Mr. Scalvert... Not only are you a fantastic photographer, but also a wonderful teacher. I read your submission, as well as the thread you posted, and can tell you that I feel much better already. I would be remiss if I failed to tell you that yes I am learning, and that thanks to you and some of the other people in here, I am convinced I will better myself in this realm.
The only thing I can say to you Joe is that I am confident that with time, patience, research and a great deal of dedication, you too will achieve your goals. Stick with it my friend,,, I honestly believe that you will succeed.... because you care,,, and care a great deal.
Good luck to you,,, and happy shooting!!!
Ray |
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01/20/2005 03:27:39 AM · #14 |
Joe, For what it's worth; Some of my highest rated shots are also some of my least favorite photographs. On the flip side, some of the shots I get the most satisfaction from are also some of my lower scoring entries.
It's not all about the score my friend, It's about getting to know new techniques and learning the camera so you can make it do more of what you want it to. Most of the photographers here seem to excel more in one area than another. This is a great place to learn from each others strengths. Keep it fun. Don't let the score get you down.
Oh, and If I ever tried to get into one of those tight plexiglas outfits of Dr. Jones... I'm purdy sure it would totally ruin his love for that type of photography. Not to mention I would make a pretty big sphincticle out of myself. I dont think I will excel in that area much. That's one of those things I will just have to live with. To me, Martin's work is only to be admired.
Cheers Joe!
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 03:30:16. |
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01/20/2005 04:25:27 AM · #15 |
Firstly, a brave post in my view - very honest.
Secondly, I believe satisfying the voters is quite important here, at least from a professional perspective. The more voters you satisfy, the closer you are to getting a brief right, and therefore understanding 'the client' and what they want.
The important thing is to do it in a way that retains your integrity and doesn't compromise your own interests. Sit some challenges out until the right one comes along or, just for fun, go for a win as best you can, forsaking your preferences to see if you can give people what they want.
Good luck whatever, and I certainly don't think it's worth quitting - just work through some editing tutorials and you'll build some confidence. it's not rocket science and the beauty is that you can mess around without spoiling an original! Just go mad and release that feeling of restraint when experimenting.
Jon
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01/20/2005 05:20:32 AM · #16 |
MagicShutter
It depends what you want out of your photography in all honesty.
If your wanting personal praise from Joe public or to learn how to shoot stock on demand, then scores are valuable - even those from photographers with no clue. Like John Said.
However, if your goal is to simply better your technique and photography in general, the scores really do not help that much as they can get you down, and become the burden of self depreciation.
For what it's worth DPC is more about hitting the subject well rather than simply taking a decent image.
A score of 7 doesn't mean it's good photograph by any means - I have had 7's for some pretty average shots, and 5's for some better ones. So much weight is given to the challenge criteria, that is what this site is about after all.
To show my view - just look at a free study or the masters challenge - here you generally get a better view for scores reflecting photographic quality as there is no opportunity for people marking you down for not meeting the challenge.
The Masters Challenge
Free Study 1
Free Study 2
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01/20/2005 06:36:03 AM · #17 |
joe thats rubish, you are as talented as anyone else here.
it could be something simple, like not choosing the right subjects
for the voting public.
i saw a post from sher & grigrigirl saying they think their work
'sucks'. !!?
i'm a firm believer in 'the more you practice, the luckier you get'.
:) |
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01/20/2005 06:51:46 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by goodman:
joe thats rubbish, you are as talented as anyone else here. |
I really do not think that comments like that are helpful, although very nice.
He is correct in saying that Dr Jones' photographs - on the whole - are more finished than his. They have a certain better quality of light and clarity than his.
That's the great thing about life - whatever we do there are always people better than us and that is what keeps us motivated. To think of someones work as better than yours is paramount in improving. And recognizing it is even better which he has shown, and with great honesty I must say.
People saying your fabulous all the time doesn't help in the long run.
Attitudes like Joe's are the sign of a good photographer and very rare.
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 06:54:30.
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01/20/2005 07:27:21 AM · #19 |
perhaps the problem is not in your photography but in your selection of challenges. It is not a crime to enter ALL the challenges but When you have an idea go with it and just keep playing with it until you get it right. If you find when the deadline is up that your not happy with it then don't enter. Enter only if you think its good and who cares what people think. I shoot for me and could care less what people think. Wanna make yourself feel better then find a tourist place where people come to take pictures of (a monument) something and take pictures of people taking pictures.
Remember photography is fun, so have fun with it.
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01/20/2005 07:44:47 AM · #20 |
Joe, I read your post and I understand what you feel to a certain extent. I dont much care if people dont like my photos because there will be someone, maybe only 1, who will. I get a lot of pleasure when someone picks one of my photos as a favourite. You have to experiment and just keep on taking photos. You also need to enjoy taking photos. I look at the world so diffently these days, even my wife says to me when were out 'your thinking what that would like as a photograph'.
Whilst its great when other people like your photos you have to learn to like what you photograph and to hell with the rest of the world.
Mike
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01/20/2005 07:59:05 AM · #21 |
Joe, remember the old saying "you can't please all the people all the time". Shoot what pleases YOU or you might as well stop shooting.
There are those that feel photographs should only be shot on film with NO touch-ups and anything digital is not photography. Others have open eyes and see all the potential. Some like only black/white while others prefer infared.
You will never please everyone out there, you lose desire when you stop shooting what makes you happy...it's like any job (especially mine), if you don't like what your doing your not going to do it to the best of your ability.
Bring back the joy and you will improve beyound your wildest dreams.
Good luck and God Bless. |
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01/20/2005 09:00:52 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by goodman:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
joe thats rubbish, you are as talented as anyone else here.
I really do not think that comments like that are helpful, although very nice.
He is correct in saying that Dr Jones' photographs - on the whole - are more finished than his. They have a certain better quality of light and clarity than his.
maybe dr jones has been in photography much longer!!!
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01/20/2005 10:19:07 AM · #23 |
great post! i've felt the same way at least 4 or 5 times since joining this site. sometimes it just helps to know you aren't alone ... and trust me, you aren't.
i say enter as many challenges as possible, this will cause one of two things to happen:
1 - you'll continue to crap out until eventually the low scores become meaningless. you truly won't care anymore.
2 - you'll get better at figuring out what others are looking for and you'll ribbon.
either way, you win. i do ok here, but i still get discouraged. i just keep telling myself that my time is coming, just not yet. we've seen people explode for multiple ribbons in a very short time ... who's to say that couldn't happen to you ... or better yet, me :) |
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01/20/2005 10:45:24 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by hopper:
great post! i've felt the same way at least 4 or 5 times since joining this site. sometimes it just helps to know you aren't alone ... and trust me, you aren't.
i say enter as many challenges as possible, this will cause one of two things to happen:
1 - you'll continue to crap out until eventually the low scores become meaningless. you truly won't care anymore.
2 - you'll get better at figuring out what others are looking for and you'll ribbon.
either way, you win. i do ok here, but i still get discouraged. i just keep telling myself that my time is coming, just not yet. we've seen people explode for multiple ribbons in a very short time ... who's to say that couldn't happen to you ... or better yet, me :) |
I have to disagree. I feel by entering every challenge you can get even more discouraged by not winning so unless you feel that the shot is good enough to enter and take a ribbon or at the least top 50 then why enter it if you like it? who cares what others think.
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01/20/2005 10:54:47 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by notonline:
who cares what others think. |
the whole point was that he does care what others think ... and entering every challenge could cure that. a single challenge doesn't hold nearly as much weight when you are entered in at least 2 per week. |
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