Umbrella vs. softboxes - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

01/06/2005 03:52:46 PM · #4

I don't think B&H carries Alien Bees, but I'd highly recommend checking them out. Do some searches on here for more information if you're not familiar with them. They are a system that will grow with you. They will take up to a 150W modeling lamp, and if you start with the B400's, they can be upgraded to B800's or B1600's down the road for a nominal fee + the difference in price if you determine you need more power. I have a photography books that shows pictures of pro photographers with Alien Bees in their studios, so they are definitely "up to the task". (This tutorial by our own KevinRiggs uses one of his B800's for illustrative purposes.)

One strobe and a reflector is really all you need to get started. You'll be amazed at the difference between working with a "real" studio strobe and the halogen work lights you are using now.

There are plenty of discussions about this in the forums here; I've participated in quite a few discussions.

Also consider looking into the Photek Softlighter II as something between an umbrella and a softbox. Actually, it can be used as an umbrella, or as a shoot-through umbrella, or as a diffuse umbrella (as shown in the picture). B&H carries them. (You don't want/need the 7mm version if that confuses you.)

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 15:59:51.

jpochard

Canon EOS-40D

01/06/2005 04:01:05 PM · #5

I will check out the Allen Bees. Thanks. I'm looking to spend no more than about $350 to start.

Mick

01/06/2005 04:02:48 PM · #6

Originally posted by jpochard:

Strobes are the way to go. Either monolights or pack&head setup. Monolights (light and power source in one unit) are quite a bit less expensive than most pack&head (separate light and power modules) setups that Iâ��ve seen. Itâ��s my understanding that pack systems are more top-end, but monolights have lots of the same features for less money. Any type of continuous lighting is going to be HOT, just like your halogens. I love my AlienBees lighting equipment. Lots of top-notch features for a very good price.

[P.S.] I see that EddyG beat me to the AlienBees plug. It figures, since he was the one that talked me into buying mine. :)

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 16:05:34.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/06/2005 04:04:00 PM · #7

I'd highly recommend the Beginner Bee package then, especially since it comes with the B800 strobe, which should serve you quite well...

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

01/06/2005 04:37:25 PM · #8

Umbrellas.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

01/06/2005 04:41:59 PM · #9

OK- I see lots of people leaning towards umbrellas. Why? I have two AlienBees with umbrellas (at work), but I want a softbox for more diffuse light. Am I nuts? (OK, trick question)

mrorange002

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

01/06/2005 04:42:24 PM · #10

one of each

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

01/06/2005 04:44:01 PM · #11

Soft boxes are good for some things, but I just use my lamps with two umbrellas. Most people don't know what it takes to produce great light (me being one of them) and are thinking it's the gear, when like cameras, it's usually the operator :-)

There's a reason there are very few lighting experts and they get paid well (or so I hear).

Not a diss, just something to think about before you drop more coin.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/06/2005 04:44:10 PM · #12

Shannon... I think if may be because of the "start up" comment. Umbrellas are typically much cheaper than a decent softbox, but an umbrella is much better than just the standard aluminum reflector.

That being said, I totally agree with you that in the long run, big humongous softboxes are the way to go. I have a 48"x36" now and am eyeing a 72"x48" if I can convince my wife to let me disperse the funds... [HomerVoice] Mmmmm... wrap-around lighting [/HomerVoice] =]

edit to add: I'm talking for portrait photography; doing commercial/product photography is a totally different story where a variety of lighting modifiers that produce everything from hard shadows to wrap-around lighting are needed.

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 16:51:45.

Natator

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/06/2005 05:03:50 PM · #13

I did a studio lighting course a month or so back. The instructor aimed things at doing things on the (relative) cheap for us, as none of us were pros. His suggestion went like this:

1) Bare minimum = 1 strobe and a reflector

2) Next go for umbrellas

3) Next get a softbox. He much preferred them to umbrellas but was working through a budget route.

4) Next get a second light.

I got a kit with umbrellas, reflector and softbox. I definitely prefer the softbox over the white umbrella (not comparing it to the silver one as they are so different) but having said that I would have also been fine with just the umbrella.

Davenit

Canon EOS-1D

01/06/2005 05:07:31 PM · #14

Never touch the stuff... :-)

terje

Apple iPhone

01/06/2005 05:36:32 PM · #15

Hey Davenit!!

Will you submit soon? :-D

KevinRiggs

Canon EOS-1Ds

01/06/2005 07:04:02 PM · #16

Judy,

I think since you're starting off and you want to get into it for the amount you mentioned you might be best served with a monolight and an umbrella. You're going to get to explore single light lighting which can give you more dramatic shadows. I purchased 3 B800's when I made the plunge but only because I was hired to shoot for a celebratory ball and wanted to be sure that with as little experience as I had I could be pretty sure there would be no hard shadows. When I'm testing lighting and playing with playing around with shadows I setup one B800 and go to town. One thing I bought is a reflector holder to mount onto on of the light stands. I put the light off to one side and mount the reflector on the other. With as little room as I have its difficult to really "play" with controlling the reflected light very well as I can't move the reflector back to diffuse much reflected light but its the 2nd step I'd suggest for you (if you're really just wanting to work your way into it).

Because the Sony DSC F717 doesn't come with a pc sync connection (has nothing to do with a computer; its how the camera triggers the strobe), you will need to pickup a hot shoe sync connector (link to Wein version on B&H). The one I linked to costs about $50 USD. The cable comes with the strobe head.

There are several strobe packages out there and I'm sure you can get a good deal. I happened to go with AlienBees as its a complete system. I got all the lighting stuff from them (monolights, portable battery pack, light modifiers, etc). I got my stands from B&H, though, just cause I wanted the taller stands in hopes that someday I can find that elusive studio loft that some elderly person has gotten all the use out of and wants to rent out to some nut like me on the cheap instead of letting it sit empty, tall ceilings and all. Mmmmm, mmmm. ::DROOL::

Here's another thing to consider seriously. If you do purchase the AB's, then depending on the size of your room you might want to stay with the 400 or put a little money into a neutral density filter (thread Cokin filters) to get those wide open capabilities of your lenses. The 10D only syncs with the flash at 1/200th sec (not sure about the F717) and with the B800 set on 1/32nd power I often find that I can't open a lens past about f/3.5 or f/4. With a neutral density filter I will (notice the future tense) be able to more easily get into some of those faster apertures while creating dyanmic lighting differences between the different lights in my setup. As it is now, I have to really push them down to their low ends so that I have little separation between the power differences of each light and then I have to stop down the lens to a point where the backdrop is more in-focus than I want. These are just some things you might want to consider.

I have a shoot scheduled this Sunday afternoon so I will take some photos of the lighting setup to illustrate what I do and maybe update the tutorial.

If you choose AlienBees, you might want to consider calling someone at Paul C Buff (mfgrs of AlienBees and White Lightning brand strobes) as they have been very helpful.

BTW, I really liked your chandalier photo. Very creative. People committed to that PaD really start to push their own creativity and that's when you can get some killer shots. Is the ceiling in that photo already textured or is that just the interplay of the lights?

Good luck and let us know what you choose.

Kev

EDIT:
Darnit, forgot to mention that the F717 takes 58mm threaded filters. The P adapter is $12.95 at B&H, the holder is another $12.95 if I remember correctly and the ND filter was something like $10 or 12. There's no pressing need to have them but just in case you run into an extra $50 somewhere and decide to pickup the 3 pieces to the Cokin set at least you'll have an idea about one way to get started with the ND filters.

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 19:08:05.

graphicfunk

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

01/06/2005 07:21:24 PM · #17

Let me offer my two cents on this lighting topic. This is merely my viewpoint.

It is best to start with umbrellas and three strobes. You can make do with two, but three offers more flexibility as I am insistent on the backlight.

The umbrellas are very flexible because they disperse light in a wider angle. Even with umbrellas you have to watch out for hotspots.

Here is the shot.

Next for consideration is the soft box. Like EddyG said, they can not be big enough. The sofbox lends a flatter distribution of light. Two soft boxes can produce some very smooth lighting.

Next up for consideration, even if you only use umbrellas, is a spot light, better even with a fresnel lens. This allows you to focus its beam. The spot light can be used as a backlight for hair, like they do in holluwood shots. It can also be used to add interesting highlights when the lighting is generally flat as is the case with sofboxes.

The next approach is the home made reflectors. These are merely a 3x6, or 4x6 feet wooden frames over which you stretch a piece of white muslin. I needed a very diffused look for a commissioned image and this did the job. They have the advantage of creating a very even distribution over a large area. I employ 4 of these.
Sorry, I do not have a bigger image at the moment. Lost in the archives.

+

[url=//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=82071][img]

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 19:25:32.

swagman

Nikon D200

01/06/2005 07:30:16 PM · #18

Judy

What are you planning to photograph?

Portraits - use an umbrella. It gives a nice round highlight in the eyes, more natural than a rectangular one.

Product photography / still life - depending on what you're photographing, a softbox can get closer to the product, and the rectangular shape is normally better for highlights.

I have a Photogenic 6' umbrella, 4' softbox and 18" softbox.
I generally use the umbrella for fill light and the softboxes for key. I have several small silver and white umbrellas I rarely use.

For the hot shoe connector, go to Pete's Photoworld on Main St. Last time I checked they had some for under $10. I keep mine on the camera constantly, as they're small enough not to get in the way.

swagman

Nikon D200

01/06/2005 07:38:43 PM · #19

I also noticed reflectors mentioned. I have one portable disc reflector (3' that folds to 18"). In the studio I use styrofoam panels from 4x8 on down, and there are insulation boards covered with silver foil make excellent silver reflectors - cheap. The stryofam and insulation panels can be cut to any size desired, and a folding reflector can be made by ductaping two panels together. They can also be cut to shape and used to produce shadows, or shape light through a pattern cut into them. They can be ductaped into a reflector box for glass and jewelry, etc.

I made a diffused studio table out of 2x4s and a sandblasted sheet of plexi-glass, if you're interested in the design. Frank's Autoglass, here in Fairfield, provided the glass, and they can also sandblast sheets of safety glass, as well.

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 19:55:24.

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

01/06/2005 07:43:08 PM · #20

I paid $ 278 for package of 2 600W quartz lights with umbrellas.
They are not perfect but good for start !

Here is the package link .

Message edited by author 2005-01-06 19:48:44.

Natator

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/06/2005 08:47:46 PM · #21

Originally posted by swagman:

Portraits - use an umbrella. It gives a nice round highlight in the eyes, more natural than a rectangular one.

I never considered that, what a very valid point indeed.

The catchlight in the eye is important, imho, and if I use two light sources I will always find myself (non basic editing comp) editing out the second one caught by the eyes as I do not like the look when there are two.

I typically leave in the softbox one as this gets used most, but yup, it often looks square.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/06/2005 09:10:17 PM · #22

I really know nothing about any of it but Santa brought me some Alien Bees with umbrellas for Christmas because a local photographer advised Santa that umbrellas are much more portable than softboxes which might be something to take into consideration depending on what you'll be using the equipment for.

That is a very long sentence.

swagman

Nikon D200

01/06/2005 09:22:06 PM · #23

Natator

Use the softbox as a fill, and raise it so the highlight doesn't appear in the eyes. Use the umbrella as key, slightly higher than eye level. Or, Use just the umbrella as key, and a white styrofoam panel to reflect fill light on the subjects face from the side. Feather the key light so justthe soft edge of the light strikes the face, and the hotspot (middle) strikes the reflector; the simplest method of nice portrait lighting.

ADGibson

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/06/2005 09:24:20 PM · #24

Originally posted by pitsaman:

I paid $ 278 for package of 2 600W quartz lights with umbrellas.
They are not perfect but good for start !

Here is the package link .

Are these strobes?

graphicfunk