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12/14/2004 07:19:39 PM · #1
I have called Canon, Alien Bees, and B&H. All have said that I cant use the 580ex off the camera, with the st-e2, and or the 580ex on the camera to work with the strobes wirelessly. I can however get the speedlight and ONLY ONE bee (strobe) to work, by using the sync cord to disable the built in slave tripper on the strobe. But then only 2, the speed light and the strobe that is sync-ed up are tripping at the same time. The other bee would trip to soon, not to late, to soon. I disabled all preflash, camera and st-e2 etc, etc, I tried every combo five times, full manual. Speaking of manual, I also read that again. I test fired a gazillion shots into a background with grids pointed at two objects and the speed light for fill to make sure I knew exactly what was going on. I̢۪m talking I tried everything, at least I think I did. So to get both my strobes and the 580ex all to fire at the same time I will be sync-ing up both strobes, I ordered a Hama Multi-Sync (PC 3x) Adapter from B& H for 14.95. This will allow now, supposedly , since double checking both strobes in criss-cross fashion that all three will fire at the same time. This again since when a strobe was sync-ed with my camera it would fire with the st-e2. When not sync-ed, both strobes would preflash., and the 580 would fire correctly. For a wireless strobe set up would be a different subject. Which according to the experts I talked to, leave the 580ex out of the equation for a wireless multi light set up. By the way I enjoy my 580 and the st-e2. Not sorry but maybe would have kept the 420 had I known this. I did get to exchange it but, the extra dough for the 580 and st-e2 was significant. Hope this helps someone, it sure would have saved me time and flash tube life. If anyone knows how to, and has confirmed, to get strobes and the 580 to fire simultaneously "Wirelessly", that would be greatly appreciated. Again I̢۪m positive I turned off all preflash lights, auto focus lights etc etc, anything that was a light I disabled.
12/14/2004 08:16:15 PM · #2
Ok, I have just had this exact problem and found a solution ...

I was initially trying to use x2 Elinchrom studio strobes, an ST-E2, a 580ex and a 420ex, and had exactly the same problem.

Initially I bought a couple of off shoe light sensitive slave. I then could either trigger the whole system with the PC Sync cord to one of the studio strobes or use a crappy old flash unit on the camera for the initial pulse.

The ST-E2 was not used at all in the system, other than I found it a great way to trigger the various flashes remotely up front for light metering, as then even if it is the pre-signal from the ST-E2 that fires the unit in question it does not matter.

This worked perfectly except ..... both of the Canon units fired perfectly, but only once, and had to be turned off/on between every shot, which was a MAJOY pain.

I ended up chatting to Yossi at B&H for about a week and he came up with a solution for this. There is one off shoe whatsit that does not cause the Canon units to lock up. You then use this with a peanut light sensitive trigger (he suggested using the unit below and not the one specifically for digital cameras.

Go the the B&H site and in the search box put in the following:

WEPN-3 This is a 3 pack, but the code for the single unit, WEPN, brings upo extra results in the search and I want to make sure you see the correct one.

KAPCHSAQ This is the all important unit that fires the Canons correctly.

Mine are literally mid air over the Pacific as I type this, due here in the next day or so.

I will then be able to run both Canon Speedlights and both strobes at once, and ignore the ST-E2 for this. Can use the PC Sync cable, or if I want to go completely wireless just use an old non Canon flash unit I have.

Thanks Yossi :)

Message edited by author 2004-12-14 20:34:56.
12/14/2004 10:29:29 PM · #3
I̢۪m afraid to look like an idiot. But here goes. How do you get the 580ex to fire without being on the camera and or without a st--e2. The problem is I am very new to this. I get the impression from your reply you can fire the canon speed light with a flash of light from the strobe, or an old flash. if so I haven̢۪t been able to do this. Thanks.
12/14/2004 10:50:50 PM · #4
Hi-ho,

I'm using my new 580ex off camera using a pc-sync cable and hotshoe adaptor without any problems.. In Manual mode with a flash meter that is. if you want E-ttl to work you're at the whim of the Canon R&D department.

I'm using a Nikon SB-24 and two vivitar 285's with hot shoe slaves triggers and it all works fine...

As per Natator's post, slave triggers on the 580ex (or any ex flash for that matter) will be problematic. I've only got one ex flash, so I use it as the cabled flash, and use the older flashes with standard hotshoe slaves and it's all good.

Cheers, Chris H.
12/14/2004 11:56:49 PM · #5
Originally posted by plumber711:

How do you get the 580ex to fire without being on the camera and or without a st--e2.


The WEPN (peanut slave) is essentially an optical trigger.

When another flash, any flash (or even the pre-flash signal on the ST-E2) goes off it will activate the trigger and the 580ex, or any other flash for that matter, will then fire.

Use the manual setting on the 580ex and you get whatever output you need.

As Ohmark says though, you do not then get E-ttl like you would with the ST-E2, but if using studio strobes that is probably not an issue (it certainly is not for me).

You must have got lucky with the make of hot shoe there Chris, as apparently this is a known problem with the speedlights and they do not work on the majority of hot shoe mounts, unless using a sync cable rather than an optical trigger gets round the issue.
12/15/2004 12:59:28 AM · #6
Natator, you said----When another flash, any flash (or even the pre-flash signal on the ST-E2) goes off it will activate the trigger and the 580ex, or any other flash for that matter, will then fire.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. The signal from the st-e2 fires the slave strobe not sync-ed before the shutter opens, becoming useless.This is manual, and ttl. The strobe that is sync fires at the same time as the 580. 3 lights 3 flashes, only 2 used in the pic. The sync strobe and the 580ex,In manual or ttl. But i think your saying i can use the peanut slave to trigger all three lights, 2 strobes and the 580 in a wireless mode. But then do i need that hot shoe thingamagig, you said-- KAPCHSAQ This is the all important unit that fires the Canons correctly. But then it's not wireless, right, cause the hot shoe is hooked up via a sync cord. Thanks again and sorry for being so ignorant.

Message edited by author 2004-12-15 01:03:22.
12/15/2004 02:31:03 AM · #7
Naw, not ignorant at all, I've only got my head around this as I've been looking into it for the last couple of weeks. Plus I have not explained as clearly as I might.

So, there are two workable setups here (note, no ST-E2 involved here):

1) x2 strobes, x2 speedlights

Strobe 1: Connected via PC cord to camera

This fires and acts as the light trigger for all the other
lights.

Strobe 2: Fires via it's inbuilt light slave

580ex: Set to manual. This sits on the hotshoe whatsit (B&H KAPCHSAQ mentioned before, not all makes work correctly with speedlights remember). The light sensitive trigger (WEPN mentioned earlier) is connected to the PC cord that is part of the hotshoe whatsit. Main strobe fires, light is picked up by the WEPN, this sends a charge (I assume) to the hotshoe, which fires the 580ex attached to it. It is still cordless here as there is no connection between this little setup and anything else in the room. Look at the two parts I showed at B&H and it will make more sense, you can see hoe the peanut slave simply attached to the very short cord off the hotshoe whatsit.

420ex: Same setup as above, but just leave in normal mode, not slave, as you can't set manual. I assume this just fires at full power.

or ....

2) x2 strobes, x2 speedlights, one extra on camera flash (not the inbuilt one) - now fully wireless.

Strobe 1: NOT now connected to the camera via cord, just use its inbuilt light slave.

Strobe 2 and both speedlights: Exactly as above

Extra flash: I am using a dirt cheap non canon flash. Would work with a 550/580 here in manual mode, but not a 420. Any non ttl flash will work though. This flash is NOT a part of the lighting you are trying to achieve (well, it could be, but I wouldn't personally). Aim the flash head up at the ceiling (directly up, not like when you bounce). When you push the shutter release, this just pulses out light and then that fires all four other lights.

Hopefully I have explained myself better, but please ask for any clarification if not :)

Message edited by author 2004-12-15 02:34:00.
12/15/2004 02:56:23 AM · #8
Originally posted by Natator:

You must have got lucky with the make of hot shoe there Chris, as apparently this is a known problem with the speedlights and they do not work on the majority of hot shoe mounts, unless using a sync cable rather than an optical trigger gets round the issue.


'Urro..

The sync cable is the trick, I'm using the pc-sync port on the 20D through a 15 foot cable to a simple hot-shoe to PC connector type doofer that only has the center pin. I'd take a photo and post it, but I lent my gear to a friend who's trying to decide on the film/digital dilema.

The optical slave hot-shoe doofers are good for all my other flashes, but as you found you have to power off the flash with the generic optical slaves when used with ex flashes... Not much fun if you're shooting people.

Using b&h to Illustrate the kit I use..

I'm using a Kaiser PC to Hot Shoe Adapter, B&H number KAPCHSAQ

for the 580ex, plugged into the sync port on the camera using a 15' extension pc cable..

For the slaves I'm using 2 Kaiser Hot Shoe Flash Slaves (b&h number KASHS)


And one generic one I got of ebay that is almost identical..

To mount things I'm using some cheap Velbon tripods and the really neat 'Photoflex Multiclamp with Shoe Mount' clamps, which I actually bought from b&h as I couldn't find anything reasonably priced locally or on ebay that would ship to NZ.. (b&h# PHMCUSM)
.

I've got four flashes, eight brollies (4 white, 4 silver) a big gold/silver reversable reflector and a bunch of home-made soft-box like gadgets.

I'm still learning really, but I've got two 'commission' jobs next week for family portraits, and I've been doing some kids and product work, along with 'corporate' headshots for work.

I started out with (very) home made clamps, and spray painted golf umbrellas to learn with, and I've been collecting better portable kit as pocket money allows... :-).

Images 'borrowed' from b&h. Appologies to their legal department and all that, but any advertising is good advertising, right?

Cheers, Chris H.

Cheers, Me.
12/15/2004 04:45:54 AM · #9
Originally posted by ohmark:

I'm using a Kaiser PC to Hot Shoe Adapter, B&H number KAPCHSAQ
for the 580ex, plugged into the sync port on the camera using a 15' extension pc cable.


Thanks for the illustration Chris.

In my case I'll be using one of those with a speedlight on it, but the peanut slave attached to the cable, rather than cable to camera.

Originally posted by ohmark:


For the slaves I'm using 2 Kaiser Hot Shoe Flash Slaves (b&h number KASHS)


This looks like the unit I have been using, but mine was a different make. With the make I have, a generic one so no name sorry, it does the "fire once then lock up" trick. It is to do with the circuitry in the unit there, and apparently only a problem with speedlights.

When I was chatting initially with B&H Yossi did not know which of these sorts of units worked with the speedlights and which did not, just that it was a known problem. However, he spoke with a colleague and it turned out that a year or so ago when they kept having this problem one of their guys tested all these sorts of units with the speedlights and came up with the solution of the two parts that I listed.

Had I known that one you have there Chris worked I would have probably gone that way.

I recently ordered a couple of these off ebay:



Unfortunately I ordered them on 11/18 and a month later have yet to see them. I am hoping it is just a case of the US postal service/Aussie post being slow, rather than an e-bay rip off.

Message edited by author 2004-12-15 04:47:13.
12/16/2004 05:09:49 AM · #10
I had a solution the whole entire time for getting the 3 lights to all fire at the same time, 2 strobes and the 580ex using the st-e2 and didn̢۪t know it, till just now. I have the Alien Bees Four-Channel Wired Remote. Used to change the strobes output via telephone lines. $99.95 and very cool. Just sit in the chair and snap snap away while increasing and decreasing the strobes.. I sync-ed the remote to the camera, put the dummy plugs into the Bees to disable the slave light trippers, and walla. Worked TTL etc. I wonder if the wireless remote would work, but the transmitter is $199.95 with another $129.95 a receiver PER light needed. Major duckets. Now I have that 3 way splitter. 14.95 plus shipping coming for nothing but could be worse. I could use it for a back up hard wired situation. I̢۪m happy camper now. Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it. Yee ha. P.S. I figured this out myself after wondering what the little hole in the top of the remote was for, pushed in the sync cord for fun, hey it fits nicely. Got out the manual, and yeah, the rest is history. Yippee. P.S.S. Had I read that manual, (three page leaflet) as well as a good reader should I and those participating in this thread wouldn̢۪t have gone thru all this. Sorry. Yippee yippee.

Message edited by author 2004-12-16 05:16:25.
12/16/2004 05:24:40 AM · #11
Reading the manual seems a little extreme to me ;)

Cool about the wireless, I want to go that way one day but it is not worth the $ for me.

Are you sure you got TTL with the Alien Bees? Unless they are a lot more advanced than I realised I didn't think you could do that.
12/16/2004 09:27:37 AM · #12
Originally posted by Natator:

Are you sure you got TTL with the Alien Bees? Unless they are a lot more advanced than I realised I didn't think you could do that.

Nope, definitely not TTL metering with the Bees.

If I understand what plumber711 is doing, he has the ST-E2 Speedlight Transmitter mounted in the hot shoe, a 580EX in "Slave" mode, and has the Alien Bees wired remote connected via a PC sync cord to the PC port on the 20D. The two Alien Bees are connected to the wired remote via standard telephone cords, and the optical triggers on the Bees are disabled.

So when you depress the shutter button on the 20D to take a picture, here is what happens:

Before the shutter even opens, the ST-E2 sends out a series of coded, infrared flashes (which will likely be detected by any optical triggers, since most are also IR sensitive, hence the need to disable them on the Bees) asking any "slave" flashes to fire their metering pre-flash so a light reading can be made. The slave Speedlights (420EX's, 550EX's or 580EX's) decode these flashes and fire at a known output level, and the camera meters the exposure. Based on that information, it determines the power level needed for a proper exposure and sends out another coded infrared series of flashes to the slaves telling them to set their power level to "X". (It does this sequence up to three times, one for each group, A, B and C, even though it looks like it happens instantaneously. Light is fast. =) Finally, the shutter is opened and the ST-E2 sends out a coded signal to "flash now!", and at the same time, the PC sync port is activated, which also brings the Alien Bees into the exposure.

So now what you've done is totally confused the camera, because it told the slave flashes how much power to use based on what it metered from just the slave Speedlight(s), but when it came time to take the actual picture, the studio strobes added all of their light to scene, making any power calculations for the Speedlight(s) useless.

The only way around this is to set the 550EX or 580EX to "Manual" mode (not possible with a 420EX), and adjust the power level on the Speedlights manually (just like you have to do with the Alien Bees). To determine the lighting ratio and power levels, you need to take a meter reading with a hand-held light meter and adjust the camera or lights as necessary. Even with this approach, the problem is that there is no way to trigger the 580EX/550EX slaves and the Alien Bees at the same time to take a light reading except by actually taking a picture.

It sounds like Natator may have an optically-triggered solution that would work, but in my personal opinion, it isn't worth the trouble trying to mix a battery-powered flash intended for on-camera use with studio strobes. They are different beasts, and when you start missing the modeling light and having to wait 3-4 seconds for the 580EX to recycle as the batteries get low while your studio strobes recycle in a half-second, you may come to the same conclusion... =]

Message edited by author 2004-12-16 09:43:11.
12/16/2004 11:36:19 AM · #13
Originally posted by Natator:

Reading the manual seems a little extreme to me ;)

Cool about the wireless, I want to go that way one day but it is not worth the $ for me.

Are you sure you got TTL with the Alien Bees? Unless they are a lot more advanced than I realised I didn't think you could do that.


Eddyg is on the money.

My defense, though not a good one is about the wired remote, was told it was for adjusting the lights. I emailed Bees head quarters and told them how there Customer service missed that one.
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