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11/09/2004 10:13:02 PM · #1 |
i would like to see the basic editing changed to allow minor clean-up of dust and blown (hot) pixles.
especially for a macro challenge. every stoopid little tiny friggin' piece of the smallest possible dust bunny shows up on solid colors! ans those really irk-sum hot pixels that sometimes show up? come on!
anyone else think this rule should change?
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Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:13:25.
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11/09/2004 10:14:51 PM · #2 |
| heh I don't see it changing -- this is a contest for photography -- if I wanted to join a photo-editing page and compete there, I would have. Just my $.02 |
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11/09/2004 10:17:07 PM · #3 |
Many of us agree, but just as many would like to see Basic Editing reduced to cropping only. The hard part is drawing the line on what constitutes minor cleanup so that the SC can judge objectively.
P.S.- start putting your lens caps on. ;-) |
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11/09/2004 10:18:26 PM · #4 |
I have been pleading for this minor change which can be written clear and concise in the rules. Removal of hair, dust, dirt or sensor artifacts with a written account of what has been eliminated.
This is no big deal and will save busy folks time to spend on voting and doing other things.
Not only that but basic editing is the wrong term where in the film days basic editing always included the bleaching and dying of dust in a print. We seem to go either too far or too short. It is like we have a language that can not describe because our understanding varies since we fall into the domain that there are no absolutes. Therefore, the language either falls short or our understanding is either limited or expanded to defeat the very logic we claim to posses. Wacked out.lol
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:29:41. |
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11/09/2004 10:25:53 PM · #5 |
Yep, it's been discussed, at length. As a fellow dust-bunny exterminator, I feel your pain. I too think that an objective limit can be set, but I believe my view is in the minority.
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11/09/2004 10:27:40 PM · #6 |
| Open Challenges under Basic Rules have been doing fine as they are. It ain't broke and doesn't need to be fixed. Do your clean-up in the Advanced Rules challenges. Basic is for beginners and many of them don't know how to use the clone tool and would be intimidated. You don't need an extra advantage to compete against these people. |
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11/09/2004 10:28:07 PM · #7 |
well, can we vote on it? we've done a few votes in the last couple of weeks....
Just asking :)
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11/09/2004 10:32:53 PM · #8 |
I agree. Why not make basic editing the same as with film? Put it to a vote. I give you guys who oppose this credit. You must be a glutton for punishment. I did one shot 12 times one day because a cat had walked over the area and a tiny fine hair appeared in different places over and over again.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:39:16. |
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11/09/2004 10:36:27 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Open Challenges under Basic Rules have been doing fine as they are. It ain't broke and doesn't need to be fixed. Do your clean-up in the Advanced Rules challenges. Basic is for beginners and many of them don't know how to use the clone tool and would be intimidated. You don't need an extra advantage to compete against these people. |
I believe this underestimates the capability of many of those competing in the open challenges. As more and more of the general DPC population migrate to DSLRs, this issue will be of interest to lots more folks. I never would have agreed until I started doing macro work with a DSLR, and as soon as I did, I understood.
The alternative, is, of course, to clean the sensor prior to shooting at small aperture (e.g. f/16 to f/32) but one really does not want to clean more often than really necessary. There's also the question of whether folks are more capable/comfortable with cloning out a couple small dust spots, or cleaning the sensor. I'd bet >99% will elect to clone a few spots, and delay cleaning until there are too many to effectively remove.
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11/09/2004 10:37:11 PM · #10 |
With all my inclination towards 'pure' photography, i would second the opinion about more photoshop allowed in macro shots. That is the only serious reason why i am not entering this... I had some decent in my opinion shots [ like these ], but they were made through a plastic bottle's wall, so there were imperfections. Couldn't do it with glass, and with those imperfections the photos were not presentable. So i decided not to enter rather than submit something half-baked. [not that there is a shortage of entries =)]
On second thought, i don't think that macro challenges should be open challenges. Nor that they should be basic editing rules. Macro is different. And it's not trivial at all... I think it's not right for beginners to start doing macro or nudes from the start. |
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11/09/2004 10:38:39 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Why not make basic editing the same as with film? |
Because this is not a film photography website. Turn around to face the future so you can see film in your rear view mirror.
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11/09/2004 10:40:00 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I did one shot 12 times one day because a cat had walked over the erea and a tiny fine hair appeared in different places over and over again. |
How about around 400 times trying to find a perfect spot on a bottle of dish soap that wouldn't have any scratches, bumps and distortions? =)
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:43:52. |
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11/09/2004 10:41:24 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Why not make basic editing the same as with film? |
I worked in a lab for 4 years, and taught basic darkroom at an art school, and believe me, if there was dust on the neg, we cleaned it off before we displayed it.
If you bring your film to any reputable photoshop (not walmart, walgreens, etc...) they make an effort to make sure your photos are dust free.
and dust does not build up on the film plane. (random dust only, but not very often) it does build up on the CMOS, and sticks because of static electricity.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:43:50.
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11/09/2004 10:45:10 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Why not make basic editing the same as with film? |
Because this is not a film photography website. Turn around to face the future so you can see film in your rear view mirror. |
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remember that digital started to match and emulate film. It was film where it started. I have earned my spurs on both mediums but to call something basic editing which is not is questionable. The only reason I refer to the film it is because more talent is required to shoot a good picture.
A P.S. I have been using Photoshop since its inception. lol
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 22:47:04. |
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11/09/2004 10:54:53 PM · #15 |
I have no problems with the current basic editing rules, although I'd like it better if minor cloning were allowed. I just wanted to understand what makes you guys think that
1) All non-members are bumbling idiots who can't learn to use such a simple tool as Cloning in an image editor in a day or two? Oh by the way, it so happens that one "beginner", as you would put it, seems to be a finalist in National Geographic Channel photo competition.
2) All members are somehow advanced enough to do macros and nudes? If paying $25 will instantly make me an advanced photographer, then I've been a fool hanging around in this pitiful "non-member" status |
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11/09/2004 10:55:12 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Open Challenges under Basic Rules have been doing fine as they are. It ain't broke and doesn't need to be fixed. Do your clean-up in the Advanced Rules challenges. Basic is for beginners and many of them don't know how to use the clone tool and would be intimidated. You don't need an extra advantage to compete against these people. |
I believe this underestimates the capability of many of those competing in the open challenges. As more and more of the general DPC population migrate to DSLRs, this issue will be of interest to lots more folks. I never would have agreed until I started doing macro work with a DSLR, and as soon as I did, I understood.
The alternative, is, of course, to clean the sensor prior to shooting at small aperture (e.g. f/16 to f/32) but one really does not want to clean more often than really necessary. There's also the question of whether folks are more capable/comfortable with cloning out a couple small dust spots, or cleaning the sensor. I'd bet >99% will elect to clone a few spots, and delay cleaning until there are too many to effectively remove. |
It really comes down to the same old debate- do we change the site to keep up with the members as their skills grow, or do we keep part of it the same for the benefit of less skilled photographers. I think the constant flow of new users is the lifeblood of this site. And don't forget that we were all there at one time. For many of us this site is the primary means of moving forward from the novice stage. I like to think that I am past that stage but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be there. I hope that I can help make the same beneficial experience available for those who come after me.
Man, there sure is no shortage of ideas to change this site lately. I really don't think it is so bad off that we need to change so much stuff. Just be happy that this site is here and enjoy it as it is.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 23:40:40. |
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11/09/2004 11:10:36 PM · #17 |
I'd personally LOVE to have more basic challenges. I'd rather compete on the composition, and the feeling of the photo, than if this one pixel was one RGB point different. Or that distracting something, or shadow of something not in the scene was removed. I not only don't have the skills for that (though they're increasing) but that's part of the challenge of composition
Life isn't perfect, why should our scene's be.
Don't get me wrong, the advanced rules are still quite the challenge, and I'm working on these skills just to see if I can improve them, but having a basic rules for the same topic members challenges would be an interesting experiment on who enters where, and if people that aren't getting high scores improve. Maybe even doing the same thing in Open might bring the submissions down per challenge without really adding much voting...but that's a different thread.
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11/09/2004 11:13:56 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Oh by the way, it so happens that one "beginner", as you would put it, seems to be a finalist in National Geographic Channel photo competition. |
*shrug* that photo is ok, but i can't say it's an outstanding shot. I voted for a different one.
Originally posted by Tycho:
2) All members are somehow advanced enough to do macros and nudes? If paying $25 will instantly make me an advanced photographer, then I've been a fool hanging around in this pitiful "non-member" status |
Well, no. Although i would bet the number of beginners is higher in the non-member pool, i didn't mean to say that everyone who is a non-member is somehow deficient. Apologies for inadvertently expressing that.
I was just ranting that macro is hard to do well. And i do consider myself a newbie too, although i paid $25, so i seldom do macros once i realized that and don't do nudes at all. |
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11/09/2004 11:31:11 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
remember that digital started to match and emulate film. It was film where it started. I have earned my spurs on both mediums but to call something basic editing which is not is questionable. The only reason I refer to the film it is because more talent is required to shoot a good picture.
A P.S. I have been using Photoshop since its inception. lol |
Because of your deep background in film you will never be able to understand the new generation of photographers who never did and never will use a film camera. Do you think the younger people who get their music by downloading files from the internet and playing them back on iPods care about how much better a cassette was compared to an eight-track? Do you think they care about the fact that MP3 sound quality is not as good as CD or LP? It's a new deal going down out there, get used to it. |
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11/09/2004 11:42:40 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
remember that digital started to match and emulate film. It was film where it started. I have earned my spurs on both mediums but to call something basic editing which is not is questionable. The only reason I refer to the film it is because more talent is required to shoot a good picture.
A P.S. I have been using Photoshop since its inception. lol |
Because of your deep background in film you will never be able to understand the new generation of photographers who never did and never will use a film camera. Do you think the younger people who get their music by downloading files from the internet and playing them back on iPods care about how much better a cassette was compared to an eight-track? Do you think they care about the fact that MP3 sound quality is not as good as CD or LP? It's a new deal going down out there, get used to it. |
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You are right to a degree. What you are are saying is old wines in new bottles. You are saying that they do not know any better because the means has been removed. I like all new technology and when I want to listen to music with the best reproduction I do so in a system that is equiped to handle the entire audible range. It is just a matter of how refined your taste happens to be. I agree with you, there is a lot of ignorance as to what is good and bad and some people just do not care. They may even pause a moment if they hear a bose wave, but then they feel that it is too good for them. |
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