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by meyers

Comment by meyers:
PDF and OmanOtter, how about the two of you move this to an email disucssion or a forum.

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by meyers

Comment by PDF:

Originally posted by OmanOtter: PDF: You need to think about what you say. Those kinds of comments make you sound arrogant and bigoted.

People are entitled to their own opinions (such as whether a photograph is good or not), but not their own facts. The world is round whether you're christian, muslim, or hindu, and evolution is a fact. There IS a scientific consensus that homosexuality is not a choice and is something you're born with. If you want to debate any of those facts then fine, I can cite a statement signed by hundreds of pediatric, psychological, psychiatric, and other associations saying that, and some of the evidence that led them to that conclusion. Or we can talk about transitional fossils, molecular and structural evidence, nested hierarchies, etc... However, Your ad hominem attack really doesn't get us anywhere. And if you think I sound arrogant and bigoted simply because I'm saying that religion doesn't give you a free pass to believe anything regardless of the evidence, then fine. I'll be arrogant and bigoted.

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by meyers

Comment by OmanOtter:
PDF: You need to think about what you say. Those kinds of comments make you sound arrogant and bigoted.

Message edited by author 2007-03-18 07:32:20.

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by meyers

Comment by PDF:
If two billion muslims are creationists, they they ARE ignorant or just plain stupid. I don't care how many people there are or if they are divided by religious or cultural lines, anyone who does not accept evolution either does not know about the overwhelming evidence, or is just plain stupid. It's like believing the world is flat. Religion doesn't give you a free pass to believing flagrant lies.

I haven't heard about the uproar over the general's comments... I'll have to search.

There IS a scientific consensus that homosexuality is something you're born with. Look it up- all the major psychiatric, psychological, etc. associations all take the position that it is not a choice and is not "curable". Talk to biologists, and pretty much all of them will tell you it's a choice, etc. If you want we can continue the homosexuality debate (or any other debate :P) in e-mails.

As for the crossdressing entry... I rated it a 1 because I simply don't like it, and because I don't get the point it is trying to make. Maybe it is an attack, I don't know.

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by meyers

Comment by OmanOtter:
By the way, did you notice the crossdressing entry of the topless female doll with some sort of feathery loincloth thing hanging on the cross? Tell me THAT's not an attack. Probably brought on by my own comments here, though. But, if you tried that with Islam, you'd end up like Salman Rushdie. Try it with Judaeism and you're an anti-Semite. Try it with ... You get the point.

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by meyers

Comment by OmanOtter:
PDF: Evolution is an example, just a f&*%ing example. I chose it because it's in the news a lot lately because of the Kansas School Board. But, just so you know, you just called about 2 billion Muslims "ignorant or just plain stupid." Islam categorically does not accept evolution; some Christian sects do accept it, others do not. And there are a lot of really smart people among evolution's detractors (even if I disagree with them).

The point of including homosexuality in there among the other protected categories is ONLY that it's one of those very delicate subjects that can get you into trouble if you publicly espouse a controversial view. (Look at the current uproar over General Peter Pace's recent comments.) Now, the view you just espoused about it being something you're born with is socially safe, and might even be true. But you state it as if it has been scientifically-proven, which it has not. (And yet you call yourself "scientifically-minded.") But my point is, and has been, that there is an inequality over who and what can and cannot be criticized. And, in the U.S., it seems to me, Christianity is a very safe target.

I don't think I'm nitpicking; I think I'm pointing out duplicity.

I think we both talk too much, though. I'm sure the rest of the members of DPChallenge would love it if we would both just shut up and have this discussion on emails.

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by meyers

Comment by PDF:
lol. I'm very glad you accept evolution, but that doesn't really mean you're "very" scientific-minded. Only an ignorant or just plain stupid person would deny evolution. Not trying to argue about your scientific-mindedness or anything, I just think it's funny you chose that example :P.

I doubt I'd think twice before doing something similar with symbols of beliefs, but homosexuality is not a belief. It's not a choice, it's something you're born with. Criticizing homosexuality itself (not specific beliefs or acts) is a completely different matter, and WOULD be attacking the people themselves (it'd be like attacking "blackness" or "hispanicness") and I'd be against that.

Again, just nitpicking. I don't mean to imply you meant it that way, I just can't refrain from my rants :P

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by meyers

Comment by OmanOtter:
Sandstrider: Sorry about the Hippie comment, but that whole "judge like a child" comment was a bit too much. I've made the comment in other contexts that I will never buy into the idea that "art" is somehow above reproach. If someone posted a photo of child porn on the site, would you really judge it on its technical merits? I hope not. Did you know that Hitler and Saddam Hussein were artists? You probably know that "Al Rub al Khali" means "the Empty Quarter" in Arabic. It's called that because there's nothing there but sand and is very inhospitable to life. You'll find a few bedouins roaming it, but they're just passing through. You can't live there without tremendous support equipment (nor can I imagine why you'd want to); but it's worth a camping trip. India would be a cool trip. Everyone I know who's been there tells me that's its wonderful and horrible at the same time. Terribly filthy, but wonderfully exotic. The Middle East in general is not as bad as is shown on television, but it's not the kind of place you come to with a light-hearted approach, either.

PDF: I don't think we actually disagree on much. Criticize all the ideas you want. Go ahead and question the idea that prayer does anything more than act as a placebo. But I maintain my belief that this photo was directed specifically at Christians. Only Meyers knows what he was thinking when he took it. But I know what it looks like to me. I'm also very scientific-minded. For example, I accept evolution as a fact.

Meyers: Ok, I concede the point on the "stick in the rear end" thing. And I agree that not everyone will feel cultural attachment or identification with a religion whose beliefs they no longer share. There are certainly a lot of atheist Jews who do, though. And you might be surprised what connection you might feel if you left the West and came to a Muslim country where you do not have the freedoms you have in the West.

Everyone: I stand on this: I think you'd think twice before doing something similar with a symbol of, for example, Judaeism, Islam, Homosexuality or Kwaanza.

Everyone: I think we've beat this horse to death.

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by meyers

Comment by Sand-Strider:

Originally posted by OmanOtter: Sandstrider: You sound like a 60's hippie with the "judge like a child" stuff. Think about the implications of what you're saying: As long as it's done in a photographically-excellent way, the message doesn't matter. So, a photo that intentionally attacks or mocks a culture or group of people is just fine as long as it's well-executed or esthetically-pleasing?! Christians are certainly not "a known majority" in the country where I live, or any country anywhere near where I live. Do you ever get out of the United States?

Well, thanks for calling me a hippie, I like the 60's, but I missed them by being born 20 years late of '69. It's sad. This is a photography site, we are judging photography not religious beliefs. Yes I have been out of the U.S., sadly mostly to Europe though. I am planning on going to China though. I've always wanted to go to the middle east, or to India, but my parents won't let me. I love deserts. My reference to Christianity was not meant to be regionally-offending though, and for that I apologize. I meant on earth in general, and I didn't mean the majority, i meant a majority, as in one of the major faiths on earth. I can safely assume most of the people viewing this are Earth-borne, I cannot assume the are all residents of Oman.
On a lighter note, what's Rub' al-Khali like? It's near you and I've considered living there for a while.

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by meyers

Comment by PDF:
Interesting. Personally I am very scientifically minded, and love people to criticize (that's what I meant by "attack", for some reason I couldn't come up with the right word then) all ideas because criticism is what drives progress and stops stupidity. I realize a photograph isn't going to convey a very well thought out, point by point argument, but as you can see from the comments it does promote discussion :)... and it is EXACTLY for the reasons you have mentioned (some religious groups not wanting medical treatment but instead resort to prayer only) and things like them that ideas SHOULD be criticized. I think it's amoral NOT to criticize ideas that can lead to harm.

... but like I said, criticizing a whole group of people is another story...

Sometimes yes, religion is very deeply entwined with the culture and the people practicing it, but I don't think that's a valid argument for not criticizing the ideas. If we all impose censorship on ourselves just because people might feel a cultural attachment to certain ideas, then what CAN we criticize? people form groups and cultures around pretty much every political and other belief. Maybe not as strong as religious beliefs, but they're still there anyway.

I'm an atheist who was born in an extremely catholic country (Mexico), raised as a catholic, went to catholic school (it was terrible), and all my friends were catholic, but I don't feel at all culturally a member of that religious group.