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03/20/2009 04:55:13 PM · #1 |
Recently, we've had quite a few mothers of seniors saying "Well we can just copy them at home and print them out," or the REAL gem, "We can get copies made at Walmart." We do have marks on the back of our prints stating our business name so that they can't get them copied elsewhere, but what is a graceful way of telling these sleazebags, "These images are copyrighted. Copying them is against the law."
Do you have your clients sign a document stating that the rights of the images belong to you? What do you tell them to prevent this?
Thanks!! |
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03/20/2009 04:57:57 PM · #2 |
| No matter what you say or do, you really can't prevent it. They could also go home, scan it onto their computer, email to every relative and print them at home. Charge a little more to make up for it, or charge less so they buy more (volume). |
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03/20/2009 04:59:02 PM · #3 |
I completely understand that, I would just like to know a graceful way of telling them that that is against the law.
Should I mention it or just let it go? |
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03/20/2009 05:02:16 PM · #4 |
| You can mention it, but I believe most people in this day and age already know it. As long as they're marked Walmart won't print them for them. But they could easily go to a do it yourself machine as well. Some studios have a mark that only shows up when a photo is scanned to prevent it, but I don't know how they do it. |
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03/20/2009 05:09:57 PM · #5 |
While you are having them sign a contract/model release/other paper work you can have them read and initial another piece of paper that goes over policies on scanning and copyright. At least then they know it's wrong, however, they will still do what they want.
Another option is to get the prints printed with a texture. When they go to scan them, the quality is horrible. The downside is that not all textures look good on prints sized 5x7 and smaller. |
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03/20/2009 05:14:41 PM · #6 |
a graceful way might be to offer within your packages the rights to purchase the digital negative, or the rights to reproduce copies of the images from an original print.
That way you can give them the option to buy a release to print the images (that WalMart et al will accept) or get a CD with the digital version of the file at full resolution that again they can print wherever they like)
This has the added benefit of letting you explain that otherwise it is illegal to copy it, but at the same time doing it in a positive way by offering them the flexibility to buy it. Sure some people will think 'ha, I can just copy it for free! Muhahaha!' but at least they will be aware that it is illegal.
You get to enlighten your clients, and potentially more revenue. The downside is that your end product quality/ reputation is maybe in the hands of the printers at WalMart. |
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03/20/2009 05:18:36 PM · #7 |
| Some people are clueless (or simply don't care). I just got a menu from a new restaurant that opened down the street, and one of the photos has a very obvious "Getty Images" watermark right down the middle of it. This isn't a cheap color copy or inkjet print either, so not only did the restaurant ignore the copyright, so did the commercial offset printer. I'm tempted to send this to Getty in case they'd like to order a settlement for lunch. |
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03/20/2009 05:20:22 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
a graceful way might be to offer within your packages the rights to purchase the digital negative, or the rights to reproduce copies of the images from an original print.
That way you can give them the option to buy a release to print the images (that WalMart et al will accept) or get a CD with the digital version of the file at full resolution that again they can print wherever they like)
This has the added benefit of letting you explain that otherwise it is illegal to copy it, but at the same time doing it in a positive way by offering them the flexibility to buy it. Sure some people will think 'ha, I can just copy it for free! Muhahaha!' but at least they will be aware that it is illegal.
You get to enlighten your clients, and potentially more revenue. The downside is that your end product quality/ reputation is maybe in the hands of the printers at WalMart. |
We do offer a CD of the images that we sell at a larger price (for obvious reasons,) but in today's economy the price tags turns people off. By hey, at least the offer is on the table :) |
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03/20/2009 05:27:57 PM · #9 |
You talking like people in music business and you know how they doing. You have to assume that photos WILL be scanned, printed and emailed a lot and without your permission. Once you let them go, they are out of your control. From this point you have to build your business model. Charge per session fee, sell packages with prints and session fees, offer extra services, etc.
I actually do not have an answer to your question but just want to say that in the digital age you cannot prevent copying. All you can do is make it easier for customer to get it from you than to get it illegally some other way. |
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03/20/2009 05:31:35 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Some people are clueless (or simply don't care). I just got a menu from a new restaurant that opened down the street, and one of the photos has a very obvious "Getty Images" watermark right down the middle of it. This isn't a cheap color copy or inkjet print either, so not only did the restaurant ignore the copyright, so did the commercial offset printer. I'm tempted to send this to Getty in case they'd like to order a settlement for lunch. |
if it were me, the menu would already be on it's way .... |
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03/20/2009 05:43:11 PM · #11 |
I'm a jerk....I find the joy in taking the pictures.......I give my clients copyright rights because I do not believe in holding their photo's hostage.......9 out of 10 of them have me get them printed anyway...but than I'm a redneck and we do things different here =0)
As far as I know, if they are marked in any fashion Walmart will not print them with out a release from the photographer and they often question pictures that appear to be done in a studio..........I would think most other developers do the same. |
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03/20/2009 06:13:10 PM · #12 |
Depends on when you go to Walmart. I asked there once because  Kiwiness gave me one of his to print and I wondered if there would be a problem, since it's CLEARLY professional. She told me they wouldn't unless I came in on the evening shift with the workers that don't care.
I ended up doing it at Costco with no questions asked.
Message edited by author 2009-03-20 18:13:31. |
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03/20/2009 08:38:37 PM · #13 |
The bottom line is that you take what money you can get.....and be satisfied, or stew and let it eat you up.
I have long since accepted that people will not have the slightest concern or consideration for your rights or the legalities.
There are an awful lot of scenarios out there that are similar, so don't feel alone.
I can't tell you how often I had people call me at my shop, tell me that it costs too much to have me fix their car, and then ask me to tell them how to fix it themselves.
People are self-centered and inconsiderate everywhere.
So just count your lucky stars when you get people that are willing to treat you decently, and move on with the others.
The economy being what it is, anything in this business is considered to be frivolous and unnecessary, so if you're getting paid at all, that ain't bad.
You have to pick your battles, and with the competition what it is, do you really want to take too much of a hard line?
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03/20/2009 08:47:52 PM · #14 |
| When I shoot pictures for people, I generally charge a session fee for the shoot, which includes a CD with my edits on them in basic print sizes so they can have them printed wherever they want...so I include a copyright release. It's always been ludicrous to me what some photographers make off of the prints, and I don't want to be one of those people. Of course, I don't do it for a living so I am happy with just what I get for my time. If it was my sole source of income, I'd probably be singing a different tune. When my clients tell others about me, they usually mention the fact that I am reasonable and that they can print where they want, which keeps me busy enough. People are becoming more and more aware of the markup on prints and will be on the lookout to find the best deal. |
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03/20/2009 08:49:48 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The bottom line is that you take what money you can get.....and be satisfied, or stew and let it eat you up.
I have long since accepted that people will not have the slightest concern or consideration for your rights or the legalities.
There are an awful lot of scenarios out there that are similar, so don't feel alone.
I can't tell you how often I had people call me at my shop, tell me that it costs too much to have me fix their car, and then ask me to tell them how to fix it themselves.
People are self-centered and inconsiderate everywhere.
So just count your lucky stars when you get people that are willing to treat you decently, and move on with the others.
The economy being what it is, anything in this business is considered to be frivolous and unnecessary, so if you're getting paid at all, that ain't bad.
You have to pick your battles, and with the competition what it is, do you really want to take too much of a hard line? |
I personally love people all kinds of people.....and see the good in them and do anythin I can to make them happy and do not consider the fact that they want a good deal to make them self centered and inconsiderate.. I was a beautician as well and have had many folks ask me what they should do....and realized that is just human nature....they are not necessarily out to jip me maybe they are trying to flatery me by asking my opinion.....
this got off track...........
raise your prices and be thrilled and flattered that someone likes your work enough to want to get it duplicated..... |
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03/20/2009 10:39:54 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The bottom line is that you take what money you can get.....and be satisfied, or stew and let it eat you up.
I have long since accepted that people will not have the slightest concern or consideration for your rights or the legalities.
There are an awful lot of scenarios out there that are similar, so don't feel alone.
I can't tell you how often I had people call me at my shop, tell me that it costs too much to have me fix their car, and then ask me to tell them how to fix it themselves.
People are self-centered and inconsiderate everywhere.
So just count your lucky stars when you get people that are willing to treat you decently, and move on with the others.
The economy being what it is, anything in this business is considered to be frivolous and unnecessary, so if you're getting paid at all, that ain't bad.
You have to pick your battles, and with the competition what it is, do you really want to take too much of a hard line? |
Originally posted by Pikkel:
I personally love people all kinds of people.....and see the good in them and do anythin I can to make them happy and do not consider the fact that they want a good deal to make them self centered and inconsiderate.. I was a beautician as well and have had many folks ask me what they should do....and realized that is just human nature....they are not necessarily out to jip me maybe they are trying to flatery me by asking my opinion.....
this got off track...........
raise your prices and be thrilled and flattered that someone likes your work enough to want to get it duplicated..... |
My point was not that ALL people are like that......just that it is very common that people do not think of the ramifications of what photographers consider outright thievery.
Just an observation and not an outright condemnation of the human race.
Don't read too much into it....
As I stated above:
So just count your lucky stars when you get people that are willing to treat you decently, and move on with the others.
The economy being what it is, anything in this business is considered to be frivolous and unnecessary, so if you're getting paid at all, that ain't bad.
You have to pick your battles, and with the competition what it is, do you really want to take too much of a hard line?
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03/20/2009 11:58:04 PM · #17 |
| and loving what you deo means a lot |
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03/21/2009 12:31:57 AM · #18 |
i have a similar problem with people at my school. they all insist on hacking the server i have my photos on and taking them to post on lockers, posters, whatever. if they just asked id be fine with it most likely. i might even pick out the best photos for them. the incident that really pissed me off was when this girl who asked me to copy all my basketball photos onto cds for her so she could give the photos as birhday gifts. that made me very angry, but i just decided to include my name and copyright on the bottom corner of the photos
maybe you could jsut throw a complicated copyright and name at the bottom so they cant clone it out too easily(sorry if thats been suggested) |
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03/21/2009 12:48:21 AM · #19 |
| Don't they sometimes print on paper that has dimples in it so when the scanner tries to scan the photos all the dimples light up from the scanner light and it makes the photo very difficult to scan? I remember working at Ritz and getting some (usually older) photos with this texture and they were very difficult to get a decent scan from. |
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03/21/2009 09:08:34 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Pikkel:
and loving what you do means a lot |
Yeah.....it certainly does!
I guess I'm screwball, but I know when I was the semi-official team photographer for my daughter's cheerleading team, I was just so happy to provide timeless memories to some of the parents who wouldn't have otherwise had them that I just didn't get all that excited about the money.
It was a wonderful chapter in my daughter's, and my, life and we had a wonderful two years.....so I didn't get paid for a few prints that will provide happy memories for a long time, big deal. I did get paid for most, and in some cases, more than I needed......and I have the undying gratitude of some wonderful people that I was happy to share time with.
I was there anyway, I was shooting for my own pleasure and posterity, so it wasn't like I was making any special concessions.
It was ALL good!
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03/21/2009 09:33:10 AM · #21 |
Don't do printed proofs. It hurts you in every way possible. Do projection proofing. It costs $800 to get started (projector and software) and you will TRIPLE your average sale. And you don't have to spend money on proofs, time on making the proofs, etc.
It takes no more time, and perhaps less time, to do projection sales as it does printed proofs (you can't just hand them a proof book - you have to explain your process, pricing and then do the order when (if) they come back).
Get your money up front with the sale and then don't worry about it. For seniors i give them a web size file for every pose they buy so they're less likely to try and scan - they got prints and files and they're done. If they need files then they'll scan to get them then they're close to being able to print...
Last thing is you need different customers. There are two kinds - those with more time than money (they WILL steal from you) and those with more money than time - they will buy rather than steal.
Marketing is like fishing - you are looking for customers and like fishing, you want to reel in the Big One, the Whale. If you don't have enough Whales, change your bait or your fishing hole or go fishing more often.
That is the advice I just paid $800 for and spend a week learning (among other things, like specifically how to do that). This from a studio that has had sales over over $1 million a year for the past 10 years and shoots 500+ seniors a year, at an average of $1100 per senior. Yeah, there are 4500 other seniors that go elsewhere and spend $275 and steal the proofs. So what? They're not his concern. They need not be your concern either - just go find great clients!
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03/24/2009 08:57:27 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
That is the advice I just paid $800 for and spend a week learning (among other things, like specifically how to do that). This from a studio that has had sales over over $1 million a year for the past 10 years and shoots 500+ seniors a year, at an average of $1100 per senior. Yeah, there are 4500 other seniors that go elsewhere and spend $275 and steal the proofs. So what? They're not his concern. They need not be your concern either - just go find great clients! |
Will someone freakin' listen to this guy, he's talking sense!
And you're listening for free!!
:-P |
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