| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/10/2008 03:34:12 AM · #1 |
Hey people :) Can someone tell me what the deal is with not being able to take a photo at more than 1/200 when I use my flash/studio lights?? And I know it can be done as I've seen it in studio shots here on this site, for example Larus's shallow DOF studio portrait in the newest Free Study and of course, most, if not all of IreneM's splash shots (taken at 1/500 or 1/800)and I can't imagine that being taken with natural light :S Thought about drilling them personally for answers, but this is more subtle ;) Anyways, are they using something other than a flash to control the studio lights?? I've only had mine for a couple of months and Im still experimenting, but this flaw really kills me cause I photograph a lot of kids and when they're jumping and waving their arms and all that jazz...well, thats just not working at 1/200 :( Also, just not being able to use a large aperture really sucks and I think it somehow must be possible...
|
|
|
|
12/10/2008 04:23:39 AM · #2 |
Some cameras use different shutter mechanisims that allow flash synch at higher speeds, most SLR's however are limited to something between 1/200 - 1/300, as you've noticed. One way to freeze motion with flash is to limit the effect of ambient light. Most flashes have a very short duration (1/500 - 1/3200 or so), so even if you shoot at 1/60 (or 2 sec. for that matter) action will appear frozen as long as the ambient light doesn't leave trails. So try using your studio lights at full or near-full power, while turning off any room lights and closing/covering windows.
Another option would be to use E-TTL compatable speedlights with high-speed sync enabled. This won't work with studio lights, however. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 04:47:33 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by nickp37:
Another option would be to use E-TTL compatable speedlights with high-speed sync enabled. This won't work with studio lights, however. |
This leads to the question, how Speed-sync is enabled (if available) at Canon cameras...? |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 04:59:39 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by eyewave:
Originally posted by nickp37:
Another option would be to use E-TTL compatable speedlights with high-speed sync enabled. This won't work with studio lights, however. |
This leads to the question, how Speed-sync is enabled (if available) at Canon cameras...? |
It's just a single button on the 580 EX II (looks like ">>>"), and the Sigma DG 500 Super (+ or -), don't know about other flashes...
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 07:18:54. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 07:17:18 AM · #5 |
You might find the information in this tutorial useful. Yes, it's about hummingbirds, but it's also about how to stop incredibly fast motion.
ETA: Depending on how much of an increase you're looking for, you may be able to just manually set your exposure. On my D300, combined with an old Vivitar flash I've got, I can set the speed faster than 1/250 (my sync speed) if I manually set my exposure, without achieving a vignette. It's only a step or two higher, but depending upon your application this may or may not make a difference. Different flashes will have different speeds you will be able to get up to before this happens, but it's worth experimenting to determine. Also, if you find that a vignette wouldn't be damaging to your composition, you can use that to your advantage.
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 07:27:46. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 09:26:27 AM · #6 |
| If you want to stop motion with your studio strobes and you're having problems with motion blur, the problem is not with your strobes. First, do you have the room lights on? What's the ratio of that ambient exposure to the strobe? Turning the room lights down or off will help. Second, are you shooting at full power? You don't mention what strobes you own, but a common way to control the power is by varying the duration of the flash pulse. At lower power, you get a correspondingly shorter pulse, which will freeze the action much better. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 09:29:50 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want to stop motion with your studio strobes and you're having problems with motion blur, the problem is not with your strobes. First, do you have the room lights on? What's the ratio of that ambient exposure to the strobe? Turning the room lights down or off will help. Second, are you shooting at full power? You don't mention what strobes you own, but a common way to control the power is by varying the duration of the flash pulse. At lower power, you get a correspondingly shorter pulse, which will freeze the action much better. |
Actually it could be the strobes. Some/most cheap strobes actually have very long flash durations and will cause this. I know my first set of strobes I had would not actually freeze action in the studio because their flash duration was actually 1/320 or something like that. My AB's are 1/2000 and this varies depending on the power they are set on.
Matt
|
|
|
|
12/10/2008 11:36:48 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want to stop motion with your studio strobes and you're having problems with motion blur, the problem is not with your strobes. First, do you have the room lights on? What's the ratio of that ambient exposure to the strobe? Turning the room lights down or off will help. Second, are you shooting at full power? You don't mention what strobes you own, but a common way to control the power is by varying the duration of the flash pulse. At lower power, you get a correspondingly shorter pulse, which will freeze the action much better. |
Actually it could be the strobes. Some/most cheap strobes actually have very long flash durations and will cause this. I know my first set of strobes I had would not actually freeze action in the studio because their flash duration was actually 1/320 or something like that. My AB's are 1/2000 and this varies depending on the power they are set on.
Matt |
It's also important to know which duration the manufacturer is reporting. AB's and other manufacturers use what's referred to as the "t 0.1" measurement, which is the time it takes for the light output to drop 90%, or roughly 3 stops. That's the 1/2000 you get for your AB400.
Other manufacturers, usually those selling cheaper equipment, report the "t 0.5" measurement, which is the time it takes for the light output to drop 50% or 1 stop. (They also might use a "t0.3" measurement) As you would expect, these durations appear much shorter, however, light one stop below your main source will still affect your exposure. As an example of how different these numbers can be, the AB400's "t0.5" duration is 1/6000. Oddly enough, the duration on the AB's increases as the power decreases, the opposite of how many other strobe units behave.
To get really short durations though (water drop splash freezing durations) you'll be better served by using a regular flash unit on its lowest power setting as those durations can be an order of magnitude (or more) shorter than those found in studio strobes.
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 11:38:59. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 12:13:21 PM · #9 |
Generally (like 95%) shutter speed with studio strobes is 1/125. And F8 or so it what most seem to shoot at. I prefer shallower DOF in most cases so turn down the flash and open the aperture. By turning down the flash power you also get faster recycle times so you can shoot just about as fast as you can hit the button (at least I can)
Shutter speed controls how much ambient light is recorded. The slower the shutter the more ambient. Fine for some some things but it also allows mixed light/color, so the rule is you want your exposure to be about 3 stops (or more) over the ambient reading so that 100% of the exposure is coming from your strobes.
You may not be able to turn your strobes down low enoough to get 2.8 if you're using direct flash. Using bounce will help, or a softbox or perhaps umbrella. You can add diffusion material or ND filters on the flash as well.
If shooting natural light and you want frozen kids you can add some flash, keep the shutter above 1/250 (up the ISO if needed) or shoot in drive mode (no flash of course).
My old studio was dark, a real hole that ate the light so my issue was trying to get enoug of it. The new studio is all white and has a ceiling and now I have issues making it dark enough (controlling light bounce). Point being -you'll never be happy :P
What focal length are you shooting with? A longer lens will give a shallower dof than a wide angle one. So back up and use a tele lens at the same shutter/aperture and that will help throw the BG OOF some. If you can back up that is.
this is 1/60 at F4 at 400 around 70-100 mm focal length, with strobes. //www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/106323967.jpg
I shoot a lot of pets around the holidays and they're all shot at 1/125 and I never get motion blur //www.pbase.com/cpphotography/pets_ports but the strobes are 3 or 4 stops over ambient so the flash duration is really what's freezing them.
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 12:18:54.
|
|
|
|
12/10/2008 12:18:51 PM · #10 |
Shutter speed shouldn't matter, as long as you're not getting any ambient light into the shot. The first thing to check is to see how much ambient light is getting into the shot. Set the the aperture, shutter speed, and ISO as you would normally. Then take a shot with the strobes turned off. The picture should be completely black. If it isn't, then you've got an ambient light problem. Either reduce your aperture, ISO, or the ambient light level.
Once the ambient is out of the equation, if you're still getting motion blur, then it's the strobes. You'll either need better studio strobes, or go the Strobist route. |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 01:05:19 PM · #11 |
Thank you all for great answers...although, simple as I am, I could just barely get the gist of a lot of it, Im not too good with the technical side of photography, I'm more the experimental type that just shoots and hopes for the best :P buuuut...
Yeah, there is a big window in the studio covered with a white curtain...maybe I'll draw the blinds... still, when the flash doesnt get to charge before I shoot again, the picture is completely black (Well, I can see the outlines of the subject if I jack up the exposure and brightness in RAW and take down the contrast...not sure if that counts). And I generally have the lights set at about 1/3 power since I really dont want to blind the children...and yes, they are relatively cheap lights...the economy in Iceland is...well..not good ;)
I'm still not all that sure what I have to do or if its at all possible to up the shutter speed (because I'm not saying the result is not good enough if the shutter speed is more than 1/200, I'm saying its physically impossible to try it out :( )
So to sum it up...could you possibly dumb things down a shade?? :( |
|
|
|
12/10/2008 01:14:52 PM · #12 |
With studio lighting, the flash sync is dependant on your camera and the lights, or the type of sync you are using.
My 1DMKIII has a flash sync of 1/300 I can sync up to 1/320 with my Cybersyncs and my Alien Bees or my 580EXII.
With my 1DMKIIn I can sync at 1/250 before I get the little black bar.
My 5D would only sync at 1/200.
The actual duration of your strobe along with additional ambient light that is let in will determine the amount of blur(if any) that you get in your photo. duration of the flash is determined by how fast it goes on and then off to the point that you are under what light is emitted to give you a dark frame. Cheaper strobes dont go on and off as quickly as you might think. Just because its a quick flash, what you see in the brightest part is not all the light it lets off. It doesnt go full on and full off instantly, its light when you turn off a bulb, actually watch it and you will see it doesnt go from full light to absolute black immediately. It takes a bit to actually go all the way off. I hope this helps you understand.
Matt
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 01:26:12 AM · #13 |
| Hey MattO, the description for those CS's says they can sync "on cameras capable of fast sync" up to 1/2500. So does this mean that with a dedicated flash capable of fast sync'ing you can do this, or that your camera must be able to sync at that speed on its own? |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 09:28:13 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Hey MattO, the description for those CS's says they can sync "on cameras capable of fast sync" up to 1/2500. So does this mean that with a dedicated flash capable of fast sync'ing you can do this, or that your camera must be able to sync at that speed on its own? |
The sync speed of the camera is a limit of the mechanical/electronic shutter mechanism. So yes the Cybersyncs will sync up to the speed they indicate, but only if your cameras shutter mechanism can.
Matt
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 01:44:37 PM · #15 |
Okay, dumbing things down a shade, I hope....
I think the fastest sync speed on your camera is 1/200. You can try a faster shutter speed and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'll know because part of the shot will be black.
There are things like high-speed sync on some cameras, but a) I don't think yours has this, and b) it will only work with Canon flashes. So you're stuck with 1/200.
If the room isn't dark enough for the picture without the strobes to be completely black, then you need to draw the blinds.
If the picture you took with the strobes turned off is completely black, then the problem is with strobes flashing slowly. Usually, with most strobes, the flash is short enough that it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, because the subject is only lit for a very short time. My understanding from what others have said here is some cheap studio strobes flash slowly enough that you can still get motion blur. There are really only two ways to fix this. Either get different strobes, or nail the kids to the floor.
If you're looking for a cost effective replacement for the cheap studio strobes, you might try some small, hotshoe mounted flashes. Strobist has infinite detail on this route.
|
|
|
|
12/12/2008 02:09:05 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Okay, dumbing things down a shade, I hope....
I think the fastest sync speed on your camera is 1/200. You can try a faster shutter speed and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'll know because part of the shot will be black.
There are things like high-speed sync on some cameras, but a) I don't think yours has this, and b) it will only work with Canon flashes. So you're stuck with 1/200.
If the room isn't dark enough for the picture without the strobes to be completely black, then you need to draw the blinds.
If the picture you took with the strobes turned off is completely black, then the problem is with strobes flashing slowly. Usually, with most strobes, the flash is short enough that it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, because the subject is only lit for a very short time. My understanding from what others have said here is some cheap studio strobes flash slowly enough that you can still get motion blur. There are really only two ways to fix this. Either get different strobes, or nail the kids to the floor.
If you're looking for a cost effective replacement for the cheap studio strobes, you might try some small, hotshoe mounted flashes. Strobist has infinite detail on this route. |
Basically, the bold thing is all I'm talking about...(not that I dont appreciate the other stuff, but still, I dont think I've got my answer yet)... the thing is I CANT try out a faster shutter speed because the camera wont go any faster than 1/200 when the flash is connected... so yeah...all I'm asking is...can I somehow get my camera to work the way it does when the flash is not connected? Like, could I take a photograph with 1/4000 with the flash connected?? I know there will be nothing to see in that photo...but is that setting possible regardless of the results? |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 02:10:22 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Originally posted by Ann:
Okay, dumbing things down a shade, I hope....
I think the fastest sync speed on your camera is 1/200. You can try a faster shutter speed and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'll know because part of the shot will be black.
There are things like high-speed sync on some cameras, but a) I don't think yours has this, and b) it will only work with Canon flashes. So you're stuck with 1/200.
If the room isn't dark enough for the picture without the strobes to be completely black, then you need to draw the blinds.
If the picture you took with the strobes turned off is completely black, then the problem is with strobes flashing slowly. Usually, with most strobes, the flash is short enough that it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, because the subject is only lit for a very short time. My understanding from what others have said here is some cheap studio strobes flash slowly enough that you can still get motion blur. There are really only two ways to fix this. Either get different strobes, or nail the kids to the floor.
If you're looking for a cost effective replacement for the cheap studio strobes, you might try some small, hotshoe mounted flashes. Strobist has infinite detail on this route. |
Basically, the bold thing is all I'm talking about...(not that I dont appreciate the other stuff, but still, I dont think I've got my answer yet)... the thing is I CANT try out a faster shutter speed because the camera wont go any faster than 1/200 when the flash is connected... so yeah...all I'm asking is...can I somehow get my camera to work the way it does when the flash is not connected? Like, could I take a photograph with 1/4000 with the flash connected?? I know there will be nothing to see in that photo...but is that setting possible regardless of the results? |
Have you tried shooting in Manual? |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 02:20:15 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Originally posted by Ann:
Okay, dumbing things down a shade, I hope....
I think the fastest sync speed on your camera is 1/200. You can try a faster shutter speed and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'll know because part of the shot will be black.
There are things like high-speed sync on some cameras, but a) I don't think yours has this, and b) it will only work with Canon flashes. So you're stuck with 1/200.
If the room isn't dark enough for the picture without the strobes to be completely black, then you need to draw the blinds.
If the picture you took with the strobes turned off is completely black, then the problem is with strobes flashing slowly. Usually, with most strobes, the flash is short enough that it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, because the subject is only lit for a very short time. My understanding from what others have said here is some cheap studio strobes flash slowly enough that you can still get motion blur. There are really only two ways to fix this. Either get different strobes, or nail the kids to the floor.
If you're looking for a cost effective replacement for the cheap studio strobes, you might try some small, hotshoe mounted flashes. Strobist has infinite detail on this route. |
Basically, the bold thing is all I'm talking about...(not that I dont appreciate the other stuff, but still, I dont think I've got my answer yet)... the thing is I CANT try out a faster shutter speed because the camera wont go any faster than 1/200 when the flash is connected... so yeah...all I'm asking is...can I somehow get my camera to work the way it does when the flash is not connected? Like, could I take a photograph with 1/4000 with the flash connected?? I know there will be nothing to see in that photo...but is that setting possible regardless of the results? |
Have you tried shooting in Manual? |
Yes, I only shoot in manual :) If I use shutter priority, the photo is always too dark for some reason :S |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 04:30:31 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Originally posted by Ann:
Okay, dumbing things down a shade, I hope....
I think the fastest sync speed on your camera is 1/200. You can try a faster shutter speed and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'll know because part of the shot will be black.
There are things like high-speed sync on some cameras, but a) I don't think yours has this, and b) it will only work with Canon flashes. So you're stuck with 1/200.
If the room isn't dark enough for the picture without the strobes to be completely black, then you need to draw the blinds.
If the picture you took with the strobes turned off is completely black, then the problem is with strobes flashing slowly. Usually, with most strobes, the flash is short enough that it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, because the subject is only lit for a very short time. My understanding from what others have said here is some cheap studio strobes flash slowly enough that you can still get motion blur. There are really only two ways to fix this. Either get different strobes, or nail the kids to the floor.
If you're looking for a cost effective replacement for the cheap studio strobes, you might try some small, hotshoe mounted flashes. Strobist has infinite detail on this route. |
Basically, the bold thing is all I'm talking about...(not that I dont appreciate the other stuff, but still, I dont think I've got my answer yet)... the thing is I CANT try out a faster shutter speed because the camera wont go any faster than 1/200 when the flash is connected... so yeah...all I'm asking is...can I somehow get my camera to work the way it does when the flash is not connected? Like, could I take a photograph with 1/4000 with the flash connected?? I know there will be nothing to see in that photo...but is that setting possible regardless of the results? |
Have you tried shooting in Manual? |
Yes, I only shoot in manual :) If I use shutter priority, the photo is always too dark for some reason :S |
Can you set the speed lower?
I suspect that the camera has a built-in "safety" to keep you from setting the shutter speed faster than the sync speed when it detects a flash or strobe. |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 04:34:26 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Hey people :) Can someone tell me what the deal is with not being able to take a photo at more than 1/200 when I use my flash/studio lights?? And I know it can be done as I've seen it in studio shots here on this site, for example Larus's shallow DOF studio portrait in the newest Free Study and of course, most, if not all of IreneM's splash shots (taken at 1/500 or 1/800)and I can't imagine that being taken with natural light :S Thought about drilling them personally for answers, but this is more subtle ;) Anyways, are they using something other than a flash to control the studio lights?? I've only had mine for a couple of months and Im still experimenting, but this flaw really kills me cause I photograph a lot of kids and when they're jumping and waving their arms and all that jazz...well, thats just not working at 1/200 :( Also, just not being able to use a large aperture really sucks and I think it somehow must be possible... |
1) Laurus used a Canon 1Ds Mark III which has a max. sync speed of 1/250s
2) IreneM uses a Nikon D50 which has a max. sync speed of 1/500s.
Your XTi has a max. sync speed of 1/200s which is probably what you are limited to. It all has to do with how fast the shutter curtains move and is explained here
You are able do do high speed syncing with nikon or canon speedlights which is what IreneM probably did to get 1/800s. High speed syncing is explained here.
Hope this helps. |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 04:38:29 PM · #21 |
With my Speedlite I can go up to a shutterspeed of 1/4000 (I believe, not sure, but very fast), without getting black edges.
This photo is made with that one:
Maybe that's the answer? Dunno?
(deleted one photo, I thought it was a faster shutterspeed, but it was "just" 1/200 ;))
Message edited by author 2008-12-12 16:42:05. |
|
|
|
12/12/2008 06:21:14 PM · #22 |
I don't know about your model of camera, so I can't tell you how to set your shutter speed faster than 1/200.
I've taken stop motion pictures of hummingbirds in flight at 1/180. I don't think you need a shutter speed faster than 1/200. What you may need is different strobes.
|
|
|
|
12/12/2008 07:55:28 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by rmezzo:
Originally posted by jodis_eva:
Hey people :) Can someone tell me what the deal is with not being able to take a photo at more than 1/200 when I use my flash/studio lights?? And I know it can be done as I've seen it in studio shots here on this site, for example Larus's shallow DOF studio portrait in the newest Free Study and of course, most, if not all of IreneM's splash shots (taken at 1/500 or 1/800)and I can't imagine that being taken with natural light :S Thought about drilling them personally for answers, but this is more subtle ;) Anyways, are they using something other than a flash to control the studio lights?? I've only had mine for a couple of months and Im still experimenting, but this flaw really kills me cause I photograph a lot of kids and when they're jumping and waving their arms and all that jazz...well, thats just not working at 1/200 :( Also, just not being able to use a large aperture really sucks and I think it somehow must be possible... |
1) Laurus used a Canon 1Ds Mark III which has a max. sync speed of 1/250s
2) IreneM uses a Nikon D50 which has a max. sync speed of 1/500s.
Your XTi has a max. sync speed of 1/200s which is probably what you are limited to. It all has to do with how fast the shutter curtains move and is explained here
You are able do do high speed syncing with nikon or canon speedlights which is what IreneM probably did to get 1/800s. High speed syncing is explained here.
Hope this helps. |
Hehehe yeah...as I suspected, it was one button hahaha! Thank you so much...and thank you everyone with the fancy explanations...but unfortunately, Im dumb as a post and yeah...I didnt even know what "maximum sinc speed" was until I read those articles :D Anyways, Im gonna go take an Irene M shot...*cough* yeah right... |
|
