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05/24/2008 10:25:47 PM · #1
So I've got an 'eye one calibrator' now, my colors are fine and dandy but now and I'm having even more trouble when saving for web/ saving and putting images on the web. Trying to upload both old and new photos to a new site I'm working on and having problems when resizing and saving them now...

I have my images the way I want them to look in Photoshop. When I export the picture either in save for web, or just save it the image appears fine but when viewed on a browser, the blacks in the image completely flatten out and go much darker. Even in the "Save for web" window it looks fine, it's just as soon as I bring it on a browser it messes up. (firefox, safari, whatever... all the same result). The weird thing is, when I reopen the file in photoshop it appears the way I like it...

I've had problems like this before that I have fixed because of my gamma, but this one is beyond me. I have my color settings to sRGB 2.1 and North American general purpose 2, with my proof settings off. My monitor gamma is at 2.2 windows standard, using Mac. I am also trying to export both using ICC profiles on and off, and even just a "save as" strips the profile...

Is this just that browsers do not read ICC profiles, or am I doing something wrong? Can any body get web images looking exactly how they see them in photoshop?

here are some screen shots of what I mean. image on the left is the file in photoshop while on the right is in a browser. particularily the darks in the monks robe and the change in the sky.... very slight but makes me very confused!

Example 1

Example 2
05/24/2008 11:49:18 PM · #2
I believe that browsers ignore embedded profiles and assume sRGB.

One thing you should always try when having color shifts is to open the file with your browser while it's still on your disk, before uploading; there have been rare occasions where the web hosting site will alter the file as part of the upload process.
05/25/2008 01:05:36 AM · #3
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:


Is this just that browsers do not read ICC profiles, or am I doing something wrong? Can any body get web images looking exactly how they see them in photoshop?


The only way I can get the images to look exactly the same in PS and browsers is to turn on "Proof Colors" and use the View->Proof Setup->Monitor RGB. I thought PS was supposed to use Monitor RGB as the default anyway, but for some reason my Mac running CS3 2.2 Gamma is using something else (slightly lighter) I'm guessing there is a global color management setting that I haven't found yet or it is a bug in PS. Also, turn on "Enable Color Management in Bridge" in Bridge->Preferences. I think Bridge does the color management for PS and other Adobe programs. When I first turned this on it cured everything, but now it is back to abnormal.
Also,you will probably have most Mac users viewing your site using 1.8 Gamma and your web photos will look washed out to them (lighter). You might have to compromise and proof your web stuff in both Mac and Windows RGB before you upload it.
05/25/2008 01:19:08 AM · #4
Safari by default and Firefox with a setting change will honor imbedded profiles.
05/25/2008 01:25:29 AM · #5
This may sound silly, but double check the color space on your images. I know you said you have your color setting for sRGB, but it's possible the image game into photoshop with Adobe RGB and you didn't get the warning. If the image is in a different color space, change the image to sRGB before doing save for web. Every time I have ran into the problem you described it was because the image was in another color space right before I did save for web.

If possible, I would recommend editing in Adobe RGB or an even broader color space and then convert to sRGB right before save for web. Don't same the original as sRGB, you may want the wider gamut for printing later.

As to web browsers reading ICC profiles, Safari does on mac and PC. Firefox and IE don't on a PC. I'm not sure what firefox does on a mac. Browsers that don't read ICC profiles assume sRGB.
05/25/2008 05:22:44 AM · #6
Firefox 3 reads ICC profiles and I believe IE7 can with tweaking.
05/25/2008 12:40:14 PM · #7
TO ENABLE COLORMANAGEMENT in Firefox 3 both MAC and Windows, type about:config into the address bar. To turn it on, change the value of gfx.color_management.enabled to true and restart the Fire Fox browser.
05/25/2008 12:51:12 PM · #8
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

This may sound silly, but double check the color space on your images...


Not silly at all, and probably the source of the issue. If the camera, or the RAW converter is setting to, for instance, Adobe RGB, the "North American General Puropse 2" group of settings will *not* convert to the sRGB working space by default. Editing in the wider gamut space is OK, but the image will then need to be explicitly converted to sRGB prior to Save for Web.
Although some browsers can be configured to respect embedded profiles, never rely on this because:
- The majority of web users do not have profile-sensitive browsers
- You cannot count on the profile data being retained by any given website
05/25/2008 10:36:25 PM · #9
Originally posted by pointandshoot:

Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:


Is this just that browsers do not read ICC profiles, or am I doing something wrong? Can any body get web images looking exactly how they see them in photoshop?


The only way I can get the images to look exactly the same in PS and browsers is to turn on "Proof Colors" and use the View->Proof Setup->Monitor RGB. I thought PS was supposed to use Monitor RGB as the default anyway, but for some reason my Mac running CS3 2.2 Gamma is using something else (slightly lighter) I'm guessing there is a global color management setting that I haven't found yet or it is a bug in PS. Also, turn on "Enable Color Management in Bridge" in Bridge->Preferences. I think Bridge does the color management for PS and other Adobe programs. When I first turned this on it cured everything, but now it is back to abnormal.
Also,you will probably have most Mac users viewing your site using 1.8 Gamma and your web photos will look washed out to them (lighter). You might have to compromise and proof your web stuff in both Mac and Windows RGB before you upload it.

Even after converting profiles, I still have the problem but I think I know why-

So typically when editing for the web I should have "proof colors" enabled to guide me? Do people usually do this? I now have calibrated my monitor and I have set the proofing to "monitor color". This seems to give me a pretty accurate depiction of how they look on the web. If I edit with proof colors enabled, then does that mean that my files for prints look more like when it is turned off? I do use the ICC profiles of the printing company that I normally print with...

What confuses me is that before I switched to editing with my mac desktop my files looked the same throughout all conversions and I never had to worry about this. My guess is that "proof colors" was enabled already and I just didn't notice it?

Another thing that confuses me is even my older files from my windows computer go through this color/gamma jump when opened, resized and saved again...
05/25/2008 11:07:27 PM · #10
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:


Even after converting profiles, I still have the problem but I think I know why-

So typically when editing for the web I should have "proof colors" enabled to guide me? Do people usually do this? I now have calibrated my monitor and I have set the proofing to "monitor color". This seems to give me a pretty accurate depiction of how they look on the web. If I edit with proof colors enabled, then does that mean that my files for prints look more like when it is turned off? I do use the ICC profiles of the printing company that I normally print with...

What confuses me is that before I switched to editing with my mac desktop my files looked the same throughout all conversions and I never had to worry about this. My guess is that "proof colors" was enabled already and I just didn't notice it?

Another thing that confuses me is even my older files from my windows computer go through this color/gamma jump when opened, resized and saved again...


I use Proof Colors for both printing and the web. I doubt your old computer had Proof Colors enabled since there is no way of making that enabled by default as far as I'm aware of. Those old files are probably just a bit too dark for the monitor you're now viewing them on which is more calibrated. Even if you edited them originally on your calibrated monitor it may still look slightly different on another monitor. That's just the nature of the beast. Each monitor produces colors differently. Unless everyone has the same monitor and the same calibrated equipment there will always be slight differences as to how people view your stuff online. The best you can do is to avoid having critical detail in your deepest shadows and lightest highlights and that way more monitors will see the data even if some run a little too bright or dark. Printing has the same problem but at least you can tailor the output to the exact printer you are going to use where as on the web you can't do that.

ETA: Brad corrected me in regards to enabling proofing. You can enable proofing so that it is on when the program loads but it's not something you'd have accidently setup since it's a little more involved then clicking a checkbox.

Message edited by author 2008-05-25 23:53:00.
05/26/2008 12:36:43 AM · #11
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:


So typically when editing for the web I should have "proof colors" enabled to guide me? Do people usually do this? I now have calibrated my monitor and I have set the proofing to "monitor color". This seems to give me a pretty accurate depiction of how they look on the web.


Remember, though, that is how they look on the web when viewed with YOUR calibrated monitor. As others have mentioned, the slight gamma shift you were seeing is probably pretty minor compared to the differences others are seeing on their monitors. If you proof it with your calibrated monitor you are doing the best you can do. I still don't know why CS3 on Mac is using a slightly different gamma than the default system monitor to view files. It was my understanding the monitor profile was the default. Maybe it is using the monitor Native Gamma? Don't know. I'm sure there is a color management setting somewhere I am missing. Anyway, as long as you are proofing with your Monitor RGB you should be OK. The Windows RGB should also be close to your Monitor RGB and is handy to see how your file would look on a typical Window monitor. I wouldn't worry too much about Macintosh RGB since the 1.8 gamma may not be used much anymore.

05/26/2008 11:43:43 PM · #12
A bump,
I found that the same was happening with my Mac G5. Today I reset the display to the "windows" setting, and everything looks a little darker on my monitor with the different gamma setting. I used Apple in the top corner, System Preferences, Displays, Color, in order to get to the setting.
05/27/2008 01:38:36 AM · #13
if you really want to get a sense of how others will see your entry, go to a library (or school or work) and view it on one or several computers there.

When I took a class on scanning (before digital cameras, but after Photoshop) I was taught to never trust even a "calibrated" monitor, but to go by the values displayed by the online densitometer (aka the Info Window). In printing, we work with screen percentages, so I set one of the Info values to Grayscale, which measures the black-to-white values on a 0-100% scale -- it's always seemed very intuitive to me.

In printing, there are always limitaions on reproduction quality, especially at the extreme ends of the scale, and monitors seem pretty similar. Anything lighter than about 5% will appear as a blown highlight, while shadow areas darker than 93-95% will "plug up" and lose detail. I usually adjust "by eye" on my (uncalibrated) CRT monitor, and then double-check and re-adjust using densitometry ... my determination that this is a relatively successful system is that my prints turn out as I expect. AFAIK, I don't use any color management, but my cameras only shoot in sRGB anyway, so I can be lazy and just stay in that color-space.
07/24/2008 04:38:48 PM · #14
So now I'm wondering if Joey, or anybody else, found a resolution to this. I have suddenly encountered the same, or very similar, problem. I'm using a mac book pro with a monitor that was calibrated with an eye one device. I convert the image to sRGB and set it to 8-bit and then do Save for Web. The resulting web image is clearly darker than the original. I can turn Proof Colors on and off without and change to the displayed image.
07/24/2008 04:52:09 PM · #15
Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".

07/24/2008 05:19:00 PM · #16
Thanks! That was one of the most useful pieces of info ever!

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".
07/24/2008 06:54:26 PM · #17
Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


Cool... that fixed half the problem and now the images doesn't change in appearance when I select Save for Web.

But, I still have an issue with the images saved for web appearing darker. On my mac the image saved with an sRGB color profile is lighter than the one saved with no profile. Since the browser defaults to sRGB if there is no color profile, I would assume that no profile and sRGB profile should match... they always have before. I'm still missing something...

sRGB No profile

(and to further justify tagging off a Joey L thread, the use of the lantern was inspired by his use of a lightbulb in this image, but my light isn't as cool as his... yet.
07/24/2008 07:41:15 PM · #18
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


Cool... that fixed half the problem and now the images doesn't change in appearance when I select Save for Web.

But, I still have an issue with the images saved for web appearing darker. On my mac the image saved with an sRGB color profile is lighter than the one saved with no profile. Since the browser defaults to sRGB if there is no color profile, I would assume that no profile and sRGB profile should match... they always have before. I'm still missing something...

sRGB No profile

(and to further justify tagging off a Joey L thread, the use of the lantern was inspired by his use of a lightbulb in this image, but my light isn't as cool as his... yet.


The sRGB and no profile images would only match if the profile used in PS was sRGB. If the profile used in PS is a wider space like Adobe RGB (1998) then the image will appear darker as tones are merged to fit in the smaller space. By not including the profile forces any viewing software to interpret the colour numbers, usually as sRGB (in browsers).

Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:42:36.
07/24/2008 07:59:13 PM · #19
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


Cool... that fixed half the problem and now the images doesn't change in appearance when I select Save for Web.

But, I still have an issue with the images saved for web appearing darker. On my mac the image saved with an sRGB color profile is lighter than the one saved with no profile. Since the browser defaults to sRGB if there is no color profile, I would assume that no profile and sRGB profile should match... they always have before. I'm still missing something...

sRGB No profile

(and to further justify tagging off a Joey L thread, the use of the lantern was inspired by his use of a lightbulb in this image, but my light isn't as cool as his... yet.


The sRGB and no profile images would only match if the profile used in PS was sRGB. If the profile used in PS is a wider space like Adobe RGB (1998) then the image will appear darker as tones are merged to fit in the smaller space. By not including the profile forces any viewing software to interpret the colour numbers, usually as sRGB (in browsers).


Yes, the sRGB image above was explicitly converted to sRGB and then saved as a jpeg rather than saved for web. If you pull it down it will show an sRGB profile in photoshop. The second image was saved for web and has no color profile.
07/24/2008 08:06:30 PM · #20
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


Cool... that fixed half the problem and now the images doesn't change in appearance when I select Save for Web.

But, I still have an issue with the images saved for web appearing darker. On my mac the image saved with an sRGB color profile is lighter than the one saved with no profile. Since the browser defaults to sRGB if there is no color profile, I would assume that no profile and sRGB profile should match... they always have before. I'm still missing something...

sRGB No profile

(and to further justify tagging off a Joey L thread, the use of the lantern was inspired by his use of a lightbulb in this image, but my light isn't as cool as his... yet.


The sRGB and no profile images would only match if the profile used in PS was sRGB. If the profile used in PS is a wider space like Adobe RGB (1998) then the image will appear darker as tones are merged to fit in the smaller space. By not including the profile forces any viewing software to interpret the colour numbers, usually as sRGB (in browsers).


Yes, the sRGB image above was explicitly converted to sRGB and then saved as a jpeg rather than saved for web. If you pull it down it will show an sRGB profile in photoshop. The second image was saved for web and has no color profile.


Whether the profile is in the image or not really the issue. The issue is what profile was used to save the image. If it was sRGB then both images will look the same regardless of whether the profile is embedded or not.

If the image was not converted from a wider space before using save for web then SFW will interpret the colour numbers as sRGB and produce a darker image if the working space is a wider colour space.

What is your working space? Was an explicit conversion done in both cases - where SFW includes the embedded profile and where it doesn't?

BTW, both these images look the same so I suspect an explicit conversion was done in both cases.

Message edited by author 2008-07-24 20:09:01.
07/24/2008 08:33:38 PM · #21
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


Cool... that fixed half the problem and now the images doesn't change in appearance when I select Save for Web.

But, I still have an issue with the images saved for web appearing darker. On my mac the image saved with an sRGB color profile is lighter than the one saved with no profile. Since the browser defaults to sRGB if there is no color profile, I would assume that no profile and sRGB profile should match... they always have before. I'm still missing something...

sRGB No profile

(and to further justify tagging off a Joey L thread, the use of the lantern was inspired by his use of a lightbulb in this image, but my light isn't as cool as his... yet.


The sRGB and no profile images would only match if the profile used in PS was sRGB. If the profile used in PS is a wider space like Adobe RGB (1998) then the image will appear darker as tones are merged to fit in the smaller space. By not including the profile forces any viewing software to interpret the colour numbers, usually as sRGB (in browsers).


Yes, the sRGB image above was explicitly converted to sRGB and then saved as a jpeg rather than saved for web. If you pull it down it will show an sRGB profile in photoshop. The second image was saved for web and has no color profile.


Whether the profile is in the image or not really the issue. The issue is what profile was used to save the image. If it was sRGB then both images will look the same regardless of whether the profile is embedded or not.

If the image was not converted from a wider space before using save for web then SFW will interpret the colour numbers as sRGB and produce a darker image if the working space is a wider colour space.

What is your working space? Was an explicit conversion done in both cases - where SFW includes the embedded profile and where it doesn't?

BTW, both these images look the same so I suspect an explicit conversion was done in both cases.


Working space is Adobe RGB
Image was converted to sRGB using Edit -> Convert to Profile
I did a Save for Web
I then did a Save As (jpeg) and included the profile.

I agree that they should both look the same, but on this mac the image that were saved for web are definitely darker. I just calibrated again with eye-one to verify that the monitor is accurate.

Thanks for helping because after years of consistency in the area something had broken and I'm at a complete loss as to what it could be.

07/24/2008 08:37:31 PM · #22
It's one of those things that makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmm ..... and pull your hair out.
07/25/2008 01:28:17 AM · #23
Haha! Thanks, glad it helped you out. I figured it out yesterday in desperation of being forced to work on my mactop. (I'm only 2000 miles or so away from my desktop which I had wired so I could adjust for the difference on it before I saved for web, lighter, less yellow)
The lappy was totally different and I got tired of the flat image it kept giving me no matter what I did so I searched every single option on the page. It was right under my nose but not exactly in an obvious place.

Originally posted by salmiakki:

Thanks! That was one of the most useful pieces of info ever!

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Maybe. PS CS3 on a mactop.

When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".
07/25/2008 02:34:13 AM · #24
Originally posted by Nusbaum:


I agree that they should both look the same, but on this mac the image that were saved for web are definitely darker. I just calibrated again with eye-one to verify that the monitor is accurate.

Thanks for helping because after years of consistency in the area something had broken and I'm at a complete loss as to what it could be.


When you calibrate use 2.2 gamma, D65 6500 degrees Kelvin. Start with a fresh profile - don't just recalibrate the profile you are using now.
07/25/2008 02:39:10 AM · #25
Originally posted by Ristyz:


When you go into the save for web window, above the right corner of the picture window there is a little arrow. (just to the left and above the save button) Click on that arrow and you get a menu for choosing the color space (and other things). Change it to the option that says "use the document color space".


That is a proof feature only and does not change the color space. It is the same as the "Proof" feature in PS. No change is made to the file.
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