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05/20/2008 09:47:41 PM · #1 |
So, for a recent challenge (not saying which), I submitted a photo that I (and my photographer friends) thought was pretty great, but I knew it didn't meet the challenge - I just didn't have a chance that week to set up a challenge shot. That photo is the third-lowest score (so far) I've ever gotten, worse than many much poorer (IMO) photos I've submitted that did meet the challenge. So:
Do you give good DNMC's significantly lower scores than poor images that meet the challenge?
And while I'm thinking about this, how do you judge DNMC? Is it just your first impression, or do you give the benefit of the doubt (artist's vision, etc.)?
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05/20/2008 10:06:06 PM · #2 |
Airatic, I view the challenge as I would an assignment. Say I was asked to photograph someone's newborn daughter. Once on site, I see that they have an adorable puppy as well. Back at home, while post processing, I decide that the puppy pictures I took were much nicer, so I print those out, make some albums, etc, etc, and deliver them those.
Well... DNMC. (and refund/lawsuit/etc)
Putting a photograph of a puppy in a challenge calling for cats would get a 1 from me.
However, many challenges aren't cut and try. For example, the triangular composition challenge technically had over 50% DNMCs, mostly due to the fact that most submitters had no idea what a triangular composition was. In fact, neither did most voters seeing that the highest rated photo showing triangular composition was #10 (#6 and #7 arguably also did). Given the discrepancy, I only voted on those I felt met the challenge.
On other challenges, such as games, odd, and even, then I allow my imagination run wild. If I can think of any way, regardless of how remotely, that the image could fit in the challenge, then it is. No deductions.
ETA: For example, if you dress up the aforementioned puppy in a cat outfit, not only would you not get deductions, but you'd get bonus points.
Message edited by author 2008-05-20 22:09:50. |
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05/20/2008 10:07:06 PM · #3 |
Personally, i think it all depends on the challenge.for example if its in the YELLOW challenge, and they submit a black and white photo i would give it a significantly lower score. But if it is in a challenge that can be interpreted in different ways, i would not vote it WAY down for not being 'inside the box'. personally i just think that it all will depend on the specific shot in the specific challenge. But i think that a lot of times people get too carried away with the 'DNMC' that they actually don't take the time to look at the shot from the artists point of view, and they need to realize that not everyone is going to have the same ideas.
BUT i also need to say that since you knew that it did not meet one of the challenges, than i think a lower score should be expected from the voter community.
okay to answer your question (sorry im rambling)
I give DNMC's that are good quality shots higher scores than OOF, unappealing, photos that "fit the challenge".
:]
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05/20/2008 10:07:20 PM · #4 |
Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat.
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture.
I have seen and continue to see perfectly good photographs here penalized for exceeding the appreciative capacity of voters to recognize an entry for the poignant topicality it may demonstrate. If I consider the photo remarkable (artistically very interesting), I may just decide to award the highest mark possible in the faint hope to compensate for a predictably overall devaluation.
Message edited by author 2008-05-20 23:18:25. |
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05/20/2008 10:10:04 PM · #5 |
You're probably going to get a lot of responses directing you to previous threads. I've been here a short time and it's come up a lot since I started here.
That being said, I'm still on the fence. This is a challenge oriented website, so to me, the photograph should at least make an effort to meet the challenge. If it doesn't, feel free to upload it into your portfolio, share it in a side challenge thread, etc. The tricky part is determining what meets the challenge and what doesn't. A lot of times that seems open to a fair amount of interpretation. If I feel that something doesn't meet the challenge, I'll make a concerted effort to try and find a way to make it fit. If I still can't, I may vote it down a little bit. I feel like that's pretty fair.
Edited to add: If I really feel like something doesn't fit the challenge, I will post a comment that goes beyond DNMC. If I take the time to write a detailed comment, than usually I feel pretty confident that I've looked at the photo as objectively as possible.
Message edited by author 2008-05-20 22:13:52. |
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05/20/2008 10:14:14 PM · #6 |
I don't think that I have ever given an image a DNMC. If I have, it was with a comment explaining why I thought it DNMC.
I would just skip the image in voting, and maybe leave a comment about why I thought the image didn't fit the challenge. As has been said, I can not feel that I would know every angle that photographers would be thinking about how a challenge could be met.
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05/20/2008 10:35:34 PM · #7 |
If I think it does not meet the challenge, I will rate it first on it's merit as a photo and then deduct a point or two depending on how far off base I think it is. If I am the only one to feel that way, then my action will have very minimal impact, but if everyone feels it is DNMC, then the group voice has spoken. And I do leave comments to that effect.
Originally posted by Trinch:
However, many challenges aren't cut and try. For example, the triangular composition challenge technically had over 50% DNMCs, mostly due to the fact that most submitters had no idea what a triangular composition was. In fact, neither did most voters seeing that the highest rated photo showing triangular composition was #10 (#6 and #7 arguably also did). |
I actually knew my entry did not meet the triangular composition concept, although it displayed lot of triangles. I entered it intentionally, to see if anyone commented to that effect. (It bombed, BTW)
Message edited by author 2008-05-20 22:36:32. |
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05/20/2008 11:15:32 PM · #8 |
| If I see a picture as truly DNMC, then I express why I think it is and yes I give them a 1 no matter how good it is. Its a challenge. If you submit a great photo of a flower in the boat challenge, and its not at least floating in the water, it could be some georgio o keefe level art but it is still a 1, save it for free challenge. |
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05/20/2008 11:39:07 PM · #9 |
If the photo doesn't meet the challenge skip the challenge. There is no need to put in just any ol' photo just because you didn't have time to go shoot a challenge photo. In fact I have had a couple of challenges where I didn't have time so I spent all of 5 minutes shooting something and actually have it do OK (the fence challenge comes to mind).
For photos that are clearly in the DMNC camp I will score them a 1 to 3. 3 if they are a technically good photo but just DMNC and a 2 or 1 if there is some technical flaw. 1's have to be pretty bad, and are rare. |
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05/20/2008 11:39:44 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by CarpeLumen:
If I see a picture as truly DNMC, then I express why I think it is and yes I give them a 1 no matter how good it is. Its a challenge. If you submit a great photo of a flower in the boat challenge, and its not at least floating in the water, it could be some georgio o keefe level art but it is still a 1, save it for free challenge. |
Oh crap. Guess I need to change my entry. |
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05/20/2008 11:49:31 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by CarpeLumen:
If I see a picture as truly DNMC, then I express why I think it is and yes I give them a 1 no matter how good it is. |
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05/21/2008 12:00:40 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Trinch:
Airatic, I view the challenge as I would an assignment. Say I was asked to photograph someone's newborn daughter. Once on site, I see that they have an adorable puppy as well. Back at home, while post processing, I decide that the puppy pictures I took were much nicer, so I print those out, make some albums, etc, etc, and deliver them those.
Well... DNMC. (and refund/lawsuit/etc)
Putting a photograph of a puppy in a challenge calling for cats would get a 1 from me.
However, many challenges aren't cut and try. For example, the triangular composition challenge technically had over 50% DNMCs, mostly due to the fact that most submitters had no idea what a triangular composition was. In fact, neither did most voters seeing that the highest rated photo showing triangular composition was #10 (#6 and #7 arguably also did). Given the discrepancy, I only voted on those I felt met the challenge.
On other challenges, such as games, odd, and even, then I allow my imagination run wild. If I can think of any way, regardless of how remotely, that the image could fit in the challenge, then it is. No deductions.
ETA: For example, if you dress up the aforementioned puppy in a cat outfit, not only would you not get deductions, but you'd get bonus points. |
I'll second all that (thanks for saving me the typing).
There are countless websites where you can show off any photo you like.
DPC challenges us to be creative within a topic, and that part is too important to simply ignore it and shoehorn in just any old photo. |
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05/21/2008 12:01:41 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by airatic:
So, for a recent challenge (not saying which), I submitted a photo that I (and my photographer friends) thought was pretty great, but I knew it didn't meet the challenge - I just didn't have a chance that week to set up a challenge shot. That photo is the third-lowest score (so far) I've ever gotten, worse than many much poorer (IMO) photos I've submitted that did meet the challenge. So:
Do you give good DNMC's significantly lower scores than poor images that meet the challenge?
And while I'm thinking about this, how do you judge DNMC? Is it just your first impression, or do you give the benefit of the doubt (artist's vision, etc.)? |
Yes. To me the first and foremost reason your picture is there is that it meets the challenge. If it does not, then it's a one. No matter how good a photo it may be, if it has no right to be in the contest, I personally disqualify it. If it passes that first test, then the 1-10 point scale can be applied as to how good a photo it is THAT MET THE CHALLENGE.
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05/21/2008 12:04:14 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by CarpeLumen:
If I see a picture as truly DNMC, then I express why I think it is and yes I give them a 1 no matter how good it is. Its a challenge. If you submit a great photo of a flower in the boat challenge, and its not at least floating in the water, it could be some georgio o keefe level art but it is still a 1, save it for free challenge. |
EXACTLY!
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05/21/2008 12:08:48 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
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If a student of mine where to turn in a summary of a research article, and the assignment was to critique it, they would easily get a d or an f....why give those on here any credit when they cant do the given promt, while 95% of the rest of the people go out and try and work and think on the prompt. This week I got poison ivy, lost a sandal, and sat staring at [blank] for 3 hours waiting for something that never came, all for a challenge. perhaps it was a waste of time but I learned a lot actually. Those who happen to get some good pics this week and just want to submit them for gits and shiggles, they deserve low scores..... I know this bc I used to be one of them. |
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05/21/2008 12:48:15 AM · #16 |
| If it is DNMC, it gets a 1, not matter how beautiful the image. But it has to clearly not meet the challenge. For instance, in the ABC challenge, it was pretty clear that the title should consist of three words, with the first letter of the three words being consecutive letters of the alphabet. Sorry to say, but I voted 1 on the ones that did not do that. IMHO, trying to create an image WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS of the challenge criteria is what makes this more than a simple beauty contest. IMO, if a submission does not meet the criteria, then it really does not belong in that challenge. If it is a truly great image, save it for the monthly free study. |
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05/21/2008 10:27:44 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Jaker:
You're probably going to get a lot of responses directing you to previous threads. I've been here a short time and it's come up a lot since I started here. |
I searched quite a bit, but maybe I wasn't searching for the right terms.
It looks like alot of voters give no latitude whatsoever on DNMC. This is alarming in an artistic community. I agree that shoehorning a totally unrelated photo is bad, and I cop to that charge (I had no internet all week and decided to submit anyway when I got back). But what about creative license?
Examples:
The challenge is Red. I am red-green colorblind, so I submit a black&white photo of a ball, and I title it Colorblind.
The challenge is Soft Focus, and I submit a sharp photo of a student daydreaming in class (losing focus).
The challenge is Motherhood, and I submit a portrait of a woman who's just become pregnant (not visible).
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05/21/2008 10:32:03 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by airatic:
Originally posted by Jaker:
You're probably going to get a lot of responses directing you to previous threads. I've been here a short time and it's come up a lot since I started here. |
I searched quite a bit, but maybe I wasn't searching for the right terms.
It looks like alot of voters give no latitude whatsoever on DNMC. This is alarming in an artistic community. I agree that shoehorning a totally unrelated photo is bad, and I cop to that charge (I had no internet all week and decided to submit anyway when I got back). But what about creative license?
Examples:
The challenge is Red. I am red-green colorblind, so I submit a black&white photo of a ball, and I title it Colorblind.
The challenge is Soft Focus, and I submit a sharp photo of a student daydreaming in class (losing focus).
The challenge is Motherhood, and I submit a portrait of a woman who's just become pregnant (not visible). |
1. I think would actually fit if that were the title. Some may not get it, but I think many would.
2. I think the challenge said to use the Soft Focus TECHNIQUE, so this would clearly (pun) not meet the challenge.
3. Unless you conveyed something about her being pregnant, it would be a DNMC, IMO. Her holding her belly and titled expecting is a lot different than a portrait of just a woman. You would need to communicate the them somehow in your photo, even if it were not "true" technically.
Shoehorning meets the challenge. But in such an out of the box fashion that people might not get it.
Some themes are clearly DNMC in an objective way. B&W image in a Complementary Colors challenge or a Color photo in a B&W challenge. Movie Titles is a little trickier, because who is to say what movies are all out there. ABC...LMN...XYZ was pretty cut and dried too.
others, there is lattitude.
Message edited by author 2008-05-21 10:34:20.
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05/21/2008 11:00:21 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by airatic:
It looks like alot of voters give no latitude whatsoever on DNMC. This is alarming in an artistic community. I agree that shoehorning a totally unrelated photo is bad, and I cop to that charge (I had no internet all week and decided to submit anyway when I got back). But what about creative license? |
That's why I deduct a few points from my rating, but I don't just slap a 1 on it. This way, if I am dense and just fail to see the relevance to the topic, I am not dinging it too badly, but enough that if others feel the same, it will relect in the final score. |
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05/21/2008 11:10:45 AM · #20 |
If even you yourself think that your image does not meet the challenge, then why do you submit it? Use it for a free study or wait for the next challenge.
Originally posted by airatic:
Do you give good DNMC's significantly lower scores than poor images that meet the challenge? |
Of course (if it's a clear DNMC). Otherwise DPC would just be a random photo contest and we could abandon the challenge concept altogether. |
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05/21/2008 11:11:25 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by CarpeLumen:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
! |
If a student of mine where to turn in a summary of a research article, and the assignment was to critique it, they would easily get a d or an f....why give those on here any credit when they cant do the given promt, while 95% of the rest of the people go out and try and work and think on the prompt. This week I got poison ivy, lost a sandal, and sat staring at [blank] for 3 hours waiting for something that never came, all for a challenge. perhaps it was a waste of time but I learned a lot actually. Those who happen to get some good pics this week and just want to submit them for gits and shiggles, they deserve low scores..... I know this bc I used to be one of them. |
Again, from my preceding post (below):
"Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat. " |
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05/21/2008 11:12:54 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by airatic:
...It looks like alot of voters give no latitude whatsoever on DNMC. This is alarming in an artistic community... |
I vehemently agree. |
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05/21/2008 11:15:31 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by airatic:
I just didn't have a chance that week to set up a challenge shot. |
My response to this part of the original post is this: If you don't have a shot that meets the challenge don't enter. If you have a nice shot that you want to enter in something save it for a free study. Score aside, your comments are going to be nothing but how your shot doesn't meet the challenge. If you have a good shot it deserves to be put in an appropriate challenge. And if there isn't one handy? Put it in your portfolio and ask for comments.
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05/21/2008 11:17:46 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
[snip...]
Some themes are clearly DNMC in an objective way. B&W image in a Complementary Colors challenge or a Color photo in a B&W challenge. Movie Titles is a little trickier, because who is to say what movies are all out there. ABC...LMN...XYZ was pretty cut and dried too.
others, there is lattitude. |
If I'm suspicious of whether or not a "movie title" is truely a movie, I will Google or IMDB search it. Both of those sites have a pretty extensive list of movies. If your said movie shows up you're good; but if not, it'll most likely likely be voted down.
From there you can judge the merits/subject of the image, to see if they match the title. Last but not least the attributes of the image, DOF, lighting, composition, clarity, etc...
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05/21/2008 11:18:44 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by CarpeLumen:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
! |
If a student of mine where to turn in a summary of a research article, and the assignment was to critique it, they would easily get a d or an f....why give those on here any credit when they cant do the given promt, while 95% of the rest of the people go out and try and work and think on the prompt. This week I got poison ivy, lost a sandal, and sat staring at [blank] for 3 hours waiting for something that never came, all for a challenge. perhaps it was a waste of time but I learned a lot actually. Those who happen to get some good pics this week and just want to submit them for gits and shiggles, they deserve low scores..... I know this bc I used to be one of them. |
Again, from my preceding post (below):
"Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat. " |
Correct... But if the photographer's imagination results in a photo that does not mean the clearly defined terms of the challenge, then that photo should not be submitted. If they submit anyway, they should receive a score based on the quality of the photo AS IT RELATES TO THE THEME. If it does not relate to the theme, then it deserves no score in that challenge.
Simple formula:
Rating of photo on artistic and technical merit (1-10) * DNMC modifier (1=Met, 0 = DNMC) = SCORE
So a 7.0000 photo that:
DNMC = 7.0000 * 0 = 0.0000 SCORE
Met = 7.0000 * 1 = 7.0000 SCORE
Sadly, we cannot rate photos a zero here. So the best the DNMC photo can get is a 1.0000 from honest voters.
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