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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Outakes Poll - where do you stand?
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02/27/2008 09:43:19 AM · #1
In the past I have been a strong supporter of keeping outtakes discussions suppressed during voting. But now I'm reconsidering that position because it seems little meaningful discussion takes place after the challenge.

My original stance is rooted in the idea that such discussion unduly influences voting on entries. That hard feelings would develop when someone might say something like, "Here's my crappy image of an X, I'm sure glad I didn't enter it because there are a whole bunch in the challenge."

Where do YOU stand and why?

1 - Discussion of outtakes should be kept out of the forums until voting has ENDED (current policy).
2 - Discussion of outtakes should be kept out of the forums until voting has STARTED.
3 - Discussion of outtakes is fine at any time.
4 - Discussion of outtakes is fine at any time, so long as the outtakes are not similar to the poster's challenge entry.

(editing the inevitable typos)

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 09:45:05.
02/27/2008 09:46:50 AM · #2
Originally posted by KaDi:

... My original stance is rooted in the idea that such discussions unduly influences voting on entries. That hard feelings would develop when someone might say something like, "Here's my crappy image of an X, I'm sure glad I didn't enter it because there are a whole bunch in the challenge. ...

Exactly!

Another line of thought is that related outtake threads, while the challenge is still active, takes away energy (voting and comments) on the active challenge.

JMO of course. :-)
02/27/2008 10:08:43 AM · #3
This is at least the 2nd poll on this issue, there may have been more.
The inevitable outcome, will be to maintain current policy - which forbids discussion & presentation of outtakes during voting.
Of course the poll has been revived to remind people of the rule due to the fact of a natural inclination to knowingly or unknowingly disregard it. Recent brazen violations of the rule, in current challenge threads has probably brought complaints.
I have always been in favor of - "Discussion of outtakes is fine at any time, so long as the outtakes are not similar to the poster's challenge entry."
I am in favor of subject discussion of a challenge during voting, with outtakes, and beyond threads of score listings & hints.

02/27/2008 10:20:49 AM · #4
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Another line of thought is that related outtake threads, while the challenge is still active, takes away energy (voting and comments) on the active challenge.

I have always been in favor of allowing people to post outtakes as long as it doesn't compromise their anonymity or look like someone else's active entry. I find it bizarre to restrict photo discussion on a photography site, and disagree with the idea that it takes away from active challenges. IMO voting and commenting are not finite resources to be rationed out, and lively community discussion can build excitement and interest, leading people to spend more time on the challenges. Suppressing site participation seems counterproductive to me, and explaining to a newbie that they can't post a portrait of their kid on a photography site because a Child Portrait challenge is underway is just plain awkward. :-/
02/27/2008 10:27:36 AM · #5
Originally posted by undieyatch:

I have always been in favor of - "Discussion of outtakes is fine at any time, so long as the outtakes are not similar to the poster's challenge entry." I am in favor of subject discussion of a challenge during voting, with outtakes, and beyond threads of score listings & hints.

My position too.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 10:29:51.
02/27/2008 10:30:37 AM · #6
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Another line of thought is that related outtake threads, while the challenge is still active, takes away energy (voting and comments) on the active challenge.

I have always been in favor of allowing people to post outtakes as long as it doesn't compromise their anonymity or look like someone else's active entry. I find it bizarre to restrict photo discussion on a photography site, and disagree with the idea that it takes away from active challenges. IMO voting and commenting are not finite resources to be rationed out, and lively community discussion can build excitement and interest, leading people to spend more time on the challenges. Suppressing site participation seems counterproductive to me, and explaining to a newbie that they can't post a portrait of their kid on a photography site because a Child Portrait challenge is underway is just plain awkward. :-/

I won't disagree with you (and I don't think you're disagreeing with me personally). I just said it's "another line of thought". It's a common thought that is presented when this debate comes up every once-in-awhile.

The "outtakes" during voting that I don't care for are the ones that are posted as "I missed the deadline, what do you think of this?", or "I thought about entering, but chickened out. How would this have done?" Those should wait IMO until the challenge is over. If they wanted to know how it "would have" done, then they "should have" entered.

I also don't think it's correct to post outtakes that remove anonymity of challenge entries.

It is a fine line to walk at times...probably why outtakes have continued to be frowned upon.
02/27/2008 10:36:17 AM · #7
Originally posted by scalvert:

...I find it bizarre to restrict photo discussion on a photography site
...and lively community discussion can build excitement and interest
...Suppressing site participation seems counterproductive to me, and explaining to a newbie that they can't post a portrait of their kid on a photography site because a Child Portrait challenge is underway is just plain awkward. :-/


These points are exactly why I'm on the fence.
I want to read and participate in more photography discussions. And I want to do that when I and others are excited about a topic we've given some thought to.
After voting the topic is stale and we move on.
I have found myself combing scores threads for crumbs of ideas about the current challenge...kinda pathetic, isn't it?
02/27/2008 10:41:58 AM · #8
Originally posted by glad2badad:


The "outtakes" during voting that I don't care for are the ones that are posted as "I missed the deadline, what do you think of this?", or "I thought about entering, but chickened out. How would this have done?" Those should wait IMO until the challenge is over. If they wanted to know how it "would have" done, then they "should have" entered.


I'm strongly of the same opinion. You gotta pay to play...if you want to know how it would score, you gotta put it out there for a score.

But then I think about the person who looks at the current, say, pet portrait challenge and is inspired to share some recent efforts trying to capture Fido's best side. "No, no!" we say, "that's just inappropriate to discuss..." And here, like Shannon, I say =/
02/27/2008 10:43:21 AM · #9
Originally posted by KaDi:

I want to read and participate in more photography discussions. And I want to do that when I and others are excited about a topic we've given some thought to.

Yep, and if seeing similar images really affected voting, we would hide earlier challenge of the same topic.
02/27/2008 10:46:25 AM · #10
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by KaDi:

I want to read and participate in more photography discussions. And I want to do that when I and others are excited about a topic we've given some thought to.

Yep, and if seeing similar images really affected voting, we would hide earlier challenge of the same topic.

Shannon. That's not really a fair comparison. Current photos in an active forum thread are far more visible than a prior challenge buried in the history/archives.
02/27/2008 10:55:12 AM · #11
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Yep, and if seeing similar images really affected voting, we would hide earlier challenge of the same topic.

Shannon. That's not really a fair comparison. Current photos in an active forum thread are far more visible than a prior challenge buried in the history/archives.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure... people will often look through past versions of a challenge to get a feel for it before shooting or voting. If merely seeing related images had an adverse influence on voting, then viewing those photos should be as harmful as any outtake thread.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

If they wanted to know how it "would have" done, then they "should have" entered.

I agree, and anyone who asks for scoring opinions in the forums will get a wildly inaccurate response anyway. Few people who would have scored your entry low are going to say so in a forum thread.
02/27/2008 11:02:01 AM · #12
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Yep, and if seeing similar images really affected voting, we would hide earlier challenge of the same topic.

Shannon. That's not really a fair comparison. Current photos in an active forum thread are far more visible than a prior challenge buried in the history/archives.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure... people will often look through past versions of a challenge to get a feel for it before shooting or voting. If merely seeing related images had an adverse influence on voting, then viewing those photos should be as harmful as any outtake thread.

Hmmm. Ok. "Seeing related images" I guess is different than talking about them. I agree that in most cases just looking at images in the same category as an active challenge wouldn't impact voting opinions - unless somebody like scalvert comes along and posts one in outtakes that just blows away a similar take you've entered in the challenge. :-)
02/27/2008 11:26:36 AM · #13
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Yep, and if seeing similar images really affected voting, we would hide earlier challenge of the same topic.

Shannon. That's not really a fair comparison. Current photos in an active forum thread are far more visible than a prior challenge buried in the history/archives.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure... people will often look through past versions of a challenge to get a feel for it before shooting or voting. If merely seeing related images had an adverse influence on voting, then viewing those photos should be as harmful as any outtake thread.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

If they wanted to know how it "would have" done, then they "should have" entered.

I agree, and anyone who asks for scoring opinions in the forums will get a wildly inaccurate response anyway. Few people who would have scored your entry low are going to say so in a forum thread.


This actually seems like a double standard to me. People who enter a challenge and then post outtakes are also asking how the outtakes "would have" done. Should everyone have to post their inferior photos in a challenge in order to get any feedback? That would be an unfortunate state of affairs for this community to say, "Hey, if you haven't got the balls to do the challenge then keep your photo to yourself!"

Besides, I'd be surprised if people are just after scores for their non-entries. I think they just want comments. It's one of my favorite services of this site. I love looking at other people's photo's, good and bad, commenting, and learning from the comments of others.
02/27/2008 11:35:19 AM · #14
I have done a flop on this one. I'm with Shannon now, though I used to believe "no outtake discussion until voting is done". I think the forums would be more interesting and the voters perhaps better-informed/more motivated if there were open discussion of outtakes and different approaches tot he topic both before and during voting.

R.
02/27/2008 11:38:45 AM · #15
Originally posted by marttila:

This actually seems like a double standard to me. People who enter a challenge and then post outtakes are also asking how the outtakes "would have" done.

Yes, they're asking how it would have done...but currently they're asking AFTER the challenge is over.

Originally posted by marttila:

Should everyone have to post their inferior photos in a challenge in order to get any feedback? That would be an unfortunate state of affairs for this community to say, "Hey, if you haven't got the balls to do the challenge then keep your photo to yourself!"

No, people don't "have to post their inferior photos in a challenge" - but if you aren't going to enter, then wait until after the challenge has finished voting (like everyone else has to now).
02/27/2008 11:42:41 AM · #16
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

... open discussion of different approaches tot he topic both before and during voting. ...

It gets heated enough in the "scores" threads at times when philosophies/approaches/what's "right, not right" get discussed during an active challenge.

Generally it comes down to various camps trying to make their "pitch" as to why their approach, etc... is the right one. Then you have people saying they're going to vote up/down all subjects.

It's ugly.

edit (their to they're)

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 11:43:13.
02/27/2008 11:45:56 AM · #17
According to Dictionary.com an outtake is a complete version, as of a recording, that is dropped in favor of another version. Now if this is true, then outtake discussion is not allowed because it would be similar or recognizable in the challenge...because it is a different version.
But, if people are shooting a flower, then turnaround all of a sudden to get a shot of a car crash, that is not an outtake anyway..it is just part of that session. So, technically there is not an "outtake" to discuss. It is just a photo discussion then.

So, to me, you either wait till the challenge is over to discuss a Challenge Outtake, or you have an Individual Photo DIscussion at anytime.
02/27/2008 11:47:49 AM · #18
What is the point of having closed/anonymous voting if it can be so skewed by outtakes in forums, which in many cases will be outtakes from the same scene/shot.

I'm strongly against it. There's already too much opinions floated around between teams and friends pre challange, so for us solo shooters it's not a level playing field. Adding this in just tilts it even more.

N
02/27/2008 11:49:19 AM · #19
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by marttila:

This actually seems like a double standard to me. People who enter a challenge and then post outtakes are also asking how the outtakes "would have" done.

Yes, they're asking how it would have done...but currently they're asking AFTER the challenge is over.

Originally posted by marttila:

Should everyone have to post their inferior photos in a challenge in order to get any feedback? That would be an unfortunate state of affairs for this community to say, "Hey, if you haven't got the balls to do the challenge then keep your photo to yourself!"

No, people don't "have to post their inferior photos in a challenge" - but if you aren't going to enter, then wait until after the challenge has finished voting (like everyone else has to now).


Sorry if I was unclear. I was not addressing the timing at all. I was only refering to the sentiment that there is a difference between outtakes from those who entered a challenge and those who have not. Outtake rules should apply to all photographers equally regardless of whether or not they entered a challenge. That's all I was attempting to say.
02/27/2008 12:03:03 PM · #20
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

if people are shooting a flower, then turnaround all of a sudden to get a shot of a car crash, that is not an outtake anyway..it is just part of that session. So, technically there is not an "outtake" to discuss. It is just a photo discussion then.

DPC still considers that an outtake, even though it had nothing to do with your entry. Images from the same scene/session would compromise anonymity, and are addressed by the last poll choice.
02/27/2008 12:11:31 PM · #21
IMO, this image

in this thread is certainly a real gray area. Any thoughts?
02/27/2008 12:14:31 PM · #22
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

if people are shooting a flower, then turnaround all of a sudden to get a shot of a car crash, that is not an outtake anyway..it is just part of that session. So, technically there is not an "outtake" to discuss. It is just a photo discussion then.

DPC still considers that an outtake, even though it had nothing to do with your entry. Images from the same scene/session would compromise anonymity, and are addressed by the last poll choice.

Hey, I'll slightly disagree with this. To me, an out-take or, as I prefer, an "alternate" shot is one which is relevant to the challenge at hand.

If the challenge is "Flora" and you are shooting some daisies when you hear a car crash and turn to photograph it, I don't care if you post the crash photos -- they have nothing to do with the challenge. But don't enter the daisies and then post a picture of a rose you took the next day and ask how it would have done -- that is an alternate or out-take, and essentially would give you two entries in the challenge, one which will get votes and one which will not.

What gets/got me annoyed in the first place was when -- during the voting where I have two comments -- someone posts their "second shot" of the challenge in a forum post and gets ten comments on their photo which isn't even an entry. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should get to garner comments on two photos on the current topic, when others are limited to one.
02/27/2008 12:16:52 PM · #23
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

According to Dictionary.com an outtake is a complete version, as of a recording, that is dropped in favor of another version. Now if this is true, then outtake discussion is not allowed because it would be similar or recognizable in the challenge...because it is a different version.
But, if people are shooting a flower, then turnaround all of a sudden to get a shot of a car crash, that is not an outtake anyway..it is just part of that session. So, technically there is not an "outtake" to discuss. It is just a photo discussion then.

So, to me, you either wait till the challenge is over to discuss a Challenge Outtake, or you have an Individual Photo DIscussion at anytime.


I'm totally with you here on this one. I entered the Color on Color challenge, but took a ton of shots for the B&W in Color Challenge, and as it stands I can't post and discuss them?
02/27/2008 12:19:39 PM · #24
Originally posted by ZeppKash:

I'm totally with you here on this one. I entered the Color on Color challenge, but took a ton of shots for the B&W in Color Challenge, and as it stands I can't post and discuss them?

Not until the voting's over -- why should you get to "enter" both challenges? The point of the "Exclusive" challenges is you have to choose one or the other to get feedback about ...
02/27/2008 12:26:56 PM · #25
What I need someone to explain to me is why is this so important? Why can't discussion of outtakes just wait until after voting has finished?

What I'm failing to see is the benefit from early or even premature discussion of outtakes when there's obviously such downsides to the proposal...

N
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