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02/16/2008 03:45:49 PM · #1 |
My sister (and neighbor) is a 'graduate' of NYIP and works as an OT at a rehabilitation hospital here in KY. The 2 of us have been toying around with starting a business for a while now and have landed us a job doing portraits (and maybe advertising-type shots) for the new daycare at the hospital. There are 60 kids with as many as 16 kids at a time. It's a 24 hours daycare.
They are unhappy with their current photographer and have agreed to give us a shot and they want to see something in the way of pricing (and something in the form of a brochure?) by Wednesday. We have no idea what the norm is...? We're about ready to pay THEM just to let us come in. LOL.
My sister did mention to her that we would be uploading the shots to smugmug with passwords for the parents, and she really liked that idea. Is this a good option? We've never delved into the printing process.
What about process and set-up? She has 2 main lights, 3 umbrellas, a hair light and some backdrops. She has a Canon, I think, with a 16-80 mm and a telephoto. I have a Nikon D80 with an 18-135mm.
Other questions... releases? liability insurance? name? am I forgetting anything? Will someone hold my hand :)
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 15:46:35. |
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02/16/2008 04:16:54 PM · #2 |
Congrats! And, if you find someone to hold your hand through this, let me know! I could use a little hand holding myself lately! I've been doing some event portraiture, and I am using smugmug for the printing as well. All of the sales I've had so far seem to have more than met the expectations of those ordering them.
This one was bought as a 16x24 print, and he told me a couple of weeks ago that it was crystal clear, sharp, and the color was perfect. I have a few from there that I ordered for myself, and they turned out great.
Sounds to me like your lighting and backdrops should be more than adequate for now. I'm making due with a three light set that I bought on ebay for about $400. The one thing I would recommend, though is a fast prime lens. The 50mm 1.8 (about $100 for the nikon) was used for all of the shots I've done so far, and I'm really happy with the quality.
For the business aspects, I'm at a loss. Everything I have done so far has been volunteer stuff with the proceeds going to the organization or school. I'd be interested in more info about that as well, but there are a few threads that I remember from some time ago. . . Now, if only I could find them. :)
I would encourage you to talk to someone local about the business aspects, though. (releases, liability insurance. . . ) as the laws will be different in different states, I'm thinking. (Of course, thinking isn't always my strong suit. . . I guess I'll leave the business advice to others and just read along!) :)
Again, congrats! And good luck!
edit to add: Doesn't Smugmug use the same lab in Georgia as DPCPrints? I remember reading that somewhere. . .
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 16:18:24. |
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02/16/2008 04:27:32 PM · #3 |
For what it's worth, I picked up a couple of books on starting a photography business, they might be of interest to you:
"Business and Legal Forms for Photographers" by Crawford
"The Law (in plain English) for Photographers" by Duboff
"The Business of Studio Photography" by Lilley
I'm just starting these, so can't recommend them personally yet. My "start-up" curve has a lot more time in it (end of year) so I can afford to go slow. The first book above comes with a CD containing all of the forms in the book, so I've read.
For pricing, I would just look-up what other portrait photographers are charging in your area and price in the middle of that. You could also just cruise SmugMug and see how people are marking their's up. I'm guessing you have a Pro subscription to SmugMug? The Pro level lets you set your own prices.
Steve |
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02/16/2008 04:30:02 PM · #4 |
Also, congrat's on the opportunity! I second the use of the 50mm 1.8 on the Nikon - very good lens for the price.
I've used smugmug to upload shots from soccer games to a protected gallery, and a number of parents have purchased prints and merchandise, it's a good, easy, safe and fast way to go. Once you get comfortable with the all of the other stuff, you might want to revisit doing the prints yourself.
Steve |
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02/16/2008 04:30:07 PM · #5 |
Congrats, If you are planning on starting a business with photography this would be a great start. I have done smaller moms groups and this is how I did it. I am not saying it was perfect but it worked well for me.
Have a brochure made with information about you and what pacakges you are going to offer. Have some cheaper packages with maybe 1 or 2 photos so everyone will at least buy something. Also mention on the brochure your website and that additional prints can be ordered afterwards at your site. But make sure they know they are saving if they buy the packages from you ahead of time. Lots of people will say they are going to buy later but never will. If you offer a discount up front you will get more sales.
The brochure should go home 1-2 weeks before the pictures will be taken.
The Day of have plenty of business cards to hand out. 60 kids means 60 familys to get referals from. Which should help you in building your business.
Have a simple form for them to fill out with what packages they want. I do one sheet. The top is mine to keep and the bottom is theres to keep. On the bottom I would put all the information they need to know on when there pictures will come in and on how to order more copies from your site. Include the link address and the password.
I hope this all makes since. Again this is just how I would handle this situation. |
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02/16/2008 04:33:53 PM · #6 |
Thanks Eric and Steve! I'll check out the lens for sure.
To tell you the truth we haven't signed with SmugMug, yet, but Pro seems to be the way to go. |
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02/16/2008 04:37:07 PM · #7 |
Thanks, Jennifer!! great insight! An ordering sheet up front had not crossed our minds, but seems like a must do.
Do you ask for the money up front? It being our first job, I don't think we can do it any other way.
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 17:13:56. |
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02/16/2008 05:58:41 PM · #8 |
I would ask for the package money up front. You don't want to be stuck collecting money after you print the pictures.
Also if they don't want to order any pictures the day of, still take the childs pictures and post them to your site. They may change there mind later or if they send the link to there family you may get some sales from that.
Smugmug is a great site. I have used it for 1 year now and I have not had any problems. It is well worth the cost.
Any more question please ask.
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02/16/2008 06:31:24 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by JenniferDavidGA:
Any more question please ask. |
OK!! :)
Where do I start with an ordering sheet. I've a little bit of graphic design experience but can you tell me where I can find some samples. Plus, we don't even know what to charge. |
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02/16/2008 08:46:33 PM · #10 |
Before you start a business you should have a plan, a partnership agreement in some form, a way to deal with the record keeping (income, taxes, expenses, customers, etc).
Name? Yeah, and perhaps a license to do business, collect sales tax, etc. Each state will vary on how you can name a business (Call it Studio K - fine, but without a DBA from your state a bank won't give you an account - so you can't cash teh checks!)
Insurance? A damned good idea, especially working with kids and shooting in a day care! (business liability is what you need, but you can get a lot more - equipment (camera, props, backdrops, computers, advertising liability, workers comp, etc)
I doubt you need any special licensing to photograph kids, but your state may be picky - you may need child-molester type clearances.
Gear - the 18-135 nikon lens sucks ass. Lose it. Literally, throw it away and get a better lens.
You'll want a backdrop (muslin or paper from $60 to $300, scenics are up to $1100), portable stands (savage, $125)
2 150 or better yet 300WS lights with umbrellas (60" are best) and a backup light, wireless triggers (pocket wizards are the gold standard - remember, you are shooting on locaiton - cheap triggers will fire when then see bluetooth, cell phones, even wireless mice!). A hair light is probably overkill - 2 lights are fine, and shoot at F8 to be safe. Soft even light is all you need.
YOU NEED BACKUPS of EVERYTHING. If you have only 1 lens and it quits half way thru you can't exaclty packup and come back in a few days when you get a new lens - or flash or pocket wizard, etc.
Product - the profit is in the prints NOT the photography part. Parents want prints! The regular school shooters here do it one way ($7/unit and you get no pose choice, limited product choices) and the preschool outfit does it much differently - and for a LOT more money (they give a proof sheet with 6 poses, 2 backgrounds, offer prints, christmas cards, framed stuff, pics on CD, etc - Packages up to $140!!.) If you can find out what's been done in the past that would help.
Plan A is you send home a price list and envelope the week before the shoot, parents put the order and money in teh envelope.
Plan B is a week after the shoot you send home a proof sheet, order form and envelope.
You MUST track what image goes to what kid when you shoot. Screw this up and you'll go insane.
Key to success with the the school is to disrupt them as little as possible - so be there as little as possible - one day for 3 hours and offer a makeup day 2 weeks or so later for retakes (plan A) or kids off sick (plan A and B)
If you get your WB set correctly you can shoot Medium JPG and just have to crop to the print they want. It's very helpful if you do NOT zoom in or out, or even move - same for the kids - an adjustable posing stool is a must to keep the top of their heads all the same height. Less important perhaps for you if you're not doing a yearbook full of head shots that need to be level!
What to charge - If you can find out what's been done in the past that would help. How many hours will it take you to do this? The shoot, yeah, but the PP, the putting together of the orders, delivery to the school, etc? It can add up FAST. And since this is your first time there will be a LOT of time in designing the forms, figuing on the workflow (editing, shooting, paperwork). sales tax - you probably need to charge it, but on top of the price or included? Does the school want a percentage? What lab will do your printing - and who will handle color correction? (they can do it, but it costs you more - the results will be more consistent if they do it) And it's ALWAYS prepay.
Generally you sell by the unit - that which fits on an 8x10 paper - 8 wallets, 4 4x5s, 2 5x7s, 1 8x10. Will your wallets be die cut or not? What about your other prints - cut apart or not? Bulk shooting like this they usually are not, but I like it when they are, so you have a decision to make there, amongst many others. Are you doing head shots, group shots (by class or age or siblings...), any shots of the teachers? Does the school want any prints (for their files, walls, etc?)
You will want some type of release built into the form you send to the parents so you can use the shots you take on your website and for your marketing.
How much can you make? Well, how many kids are there? Not 100% will buy, but the younger kids' parents buy more than the older ones, so maybe you'll get a 90% buy rate. Average per kid..depends on your pricing and what you sell. 1 unit for $15, 2 for $28, 3 for $35 gives them a real incentive to buy the 3 unit package - so you'll do a lot of those packages in this crude example. Again, keep it simple for your own sake! parents will be filling out the order form at home without your help - if it's too confusing they won't buy.
60 kids, 90% buy rate, 54 buy, $30 average - $1620 gross. 3 units/kid at $1.90 unit plus envelopes (for the order and delivery) figure $6.50/kid in costs, or $350. $1270 net. How many hours will it take you? Divide the money by 2 people and is it worth it for just the one gig?
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 20:48:42.
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02/16/2008 09:35:45 PM · #11 |
Wow. Prof, I love it when you get into these topics! You have asked a lot of questions that I guess I should be asking myself. . . I'm taking a Calculus class, and you've just made it seem like it's a really easy topic! :)
I'm thinking that I need to keep doing volunteer stuff until I get a lot of these types of questions answered for myself. More experience, more getting my name out there in the community.
But. . . .
I would like to take the opportunity to provide the 'grain of salt' (so to speak) to your post. It is evident, I think, to everyone that has been here for a little while that you speak from a great deal of experience. You have been there, done that, lived to tell the tale. I will not refute anything you have said, because it has not only the ring of truth, but the more important evidence of experience obtained by learning from your mistakes. It's true that there is way more to the business of photography than being a good photographer. What I do want to add, though is simple.
 Cynthiann, go. . . make your mistakes.
You have a job lined up.
You have talent.
You have the equipment to get the job done. (though, I really recommend the lens, and a backup!) :)
More importantly, though, you have the ability to ask the questions you need to ask. Take the post made by  Prof_fate and ask yourself the questions he posed. Answer them, take action based on those answers, and then go for it! Whatever mistakes you make, learn from them and do better the next time. I plan to. :)
I guess that what I'm really trying to say is that the post made above (or below, depending on your settings. . . ) has a lot of really good things to think about. Don't let the apparent complexity of what you're trying to do discourage you. Be honest with your clients about your level of experience, make sure you are in full understanding of what they want, and then do your magic!
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02/16/2008 10:22:56 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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A lot to absorb... I am in contact today with the lady who helped me incorporate my husband's business. She can help with all the legalities with name and tax ID and such. [check]
Insurance... haven't shopped, yet, but will. Have someone in mind through the other business. [to do list]
Gear... my lens sucks ass? Maybe that explains my challenge entries. That's actually good news. LOL
I'm looking into the 50mm 1.8.
Product... I have met with my sister since I started this thread. We have decided for now to leave printing up to SmugMug. Mistake maybe, but will do for a first job. We are going to have access to the parents e-mail to send them links and passwords to their childrens accounts on SmugMug and cross our fingers.
Keeping track of who is in what pic is great advice!
Release... we are coming up with an information/release form for them to fill out and sign before the shoot.
And thanks, Eric, for the lift in spirits. Can't get it right the first time, right? At least I have a first time to work off of.
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 22:23:52. |
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02/16/2008 11:09:55 PM · #13 |
cynthiann congrats on getting the job... Ya there's lots to absorb, but you can do it! like the others said, you've got the talent, equipment, and you've got the job... now just to figure out the execution.
Keep posting questions people will keep answering them, but most important is getting your feet in and doing it...
wishing you lots of luck
Edit: for bad spelling
Message edited by author 2008-02-16 23:10:10. |
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02/16/2008 11:14:40 PM · #14 |
| Insure yourself!!! At least liability insurance. If you can become a LLC. It does not cost to much to do and it will protect you from being sued directly. |
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02/16/2008 11:45:34 PM · #15 |
As a sidenote, we turned down the name
'Duck' Photography
"We take good aim" |
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02/17/2008 12:42:02 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
As a sidenote, we turned down the name
'Duck' Photography
"We take good aim" |
I dont know... it's pretty creative |
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02/19/2008 10:00:16 AM · #17 |
OK... so I haven't gotten a hold of the lady who is going to help us do the LLC thing. Is there a site I can go to to check on whether our name is available before I contact her?
Also, there are a few babies in the group. Any advice in photographing them? |
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02/19/2008 10:08:35 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
Also, there are a few babies in the group. Any advice in photographing them? |
get a baby poser or atleast a good pillow to help sit them up... also have something that makes noise... (like a puppet with bells in it) to keep their attention on you |
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02/20/2008 02:57:27 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
...Is there a site I can go to to check on whether our business name is available before I contact her?...
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bump :) |
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02/20/2008 03:00:00 PM · #20 |
I would start with an internet search... that will give you an baseline indication of what it out there in our area...
beyond that I know in Canada you actually have to go in and do a search for what you want in person... but hey, maybe you americans have a better system :) |
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02/20/2008 03:19:33 PM · #21 |
I beleive you have to pay to have an offical search of the name done. That is why I decided to be Jennifer Griffith Photography instead of having a ficticious name.
As for infants. I use a boppy pillow covered with nice fabric. They are cheaper then the baby poser that I have found and they work great.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 15:19:59.
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