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02/15/2008 02:26:20 PM · #1 |
In October I decided that I wanted to take better photographs and started learning all I could, added a lens and a flash, and made an effort to go out and shoot more often. I have also been submitting photos for critique and critiquing other peoples photos. This has been very valuable in that I get a better understanding of what makes a good photo.
My frustration arises because I go out and try to take better photos and I get home and am not happy with a single one of them. For example Wednesday I went to a local county park to take stream and waterfall photos. I took over 425 photos, got home and went through them and there was only 1 that I thought was a good photo. Maybe another 6 or 7 that were just OK and that was after a lot of cropping and level adjustment.
I've just started participating in the challenges, I like that it forces me to go out a take a photo, but again I'm frustrated by the quality of the photos I take. I have in my minds eye how the photo should look but I can't seem to take a photo that looks anywhere close. I submit them anyway but I know what they aren't that good. That is one good thing from critiquing others photos, I can now look at mine and tell that they suck. :)
So a couple of questions, is it normal to take hundreds of photos and only have a couple that you like? Could it be that I'm just not taking enough time when I take the photo? How long do you take composing and taking a photo?
If you care to look you can see the few that I liked of the stream/waterfall photos on my Flickr account. |
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02/15/2008 02:32:31 PM · #2 |
Let me see a few you didn't like. I think you may be being a bit hard on yourself.
Plus - especially with DSLRs you often need to do some post processing to really get a photo to shine through. The key is to see the potential in the photos to begin with and then bring out their best.
On the few pics you posted on flickr it seems the lighting is fairly flat. Try shooting closer to morning / evening for more dramatic lighting. |
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02/15/2008 02:32:36 PM · #3 |
Especially with landscapes, I think a lot of it depends on the timing. I'll eye up potential locations for a long time, then try and come back during interesting weather, or at hours of interesting light (sunrise/sunset/mist/particular clouds, etc.). Personally I find I've never taken a middle of the day landscape that I've liked (despite having taken hundreds and thousands)
It's the same with portraits. One way to do it is to just shoot away. But another way is to do it with someone you know, and really try and capture something. Look for the right light, try and catch that elusive expression you're after...
Don't give up though, that's the most important thing. And just play and enjoy yourself. |
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02/15/2008 02:35:33 PM · #4 |
you sound like i feel a lot of times when i get home from shooting. i think we are just hard on ourselves and expect a lot. i've been told by several people whose photography i admire that they take a lot of photos to just get a few great ones.
the ones you posted on flickr are very nice. i would try taking longer exposures of the waterfalls to get that smooth water look and compare and see how you like them best. |
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02/15/2008 02:38:16 PM · #5 |
| I believe it was Jerry Uelsman that I was reading about it and he considered an entire year successful if he created 12 images that he was proud of. |
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02/15/2008 02:39:05 PM · #6 |
I stopped submitting to dpc for a long time because I was frustrated with my pics as you are. I started taking more of them and 1 out of 10-20 was ok and 1 out of 100 was really WOW! I find that your pics are not all that bad. They need some Photoshop-love-and-care.
You should buy these 2 books... They surely will make you want to take more/better photos and you will start understanding photography much better... You skills will grow as well.
Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson
The Moment It Clicks by Joe McNally
Have fun doing it! |
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02/15/2008 02:42:09 PM · #7 |
Moose,
I think you'll find that at one time or another, most photographers have felt exactly like you do. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that most of the photos you will see have had at least some post processing. You can't expect to get those same results straight out of the camera.
Also, one thing that I'm just learning is that lighting is everything. I looked at your photos from Uvas Canyon, and they look pretty good to me, they just suffer from real flat lighting conditions (obviously out of your control). A lot of times I will try to scout locations, then go back when the lighting is more dynamic. I would imagine that if you went back to that location around sunset, you would get much better photos.
Hope this helps! |
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02/15/2008 02:43:03 PM · #8 |
as with everyone else ;) & take more pictures
you now have a baseline (1 in 500ish)
you will know when you improve when you double that
best to learn to criticizes yourself & it's easier to take than have others dump on you !! |
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02/15/2008 02:44:41 PM · #9 |
I browsed through your flikr account and I think the word 'suck' should not be used. You have good compositions, interesting subjects with lots of potential.
Using the waterfall shots as an example...my suggestion would be to reshoot them early in the morning or late evening when the light is less direct and softer. Many of your pics have direct sun which doesn't do justice to the scene by blowing out portions of the picture and keeping the shadow detail hidden. A shutter speed of >2-4 seconds works well for nice blurring. Here is one of mine at 8 sec.  DrAchoo has a bunch of good ones too. waterfall
Post the one you like best unedited and see if anyone takes a crack at the editing. I think your pictures have good potential that a little extra post would bring out.
Cheers, |
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02/15/2008 02:44:48 PM · #10 |
I feel this way sometimes as well. Some of the time I get back from shooting and I like 20-30% of my shots other times nothing at all. As you practice more and more you find that you might be saving more of the pictures. Since I started with digital photography, I've noticed a dramatic improvement in the number of photos I save. When I started I sucked. :P
For landscape, a LOT depends on the lighting. Typically its best to shoot near sunrise or sunset when the light is low.
As for those waterfall pictures, they look pretty good to me. I've been to Uvas Canyon before so I know how hard it can be to take pictures there. Its a real tricky spot compositionally.
Good luck and keep practicing! It takes a while. |
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02/15/2008 02:48:28 PM · #11 |
| BTW, you've inspired me to go check out Uvas Canyon, didn't reallize it was so close! Just need to figure out how to get in early or stay in late! ;) |
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02/15/2008 02:49:09 PM · #12 |
I agree, there's always room for improvement, but the Uvas Canyon photos show a good eye for an interesting shot as well as a feel for good composition.
I find when I sort through my photos after a session, that I normally toss about 20-30% of them in the "has some potential" folder. Of those, I usually end up editing and posting only a portion. Some I will edit, but not get to my satisfaction and they never leave my hard drive.
As I develop my eye and editing skills, I will sometimes go look through what I have done before and find a gem I overlooked the first time around.
Don't take the scores here too hard. What rates a mediocre low 5 here is a pretty decent photo, and stuff that rates in the in the high fives here will have your friends and relatives wowing over what a good photographer you are. The standards are higher than normal here, and you have to not take the scores too much to heart. |
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02/15/2008 02:50:26 PM · #13 |
I think really you are expressing a good thing. You have an idea of what you like. You don't feel you are making good images yet.
Good.
If you thought all 500 were great, you'd probably have no actual taste or discrimination. So its time to learn to use the taste that you do obviously have. Look at the ones that work, think about why they work. Probably more importantly, look at the ones that don't work, consider why they don't work. Use the EXIF info about the shots, consider the compositions, particularly consider the light you are using or not using effectively.
So now you've got two piles of information what works, and what doesn't work. Do more of the former and less of the later. Repeat.
I find the more I shoot, the fewer shots I take that I'm really happy with.
10 a year would be a good year, I typically get half a dozen a year that I like. I usually shoot about 10,000 to 20,000 to get that.
Message edited by author 2008-02-15 14:51:00.
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02/15/2008 02:51:04 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Moose408:
Frustrated that I suck at photography |
Hey, Moose - thanks for voicing your frustration. I feel your pain!
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02/15/2008 02:53:14 PM · #15 |
Some of my worst returns are when I go out and crack off a 4GB card with out even thinking about it. I find if I spend more time looking at the scene I want to photograph, looking at the angles, light, and subjects I want to include and seeing the finished picture in my minds eye before I shot I have better results. Working with a tripod also helps me as I have to take more time to position the camera before shooting.
edit to add...
Your shoots far from suck.
Message edited by author 2008-02-15 14:54:12.
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02/15/2008 02:59:02 PM · #16 |
Hey there,
Not sure who you're comparing yourself to when you say you suck.
My measuring stick for improvement is myself.
I look to see how much I've improved against myself at some point in the past - if I can see that my images are more appealing then I know I've grown.
Additionally I don't count my score here as a marker of improvement, my style is not always appealing to the masses so a challenge score doesn't tell me if I've improved in the areas that are important to me.
I find the comments I receive to me very helpful - around here if you ask for critiques you usually get them and I've learnt so much from the people I admire.
Additionally the one area I had to accept early on where I was lacking was not my equipment or images, rather my post processing abilities. In the past year and half I had studied (alone with books and the internet) photoshop as though I was taking it as a university course. I have REALLY watched what the people I admire here do and say and practised like made.
A great thread, I think that gives you a real clue about how much differencing processing makes is here....Before & After Ribbon Winners
When you see how much effort people have put into their images AFTER they've captured them it really hits home why some people's images lack lustre.
I peeked at a few of your images and they were lovely - they do seem to lack a bit of punch with processing - so maybe that's something you can practice.
Finally I had my most rapid period of photographic 'growth' by joining the monthly side challenges here. I found that when I committed to capturing and producing an image a day for a month and uploaded it with like minded people I received more advice than at any other time here. The monthly challenges are friendly, with many people wanting to grow too. Also forcing yourself to take an image a day is really great exercise.
Hope this helps. |
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02/15/2008 03:02:29 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
BTW, you've inspired me to go check out Uvas Canyon, didn't reallize it was so close! Just need to figure out how to get in early or stay in late! ;) |
Good luck, they close the gates at 6. I tried to stay late but they kicked me out! |
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02/15/2008 03:15:05 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Agaeris:
Originally posted by mpeters:
BTW, you've inspired me to go check out Uvas Canyon, didn't reallize it was so close! Just need to figure out how to get in early or stay in late! ;) |
Good luck, they close the gates at 6. I tried to stay late but they kicked me out! |
They do have a campground. So no problem staying late and taking photos, then getting up early and taking a few more. |
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02/15/2008 03:22:06 PM · #19 |
| What about parking outside the boundry and walking in?? |
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02/15/2008 03:22:29 PM · #20 |
| Not totally on topic, but related to this nonetheless. I do find that if I get primarily positive comments, but still a mediocre score, it is a sign that I have a good shot, but not one with broad appeal. Similarly, I can look at the distribution of votes and if they are bunched up mostly around 4 and 5, I know my image was lacking. If I have a more even distribution, with a bunch of high votes and low ones, that indicates some liked it a lot, and it's probably a good shot, but the broad appeal was just not there. |
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02/15/2008 03:58:07 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Moose408:
...My frustration arises because I go out and try to take better photos and I get home and am not happy with a single one of them....I've just started participating in the challenges, I like that it forces me to go out a take a photo, but again I'm frustrated by the quality of the photos I take. I have in my minds eye how the photo should look but I can't seem to take a photo that looks anywhere close. ...
So a couple of questions, is it normal to take hundreds of photos and only have a couple that you like? Could it be that I'm just not taking enough time when I take the photo? How long do you take composing and taking a photo?... |
Frustration? Ah, yes, phase one, a great starting point. Unlike most novices, you already know and feel what it's like to come at it all wrong. Now, that you know photography leads to frustration, when you see it as a means to an end, you should be all set to try looking at it as a process.
To answer your final questions (above)... Yes, it is, probably, normal to take hundreds of photos and end up with one or two you 'like', but
why settle for 'normal' and something you only 'like'?
Yes, it could be that you're not taking enough time when you take a photo. I can only assume you're not 'taking enough time', because you have fallen into a quantitative notion of time. Try to develop a qualitative measure of time, instead.
And to your last question (above)...
I started five years ago and... I just don't know when I'll be done composing that photo.
Message edited by author 2008-02-15 15:59:06. |
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02/15/2008 04:02:01 PM · #22 |
I also think that it is probably a more productive and useful way to spend your time if you try to define 'good' or 'bad' in terms of what you like, not what others like.
This of course has to change once you get into the realm of wanting to sell pictures, win contests or otherwise have others like your images, but I think the only real way to do that consistently is find out what you like first and do that as well as you can. If people like it then good. Otherwise, you'll just be faking a style that you hope other people will like, which I think gets a bit soulless and soul destroying after a while.
All hinges on what you actually are trying to achieve, if anything.
Doing the things that scare you can be a powerful way to improve too. Push yourself towards doing the things that you think 'oh, no, I'm not good enough to do that'
I don't particularly mean hanging out of planes or harassing gang members, but just those areas that you feel uncomfortable in - chase those fears and you'll push your boundaries and learn faster. Ask yourself what you wouldn't do and try doing that for an afternoon.
Message edited by author 2008-02-15 16:03:49.
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02/15/2008 04:02:34 PM · #23 |
| Do you have a polarizing filter? I have better luck with waterfalls and landscapes when I use my polarizing filter. Then you're not as likely to blow out the sky and the water. |
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02/15/2008 04:06:48 PM · #24 |
Wow, thanks for all the replies, some really good stuff there.
I'm not too concerned about my scores in the challenges, just as long as they either improve or if they are low I can anticipate that they will be low. That means I am at least able to self-evaluate. And it will be a good measuring stick as I improve.
I don't mind harsh critique and having people rip my images apart, I think it's a valuable learning tool and I don't take it personally, but on my first challenge image I was a little disappointed by how few people wrote a comment. I didn't know how it worked here and I whe I voted I wrote a comment for every single photo I voted on. I expected others to the same. I will continue my commenting not only to help others but because it helps me learn to really look at a photo and identify the issues.
As for post-processing I have spent a lot of time learning Photoshop and am getting good at running the application, but my problem is that I don't know what to change on my image to make it look good. I follow along on video tutorials so I know all the steps and as I watch it happen I say, yeah that looks better, but when it comes to my own photos I don't know what to try. Is it the saturation that is the problem, should I adjust the levels, or curves? Which area should I lighten vs. darken? etc.
My shooting time is limited and typically the only time I can go out an shoot is mid-day so perhaps I should focus on shooting something else that doesn't rely on outside light.
So I will continue to work on post-processing and see if I can figure out what to do there.
Thanks for all the great replies.
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02/15/2008 04:09:26 PM · #25 |
After looking at your photos, I would hardly say you "suck at photography." However, I too share your pain and here are the Top 5 things I do to help me through the agony and bring me close to the ever elusive Ecstasy. I don't know if they will help you, but I offer them too you anyways:
1. Ignore your score
Your score does not reflect how good your photo is...it reflects...ummm...::intentionally left blank::
2. Ask the experts...Be a PEST
Sometimes, if you admire someone's work, most excellent photographers are more than willing to share the wealth of their experience with you...(Personally, I pester  Gordon who VERY GENEROUSLY offered to mentor me and  Dsterner...THANK YOU, GORDON!!!).
3. Location...Location...Location
Pick locations that you really love to be in and wait for the best lighting. For me this is always a game of patience, and I have a few of my favorite haunts. (DPC has banned me from the Malibu Pier because I have so many shots from there...;-)...). Uvas Canyon is beautiful and after seeing your photos, I want to go now too!!
4. Tutorials...many sites such as Radiant Vista offer tutorials and downloads for your iPod for free. As a working Mom, I don't have alot of time...so I let the experts put it together for me on video such as this DVD by Randy Kerr
5. Practice...Practice...Practice
I have a tendency to get too comfortable in my zone so I try to practice on new subjects and experiment at different times of day as well.
The last challenge I entered "Panning"...I took over 100 shots and came up with ONE photo which is currently at a borderline 6.x. I am happy with it anyways because it was a challenge for me to take it.
So, if you set your goal, center your mind...and focus your camera on your dream...
I'm absolutely certain your dream will come true.
Personally, I quite enjoyed your Uvas Canyon photos...;-)
Good Luck! |
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