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10/07/2007 12:17:19 AM · #1 |
Could use a few tips from those that have been doing this longer than I, in order to not only get better shots, but a better ratio of "keepers".
I'm using a 20D with a 70-200 L 2.8/IS.
In shooting youth sports, mainly soccer, my ratio of in-focus shots is not great ... at least in my mind. Obviously, I like to be in front of the action as it is coming to me but I'm still not getting the shots I would expect or the number of them.
Today it was overcast here in the NW with light rain. I shoot Av and kicked up it up to 800 ISO to up the speed. The shots that are in focus are decent but again, they are the great minority. Shooting soccer in general I have found to be difficult because the ball is much lower than the the face of the target and when shooting wide open, or close to it, it just doesn't help the situation.
I am using hand-held right now until I get my monopod, so that is certainly part of it. But I could use some tips on what speed I should aim for during action shots like this, what aperture do many find gives the best results and how to increase the number of keepers.
Thanks for any and all help.
Jeff |
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10/07/2007 12:25:52 AM · #2 |
Are you using Auto-focus?
If so, you might try switching to manual focus and try to predict the action.
In auto-fucus you will get shots that drift in focus behind the subject as they move out of the focus points.
You can also try a combination by using auto-focus but keeping your hand on the focus ring and holding it when you shooting an action sequence if the situation allows. This is a bit more difficult IMO, but can get good results if you practice.
Also, try to get the one shot in an action moment rather than motoring through 8 or 9 in the hope that you'll get one or 2 good ones.
Shooting sports requires the greatest amount of concentration than any other photojournalism area of experise, IMO.
What shutter speed are you using?
The IS part of the lens is of little value in shooting action. Make sure you have at least 1/500 shutter speed to stop the action.
I hope this helps, good luck! |
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10/07/2007 12:26:57 AM · #3 |
I stick to center focus point and then put the camera in AI Servo mode and point it at something with contrast on the player (the number on their chest, their face, whatever I can lock onto).
Press and hold the shutter button through the entire sequence. Once the camera has locked on, it will try to follow the action. Be sure to let go of the shutter when done (whether you fired a shot or not) so that you can press it again to lock onto the next target.
I wouldn't think you'd need to go up to ISO 800 with the 70-200 2.8L lens, even on an overcast day. (as it starts to get dark at sunset, yes, but during the day time you should have lots of light at f/2.8)
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10/07/2007 12:35:53 AM · #4 |
One other comment. For the longest time, I was using the Canon 70-200 2.8L IS together with the Canon 2x extender (to get 140-400mm range). I thought what I was getting was "okay", but it just always seemed soft to me. I have since replaced that combo with the Canon 100-400mm 4.5-5.6L IS lens. It gives me nearly the same range, but a LOT sharper pictures.
Then, when dusk approaches, I'll switch to just the 70-200 lens (no extender) and shoot mostly close-up action since 200mm doesn't reach very far.
In either case, I'm shooting wide open the entire time (f/4.5-5.6 on the 100-400mm lens and f/2.8 on the 70-200mm lens). The point is to stop the action without boosting the ISO up too high. Plus, I like to work with as shallow DOF as I can get so that I can isolate the player I am shooting.
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10/07/2007 12:41:56 AM · #5 |
//www.setzler.net/2007/07/15/shooting-sports/
I wrote this a few months ago for this purpose.... You might also wanna check out MattO's sports shooting thread here.......
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10/07/2007 12:44:06 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Are you using Auto-focus?
If so, you might try switching to manual focus and try to predict the action.
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I think that's the worst thing you can do. If you have ever tried it, you will know why :)
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10/07/2007 12:54:38 AM · #7 |
Your equipment setup should be more than enough. The staffers at my paper both use 20 and 30d's, and although the focus doesn't seem to be as dead on as the 1d, it's fine for medium size prints (and they're WAY better at high ISO).
I always leave it on AI Servo mode, with the 1.5m-inf. setting on the lens, and all the AF points active. The center point aquires faster, but it's too easy to lose the focus on the face if it goes outside the realm of the auto-expand points the camera can choose from. And it seems to like to hit the player/rider right behind the one in front, too.. All of the points works very well for tracking all the way up until you fill the frame and shoot, and it aquires fast enough for me if I'm paying attention.
One other thing, I also use the Custom Function #4, set to 1 so that the AF is moved to the * button on the back of the camera. This is great, because it lets you press it for a second to focus on something and then recompose, and right after that hold it down to start tracking. You could flip the AF/MF switch on the lens, but I've personally got enough to worry about with composition, focus, exposure, moment, whether the ball/players/coach is about to hit me, etc.
Make sure you shoot wide open for sports, unless you have a good reason not to. Focus on the face, not the ball. We know what a ball is supposed to look like, and a white circle that's a little soft on the edges is better than an OOF face.
I don't really know what to say about moments, I don't have enough knowledge of games or experience to say what you 'should' look for. I just look for conflict, drama, action, clean backgrounds and a more or less full frame without cutting off limbs or the ball (absolutely important, btw). A 70-200 is a little short, I'm thinking a 300 2.8 on a 1-series would be perfect all around. With a 16-35 behind the net on a remote with the trigger on the hotshoe but turned off until they're close to scoring.
Anyway, read this guy's articles on his site, he's got some great information there about sports and just the field in general.
//markhancock.blogspot.com/
And if you don't lurk at SS already, start.
//www.sportsshooter.com/
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10/07/2007 01:19:50 AM · #8 |
Love that first B-ball shot and the headfirst slide into the base. I can't wait to get a chance to shoot both of those sports. That's a lot of light for a gym judging by the settings, was it a college game? |
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10/07/2007 01:24:06 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Love that first B-ball shot and the headfirst slide into the base. I can't wait to get a chance to shoot both of those sports. That's a lot of light for a gym judging by the settings, was it a college game? |
It was a high school state championship semi-final game. It was played in a professionally lit arena. There is only one local high school gym where I get to shoot in light that good... lol :)
The second basketball shot in that series is from that other high school gym...
Message edited by author 2007-10-07 01:25:02.
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10/07/2007 09:40:48 AM · #10 |
Know where your light is.
Ask yourself, are they too silhouetted? Then you may have to get more frontal. Unless you want the silhouette.
You can't just stand in the same place you plant your folding chair on the sideline. You actually have to observe your surroundings and figure out what is the BEST background, and where is the BEST light, and what is the BEST angle.
Soccer after half time switches sides, so why not just find the BEST position(s), and let the action come to you.
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10/07/2007 10:41:50 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Are you using Auto-focus?
If so, you might try switching to manual focus and try to predict the action.
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I think that's the worst thing you can do. If you have ever tried it, you will know why :) |
Oh, thrust me, I have. At the risk of sounding like an old timer, we used to HAVE to do this.
I shot sports in indoor areana's before AF was invented. Shooting with 1600 ISO film pushed to 3200 in the Astrodome.
Now, before you dismess me, I bought the first aufo-focus 300mm F2.8 Nikon lens to hit Houston back around 1990.
My point is, shooting sports is more than pointing your camera at the action and pushing the shutter. Although that seems to be case with a lot of "sports" photographers these days.
You need to know the sport you're shooting, know when and where action happens. If you are getting a lot of back focused pictures, then your autofocus may be hurting you more than helping.
If you understand the fundamentals of shooting sports, then you can use autofocus and fast motor drives to your advantage. If you don't, then you're shooting quantity over quality in the hope of geting a good shot.
Waiting for the peak moment and capturing it, predictive focus, follow focus techniques still apply today in shooting sports. if you want to separate yourself from the masses.
The OP was asking how to get more quality shots. I stand by me recommendations.
Message edited by author 2007-10-07 10:42:45. |
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10/07/2007 12:51:37 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
The OP was asking how to get more quality shots. I stand by me recommendations. |
Switching to manual focus when you have AI Servo capabilities is still bad advice. I agree with you that in the old days before autofocus, manual focus was the best and only option. AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open.
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10/07/2007 12:55:47 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
The OP was asking how to get more quality shots. I stand by me recommendations. |
Switching to manual focus when you have AI Servo capabilities is still bad advice. I agree with you that in the old days before autofocus, manual focus was the best and only option. AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
I agree, if you want to almost assure the OP get less and less in focus shots, then manual focus is the way to go. Centerpoint, Al servo focus, and learning to track a subject with a good lens will get your keeper rate going up each time you shoot. And the more you shoot the better you will become.
MattO
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10/07/2007 12:56:15 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
I kind of wonder if that is the difference in how we shoot today. Did such "fast glass" exist back then? Were sport shooters shooting wide open back then? Was the "sliver" of what is "in focus" so thin?
If it was, if they were, then the only way I can see Manual Focus as working at all, is if you anticipate "the one spot" where the action is going to happen. And you pre-focus on that spot and wait for the action (like a baseball player that dives over home plate, for example). I just don't see how this could be done with soccer (except maybe during a shootout) and other sports.
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10/07/2007 01:02:01 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
I kind of wonder if that is the difference in how we shoot today. Did such "fast glass" exist back then? Were sport shooters shooting wide open back then? Was the "sliver" of what is "in focus" so thin?
If it was, if they were, then the only way I can see Manual Focus as working at all, is if you anticipate "the one spot" where the action is going to happen. And you pre-focus on that spot and wait for the action (like a baseball player that dives over home plate, for example). I just don't see how this could be done with soccer (except maybe during a shootout) and other sports. |
Wide open was how they shot, and pre-focusing was the way to go. Its also the reason that film cameras had accessories called motor drives. Essentially burst mode for us digital photogs. Our staff photog still does shoot film and has a motor drive that can roll off nearly as many shot in a burst as my 1 Series, some Canon could do as many as your 1DMKIII. They just changed film after a big play and hoped they had it right. There were still some that shot less and had better results and used less film. Same thing today, John shoots a ton less then I do, is a better photographer, ends up with almost every shot he wants, needs. Skip shoots a ton more then I do and he ends up with what he wants and needs. Who is right? Who is wrong? Neither its their style and it works, and the end result is what matters.
MattO
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10/07/2007 04:30:46 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
The OP was asking how to get more quality shots. I stand by me recommendations. |
Switching to manual focus when you have AI Servo capabilities is still bad advice. I agree with you that in the old days before autofocus, manual focus was the best and only option. AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
Bad advice? Learning your craft to get consistant results using the modern techniques, bad advice? Please.
Relying on onl the automatic functions of your camera/lens without an understanding of what they're doing is bad adivce. What is the autofocus goes out in the middle of a shoot?
I'm not saying go back to manual focus, I wouldn't do that, but if the autofucus is working against you, then try something else and maybe get an understanding of exactly what is going on. Then maybe you start getting predictable results when using the auto features. |
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10/07/2007 04:49:14 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
I kind of wonder if that is the difference in how we shoot today. Did such "fast glass" exist back then? Were sport shooters shooting wide open back then? Was the "sliver" of what is "in focus" so thin?
If it was, if they were, then the only way I can see Manual Focus as working at all, is if you anticipate "the one spot" where the action is going to happen. And you pre-focus on that spot and wait for the action (like a baseball player that dives over home plate, for example). I just don't see how this could be done with soccer (except maybe during a shootout) and other sports. |
Fast glass has been around for quite a while. Follow focus was the best technique for capturing moving action. Footbal( American) required good follow focus skills. A lttile bit a predictive focusing worked in certain siutations. In Baseball, you could almost lock the focus on 2nd base with your long lens, and on home plate woth your short lens. Of course, 2nd base art was the least desirable by the editors. You could also try to prodict where the ball was going to be hit by knowing the players and their tendancies, pull hitters, power hitters, etc.
Basketball, you would work on follow focus through the lane with your short lens, and focus on the basket area on the far end with your long lens. Tennis had it's technique's too.
I didn't shoot much Soccer, but I'm sure those guys had their tricks and tips.
Autofocus has been a boon to getting people into the game, but the skilled guys and gals are still the ones that make the big bucks. |
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10/07/2007 05:17:33 PM · #18 |
Theses canon videos are pretty cool-- Geared more towards football though--
I'll admit-- watching these will give you lens envy..
Canon Vids
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10/07/2007 06:30:56 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
The OP was asking how to get more quality shots. I stand by me recommendations. |
Switching to manual focus when you have AI Servo capabilities is still bad advice. I agree with you that in the old days before autofocus, manual focus was the best and only option. AI Servo will significantly improve the results when shooting action that is moving towards you or away from you, especially when shooting wide open. |
Bad advice? Learning your craft to get consistant results using the modern techniques, bad advice? Please.
Relying on onl the automatic functions of your camera/lens without an understanding of what they're doing is bad adivce. What is the autofocus goes out in the middle of a shoot?
I'm not saying go back to manual focus, I wouldn't do that, but if the autofucus is working against you, then try something else and maybe get an understanding of exactly what is going on. Then maybe you start getting predictable results when using the auto features. |
Yes... bad advice. There is nothing wrong with learning how to shoot sports the old-fashioned way, but in a working environment, its bad advice.
Yes... you DID suggest to go to manual focus, hence this entire discussion.
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10/07/2007 06:49:23 PM · #20 |
Wow... I just don't think I could do it.
I mean ... playing with such shallow DOF and trying to do manual focus on action shots. For sure I definitely would need one of the old style "split focusing screens" in order to tell what is in focus. But even then, I just don't think I could keep up with the fast paced action that you get in soccer.
I figuring I'm doing good by watching the arc of a ball with my left eye, while pointing the camera to where I expect it to come down and zooming appropriately with my right eye.
Perhaps if I was shooting a fixed length lens so that I had one less thing to worry about? Nah... I'll stick with AI Servo and my zoom lens for now. :-)
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10/07/2007 09:01:24 PM · #21 |
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10/07/2007 11:15:02 PM · #22 |
Great examples.
I'm not very good at follow focus. I can kind of manage with my 55 1.8, but I need practice to do it with longer lenses.
I don't know how people manage to focus with split circle focusing screens. They're slower and smaller (and probably less accurate) than a real rangefinder patch, for crying out loud! And the rest of the screen has so much stuff over it to 'help' you see contrast, that it makes it too hard if you focus by look. There's an AE1 with 400 5.6 at the office that I want to try out at a game sometime, but handheld + a stiff focus ring + a crappy viewfinder = a nightmare. |
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11/04/2007 09:53:19 PM · #23 |
All of these were in AI Focus mode, with IS Mode 2 engaged...
 .  . 
 .  ...among a few others.
Any comments would be appreciated!
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