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08/20/2007 02:26:08 PM · #1 |
1) I all ready know doing business with friends and/or family is a bad idea.
2) My friend really needs help marketing her business and I have over 15 years working for a Fortune 500 marketing company. I understand principles of advertising, image and graphic design to communicate and connect with customers. I have offered to help and will not charge for my services.
3) We have a disagreement. (see #1)
I created the ad below for a postcard / mailer. We have also used it for a print ad in a local newspaper. My friend feels that every time she advertises in this publication that she should use a new ad. My advice is repetition gets results. Use the same format for the ad but tweek the text based on the current promotion that is being advertised (ie...First Class Free or Free Weekend, etc...). I also think this current ad is not perfect and can be improved by by making some other adjustments. I just don't believe it needs to be scrapped after one run.
I think one of the reasons she feels so strongly is because I am doing this for no charge and she doesn't understand the value of the work. Most company's use advertisements multiple times due to the expense incurred creating the ads. If more new ads are created advertising costs are increased substantially.
So if you where going to charge for the following ad what would it cost?
I'm talking everything except the printing. Photography, Image Licensing, Ad Concept, Ad Copy, Graphic Design, File Prep and Licensing / file prep for each subsequent use of the same ad.
Just curious if the numbers I have in my head are reasonable based on the experience of those who might offer similar services. Hopefully my friend will begin to understand the value of the work.
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08/20/2007 03:03:36 PM · #2 |
First, let's point out something very important in your #1:
"BUSINESS with friends is a bad idea..."
That is not in itself true, however:
"POOR business with friends is a bad idea..."
Always keep friendship separate, and your best bet is to write down every possible detail on paper BEFORE you ever do any work - especially if there is any chance you might ever charge them for ANYTHING you might do! Now, the next question is 'how to go forward from here?' You will sleep much better at night (and probably save your friendship!), if you simply TALK to the person - lay it all out on the table.
What you are wanting to tell her: "The stuff you want is a lot of work & I should charge you for it."
What you ARE telling her: "Lets keep the same format."
See the problem? I hope you understand that I don't mean to be pushy or 'brusque' about this matter. Rather, I'm simply trying to be straightforward, open, and honest - the way friends should be with each other. After all, we are only trying to help someone, right?
Good luck Michael.
PS - Don't forget that you don't HAVE to charge her money; do you (or a loved one) have any interest in Yoga? A trade for 'equal value' isn't too bad a deal, and both of you will come away with a lot more respect for the other's business efforts... |
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08/20/2007 03:23:58 PM · #3 |
You have no business shooting your friend's wedding.
...obviously that functionality needs some tweeking. ;-)
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Ok, I agree with you in that the same format could and should be used if the previous ad (using that format) was considered successful. Repetition may or may not get results, but it does create brand recognition (maybe that's one of the results you were referring to).
As far as costs - I have no idea - but you can't necessarily compare it to what a professional ad agency would charge if you are not a professional ad agency, IMO.
Regarding doing business with friends & family - it is hard to avoid sometimes. I do it, but I kick myself almost every time. Good luck. |
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08/20/2007 04:03:07 PM · #4 |
I have to agree and disagree with some of the other posts. Doing business with friends is a stepping stone to getting your name out there and getting more work. So you should do business with friends. But you have to make sure your friends can separate the business and friendship.
I posted here before about doing something for free for a friend and having it on paper, but the friend requesting more. I learned that it's best to be open and honest with that friend. In my case I had to let my friend know that i could not give him high resolution of all the photos to preview before making a choice without having a huge Copyright on the photos. It's not trust, it's business protection and the value of the work you are providing.
In your case, your friend seems to think that changing the design constantly is not much work. What you should do is let her know that changing the designs takes alot of work and that your work is something that other charge for. Remind her that you are doing this for her as a friend, but if she wants more designs a cost might be associated with it as it takes up time and resources.
I like the idea of looking at what others charge, but then applying a friend discout and let her see both prices, so she sees the value of the work and how you are working with her to get her what she wants as a friend. |
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08/20/2007 04:06:54 PM · #5 |
| I agree with you...repetition is key. But to a point. You don't want it to be so repetitive that it no longer sticks out. So I wouldn't say a totally new layout every time, but maybe some slight tweaking, maybe a color change, or something to that extent. |
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08/20/2007 04:21:57 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
As far as costs - I have no idea - but you can't necessarily compare it to what a professional ad agency would charge if you are not a professional ad agency, IMO.
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Just wanted to clarify. I'm not trying to compare anything to a Pro Ad Agency. i just thought there might be some other photographer's on DPC that offer services that include Ad layout / graphic design.
So an idea of how I would price this job.
If someone wants to license an image of mine for use in an ad there is usually a fee per image per ad. Generally First use is higher than subsequent uses. I don't charge for the shoot if it's less than 4 hours and the location is not too difficult. I try to get $250 per image on the First Use License. This ad uses 3 images. Thats $750. I try to get $500 per side for Design and layout. Lets just say for discussion this is a 1 sided ad. File prep for publication is included for the first ad. I would charge between $50 and $100 for file prep in additional publications. Licenses for using the images and ad (with no editing) in additional publications around $250 (total per additional license).
So I would start negotiating the cost of this add at around $1600 for a single sided ad used in two separate places. This is a starting point but everything is negotiable.
So that's how I would price it. Just wondering if this seems reasonable to others that offer similar services. |
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08/20/2007 06:02:04 PM · #7 |
Everyone you do business with is a friend in the sense that you develop some recognition, understanding, and trust. I don't mean You/you, I mean you/everyone. It's much more difficult & unpredictable doing business with enemies and/or strangers.
To keep what you do from being seen as a 'favor,' some kind of compensation must change hands. I give you something, you give me something. If you are doing it for nothing at all, it does no good to either party. You must get something back for what you give & your friend must give you something for what he gets from you. Otherwise it's not business, it's welfare. Your friend gets deeper & deeper into debt to you until he won't be able to stand the sight of your face.
Set up some ground rules & some lines of communication, some expectations & a way to get paid. Or let it go. Sooner is better than later. |
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08/20/2007 06:54:01 PM · #8 |
If you can't do business with friends and family, what's the good of having friends and family. I would much rather support a friend or family member than a total stranger that might or might not do as well a job.
And I disagree about it not doing anyone any if you don't accept some form of payment. I've done a lot of work for free over the years and the feeling and appreciation I've received from doing this was worth a lot more than anything I could have been paid. It just depends on what you want out of in life and what motivates you. Some people want the money, othes want the good feelings... for me (this is how I look at things), I think there is room for both. I apply some common sense to my choices though and I've rarely been taken advantage of or regretted it over the years. If you don't have common sense, go for the money. ;)
Mike
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