Getting the Shot or Meeting the Challenge

Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM

08/08/2007 07:32:13 AM · #1

In the challenges competition which is more important, getting a good photo or meeting the challenge.

There seems to be very little emphasis on meeting the actual challenge and more on hey I have a good photo I post that. For example on the Triumph challenge the winner is an excellent photo no question about that, but does it really meet the challenge?

It may have been a triumph to take the photo but it certainly does not depict a triumph at all.

I think much more emphasis should be placed on meeting the challenges when scoring even to the point that some photo should be disqualified as did not meet challenge.

PS I did not enter this challenge so it's not just sour grapes.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 07:32:31.

cloudsme

Canon EOS R5

08/08/2007 07:39:22 AM · #2

I think that shot was an example where the title really helped the score. It did look like a macro shot to me, and that would be a real challenge and Triumph to get a shot like that. Of course it is also a great shot. It's nice to see an out of the box photo do well. So many of us complain that they never do.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

08/08/2007 07:43:39 AM · #3

Originally posted by whiteflyer:

Interesting post. I agree with your assessment of the Blue for the Triumph challenge. Without the title the photo is still very nice, but says nothing about the challenge theme.

As to "which is more important, getting a good photo or meeting the challenge." - it really should be a combination of both IMO. However, there are times when an excellent photo with a thin (if any) connection to the challenge can rise to the top - it's rare to see a poor photo that nails the challenge theme 100% make it anywhere near the front page.

This is all subjective to personal opinions (what meets the challenge to one, doesn't to others, etc...) - and is a volatile subject at times.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

08/08/2007 07:44:41 AM · #4

Originally posted by cloudsme:

It's nice to see an out of the box photo do well. So many of us complain that they never do.

OOB?! There wasn't a container around for miles on that one. :P

whiteflyer

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Nikon AF Nikkor 28-85mm 1:3.5-4.5

08/08/2007 02:45:34 PM · #5

Originally posted by glad2badad:

However, there are times when an excellent photo with a thin (if any) connection to the challenge can rise to the top - it's rare to see a poor photo that nails the challenge theme 100% make it anywhere near the front page.

A poor image that meets the challenge should always beat a great image that does not, otherwise why have a theme in the first place. In fact scrap all the editing rules and just have a photo of the week competition.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

08/08/2007 02:48:02 PM · #6

I see plenty of shots that do the opposite - they meet the challenge but don't seem to bother to get a good shot.

It isn't a scavenger hunt. So I see plenty of emphasis on meeting the challenge but less thought put in to taking a good photo that meets the challenge.

In the particular case mentioned here, the photo embodies the theme better than many, even if it doesn't depict it. Some pictures don't need titles to make sense, many do though - otherwise newspapers would have a whole lot less text around the photos.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 14:50:12.

electrolost

Nikon D200

08/08/2007 02:49:01 PM · #7

a title shouldn't make a picture, a picture should make the title

Rebecca

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5- 5.6G ED DX

08/08/2007 03:14:22 PM · #8

I didn't vote, but the hummingbird shot would have gotten a 5 from me - actually a point higher than I would generally give an excellent photo that doesn't meet the challenge. I even stuck it in my favorites, but it still would have garnered a mere 5, delivered with a sad note: "Why didn't you save this for a free study instead?" That it would score so high in spite of the obvious and apologetic shoehorning is mindboggling.

I think of it this way: when we were in school, we were sometimes assigned to write papers with a particular theme. If the paper topic was butterflies and I wrote an essay on astronomy instead, it would not get the highest grade in the class. In fact, it would probably get an F - maybe a D if it was well-written and the teacher was overly generous. The students who bothered to try would be rewarded much more favorably.

At DPC, we're given a topic and asked to submit a composition about it. If we turn in a beautiful composition that all but ignores the topic assigned, why should it score well? And why on earth should it score better than good compositions that DID address the topic with significantly more than a clumsy title that only shows us that the photographer already knew he wasn't meeting the challenge at all? The whole point is to create a good composition, either within certain technical parameters or projecting a certain theme. It has to be good AND meet the challenge. THAT is what gets an A.

In my world, anyway.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 15:15:37.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

08/08/2007 03:17:58 PM · #9

Originally posted by Rebecca:

At DPC, we're given a topic and asked to submit a composition about it. If we turn in a beautiful composition that all but ignores the topic assigned, why should it score well? And why on earth should it score better than good compositions that DID address the topic with significantly more than a clumsy title that only shows us that the photographer already knew he wasn't meeting the challenge at all?

Because DPC is mob rule, that's why. Any moron can come on and vote any way they like. Were there some sort of panel of (revolving term) judges determining by majority vote what was on topic or not, then the vote focus would be forced to shift accordingly. But that won't happen because too many people would cry that their creativity is being hampered.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/08/2007 03:19:52 PM · #10

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by Rebecca:
At DPC, we're given a topic and asked to submit a composition about it. If we turn in a beautiful composition that all but ignores the topic assigned, why should it score well? And why on earth should it score better than good compositions that DID address the topic with significantly more than a clumsy title that only shows us that the photographer already knew he wasn't meeting the challenge at all?

Because DPC is mob rule, that's why. Any moron can come on and vote any way they like. Were there some sort of panel of (revolving term) judges determining by majority vote what was on topic or not, then the vote focus would be forced to shift accordingly. But that won't happen because too many people would cry that their creativity is being hampered.

From a guy with a 4.0 average vote given.

(routerguy666 always hates my work! lately anyway) ;-)

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

08/08/2007 03:21:21 PM · #11

Originally posted by Rebecca:

... The whole point is to create a good composition, either within certain technical parameters or projecting a certain theme. It has to be good AND meet the challenge. THAT is what gets an A.

In my world, anyway.

Sounds about right to me. :D

Atropos

Nikon D40

08/08/2007 03:25:46 PM · #12

I rated the blue ribbon winner a 6. It obviously would have scored quite a bit higher (8 or 9) if it was entered in a challenge that had anything to do with it. I whole heartedly agree that this photo should not have won the blue ribbon. If I knew that I could just name my photo "My personal triumph" and put in a picture of damn well anything I want, then I would have had a few really good shots to choose from. I'm not upset because he did better than me, my triumph entry as still my personal best and I'm happy with it.

I just think us DPC voters should really, seriously, honestly start taking meeting the challenge more into account when voting.Like whiteflyer said, why bother even having a theme. Just make two open free study challenges and two members free study challenges every week.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

08/08/2007 03:27:02 PM · #13

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by Rebecca:
At DPC, we're given a topic and asked to submit a composition about it. If we turn in a beautiful composition that all but ignores the topic assigned, why should it score well? And why on earth should it score better than good compositions that DID address the topic with significantly more than a clumsy title that only shows us that the photographer already knew he wasn't meeting the challenge at all?

Because DPC is mob rule, that's why. Any moron can come on and vote any way they like. Were there some sort of panel of (revolving term) judges determining by majority vote what was on topic or not, then the vote focus would be forced to shift accordingly. But that won't happen because too many people would cry that their creativity is being hampered.

From a guy with a 4.0 average vote given.

(routerguy666 always hates my work! lately anyway) ;-)

Whatever. Fucking waste of time to participate in these threads as inevitably someone posts my avg vote which somehow invalidates my opinion immediately.

08/08/2007 03:32:58 PM · #14

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by Rebecca:
At DPC, we're given a topic and asked to submit a composition about it. If we turn in a beautiful composition that all but ignores the topic assigned, why should it score well? And why on earth should it score better than good compositions that DID address the topic with significantly more than a clumsy title that only shows us that the photographer already knew he wasn't meeting the challenge at all?

Because DPC is mob rule, that's why. Any moron can come on and vote any way they like. Were there some sort of panel of (revolving term) judges determining by majority vote what was on topic or not, then the vote focus would be forced to shift accordingly. But that won't happen because too many people would cry that their creativity is being hampered.

From a guy with a 4.0 average vote given.

(routerguy666 always hates my work! lately anyway) ;-)

Whatever. Fucking waste of time to participate in these threads as inevitably someone posts my avg vote which somehow invalidates my opinion immediately.

Well you seem to have quite a lot to say about the quality of the voters at DPC. You are vocal about what you dislike about DPC and its membership on many occasions. So when someone points out a fact that seems to conflict with your posts, you get offended?

Lighten up, I was joking anyway.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Peace

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/08/2007 03:39:11 PM · #15

Originally posted by scarbrd:

What does my avg vote have to do with anything I posted? Or anything posted in this thread for that matter? How does it conflict with offering a way to screen for on-topic submissions and then pointing out how said suggestion would never come to pass?

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

08/08/2007 03:41:42 PM · #16

Congratulations to the winner, he took an excellent shot used a shoe horn via the title and we voted it the best.

I think he was very clever in his use of the title and I see nothing wrong with it.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

08/08/2007 03:46:25 PM · #17

I was happy to see that one win. If anything DPC is too restrictive in its interpretation of challenges. Heck, I'm actually nervous about the possibility of entering a Seascape in Rural Landscape because the word "country" may not denote "water" (rather than simply "not urban"). How's that for friggin neurotic thinking?

If you can swing a ribbon with a title, then I'm all for it. If anything your image has to be even better, because there are bound to be some people who will vote it lower for not being dead down the middle of the challenge interpretation. You only need a few of those voters to take you out of ribbon contention.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/08/2007 03:52:35 PM · #18

It doesn't make much never mind to me because I almost never agree with the ribbons. I am suprised to see a shoehorn get the blue ribbon, though!

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

08/08/2007 03:53:09 PM · #19

I ignore the title (most of the time). The shot should speak for itself. It may have been the photographer's triumph but without the title, does this image really say that? Maybe.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

08/08/2007 03:53:13 PM · #20

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Well you seem to have quite a lot to say about the quality of the voters at DPC. You are vocal about what you dislike about DPC and its membership on many occasions. So when someone points out a fact that seems to conflict with your posts, you get offended?

Lighten up, I was joking anyway.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Peace

What does my avg vote have to do with anything I posted? Or anything posted in this thread for that matter? How does it conflict with offering a way to screen for on-topic submissions and then pointing out how said suggestion would never come to pass?

I quote from your earlier post

"Because DPC is mob rule, that's why. Any moron can come on and vote any way they like."

Calling DPC voters 'mobs' and 'morons' along with your trollish average can make people wonder where you'e coming from.

Your comments, at least in my experience, are rarely constructive and often insulting.

Your work is good, but you seem to think if you don't like an image or a particular effect then everyone else is stupid for liking it.

I quote your profile page

"Yeah, my average vote is low. Stop submitting shitty photos and maybe it will go up. I'd be as happy as you about that."

You think you have the credentials for that kind of motto? I don't

but again I say my original intent was lighthearted. Sorry if it didn't come across that way. But for someone that gives out criticism as harshly as you do, you sure are thin skinned when a little comes back.

Spizzer

Nikon D3

08/08/2007 04:15:25 PM · #21

I want to weigh in on this topic as it is my image driving the discussion.

This is all very ironic from my point of view as I have always heavily considered "meeting the challenge" when I am scoring images. I have scored many excellent images low because I cannot see the connection between the image and the challenge, or that the title didn't fit the image and tried to force it into the challenge. Because of this I truly understand, and respect the opinions of those that don't think this image should have won.

Here is how I ended up submitting this image for this challenge:

I had taken many shots of the hummingbirds with a telephoto and normal lens and they were just your average hummingbird shots. I got a wild hair and challenged myself to get a shot with a macro. Well, after several days, and many shots, I ended up with three I really liked. I had already submitted a shot to the open challenge and I was sitting there looking at this shot and it just hit me. The shot represented a major triumph to me and it fit perfectly, in my mind, to the challenge. I knew from the start that it would be viewed as forced by many, but my reaction was "I don't really care" because it was such a personal triumph to me that I submitted it as only a personal celebration of sorts to the accomplishment.

I don't know if that makes sense to anybody, but that is the honest story behind the image and how it ended up in this challenge.

I have received so many kind comments and remarks on the image, the satisfaction it has given me is all that really matters. The ribbon pales in comparison. I really enjoy this group, and it has pushed me far as a photographer. I hope to continue. Thanks to all.

Regards,

jeff

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/08/2007 04:20:48 PM · #22

"Description
Take a photo representing triumph or success."

Sorry Jeff the description did not say "Personal Triumph" so DNMC!!!!

:-P

j/k

It is a rockin' shot and should have won. All you DNMC'ers out there who focus so intently on narrowly defining the challenge description are not only stifling your own creative possibilities but are missing what could be an amazing image because of a narrow mind.

Free your mind and your ass will follow....

That is all.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 16:33:59.