Considering joining the armed forces?

02/03/2007 11:00:57 AM · #1

When I typed "military career" into Google, I found page after page of biased sites trying to sell the military as a career. About.com seemed to cover most of the down sides, but the understatement is rich:

= It's a commitment that once agreed to cannot be broken without serious consequences.
= Once you are in the service, you have no real freedom. Many decisions are made for you without your input.
= There is the possibility that you could make the supreme sacrifice for your country.
= You have no real privacy, especially in the beginning.
= The military decides your clothing and your hair style.
= There is the possibility that you might be called upon to kill someone or cause someone's death.

Let me rephrase this in a non-PC way: your freedom will be taken away, you could be killed, and you will be turned into a killer.

But since I have no military experience, I dug up some links with more credibility than I have. I realize that, at least in the U.S., the job market sucks, especially for the poorer demographics, but for those of you making the extremely important decision of whether or not to pursue the military as a career, please take the time to check out the following links:

here are the accounts of others who enlisted:
//www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/diaries.html

I would also suggest taking a look at the "Before You Enlist" section as a whole:
//www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

Well, that's all I have right now. My Google searches get flooded with military sites. But I will find more. And I ask the SC not to move this to rant until CalliopeKel's thread gets moved to rant. Because, as a side-effect, that thread is promoting the military as a career, I felt the need for a thread to discuss the opposing point of view without disrupting her thread. It's important that both threads be equally available because there are people here of military age.

02/03/2007 11:02:31 AM · #2

plus, rather than a debate on this topic, I'd like this thread to be used for veterans to describe their own experiences personally and honestly, or for links to such accounts.

Zippy

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

02/03/2007 11:09:08 AM · #3

"= Once you are in the service, you have no real freedom. Many decisions are made for you without your input."

This can mean being sent to fight in a war that you don't believe is right.

Spork99

Canon EOS M6 Mk II

Canon EF-M 22mm STM Lens

02/03/2007 11:36:39 AM · #4

Originally posted by posthumous:

= It's a commitment that once agreed to cannot be broken without serious consequences.
= Once you are in the service, you have no real freedom. Many decisions are made for you without your input.
= There is the possibility that you could make the supreme sacrifice for your country.
= You have no real privacy, especially in the beginning.
= The military decides your clothing and your hair style.
= There is the possibility that you might be called upon to kill someone or cause someone's death.

Let me rephrase this in a non-PC way: your freedom will be taken away, you could be killed, and you will be turned into a killer.

Military service in this country is not compulsory it's voluntary. Despite the existence of the selective service, the chances of the draft returning are so small, they're almost nonexistent, despite the occasional rumbling to that effect.

Joining the military is like any other career decision, it has positives and negatives. If you can't accept the negatives, don't join. DUH!?!? It's not like the downsides are hidden or non-obvious to anyone who hasn't been under a rock for the past 10,000 years.

Let me rephrase this simply: If you don't want to join, don't join.

NathanWert

Canon EOS-90D

Sigma 18-250 f/3.5 - 6.3 DC OS HSM

02/03/2007 11:39:08 AM · #5

I was in the Air Force from 1992 until 1996.

I was stationed at Andrews AFB, MD. Along with 4 other places for less than two months.

I left the military not because I was afraid of killing, or being killed, and not even for being told what I could and could not do. I left the military from boredom.

I volunteered to go to: Bosnia, Somalia, Iraq, Haiti, and everywhere else we were being deployed during that time. I didn't go to any of those places. I was sent TDY to Avon Park Bombing Range, FL and Biloxi Mississippi.

Once I got out though, I have kept on thinking about rejoining. I even consider it now that I'm 37, but I think their cut-off is 36.

If it helps any I came from an upper middle class family (on paper we were worth over a million dollars at one time), and I had all sorts of other routes open to me. I didn't even JOIN the military until I was 22 years old.

It was a completely conscious and voluntary decision on my part, knowing that I could be killed or be called upon to kill someone else. However, I believe that even though I was bored while in the service my time was well spent in the service of my country and that everyone in the US should be made to either join the military or do some sort of Public Service.

The military is not for everyone, that's why it's voluntary.

ace flyman

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/03/2007 11:46:33 AM · #6

Going down to GA next week for my sons boot camp graduation. I have a brother who made a career in the services. Spent 15yrs in Japan and loved it. Another spent 4yrs in the Navy and travel the world, saw things I'll never experience & another who was in Vietnam and is still screwed up.
I'm proud of them all and all the kids who just by joining is protecting our freedom and life style.
I'll just go with my sons decision. He's 22yrs old, not a kid just out of high school. He researched for 3 months and finally made the decision. He had no direction in life other than he loves to fish. In the current state of the world he new it was very possible he might have to go to war. He enlisted for 6yrs. Once out of boot camp he goes to Tx for 18mos. to train in the medical field. Yes, he has no control over his life the first 4mos. Once in TX, it's more like a job, he can live on base or off. On his own time he can do and dress anyway he wants. When on the job he f ollows the routine of the arm services. After the 6yrs of enlistment he will be a register nurse. The armed services has given a career path and a direction in life. He'll decide at the end of his enlistment if he will make a career out of it.
It's like anything in life. What you put into it is what you'll get out of it.
Hope this thread is still going when I get back. I'll share some of the photos.
I myself wasn't interested in the services. As you can tell, I stand behind our troops even in war times, right or wrong.

Proud to be American

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 11:47:06.

rossbilly

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

02/03/2007 12:12:06 PM · #7

::sigh::

May I ask what causes the OP such an aversion to our American military?

((BTW OP - i have literally caused the inside of my mouth to bleed, in order to ask that with politeness and respect so, please, if you don't mind, allow me the same courtesy with your response...))

RainMotorsports

Nikon D60

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR

02/03/2007 12:13:48 PM · #8

It's okay DynaCorp is offering Police Officer positions in Iraq starting around 106,000 a year!..... Too bad you probably wont live long enough to pick up your second pay check.

CalliopeKel

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

02/03/2007 12:17:43 PM · #9

You are really conjuring up a far stretch to say that 'my thread' is a thread about military being promoted as a career. I made a 2 sentence comment about what the military is about and has done for my son since so much about it is thought to be about killing or being killed. I just pointed out a few positives and clarified a few stereotypes.

The men and women who end up joining the United States Military are from predominantly conservative backgrounds. They are raised in homes where family members have served much of the time. There is nothing I could say here to sway someone to give their life to our country. Like I said in my thread. It's a calling, not just something someone does by something they read in a post online somewhere.

I am flattered to think my thread has that much power of persusion, but I do not really agree, nor was that my intent.

You listed alot of negatives of the commitment of serving, yet comparable sacrifices are there when you agree to take a job, join a club or sports team or any other organized event.

This thing about privacy in the beginning? = Hogwash.

The part about your hair. = I know the Marines have several forms of acceptable hairstyles. (but you really should understand that short hair has a purpose if one is called to duty. Long hair that is in your face/eyes is a danger to anyone operating heavy equipment or weaponry.)

The Military deciding your clothing = Well I guess you could wear your designer jeans and hawiaan shirt, but somehow that just sounds dumb. When you are off duty, they wear civilian clothing just like you and I.

The military deciding what you do without your input = My son was able to test for and choose his MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) and alot of control over what he did and continues to do with his military enlistment.

I wouldn't let the 'internet' pollute your mind about what it's like to be an enlisted person. Talk to real men and women who have served personally. Thats the best source.

*edit- checked out those links....is that the best you could come up with? Doubtful they are credible sources. You can find anything bad about ANYONE OR ANYTHING ANYWHERE on the net which is what you seem to be doing.

I wonder if any teachers have horror stories, or God forbid Doctors!!

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 13:27:05.

MikeJ

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/03/2007 12:35:59 PM · #10

I'll just say that posthumous's assumptions on the "understatment" is just plain rubish. I was in the Air Force from 1972 to 1981. The military is not for everyone, but neither is being a doctor, lawyer, teacher, football player or photographer. And you can get hurt or killed in any of those professions as well. And I've had more freedom and choice in the military than some people have in civilian jobs. And gotten a lot more out of it than a lot of civilian jobs.

Mike

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 12:37:28.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

02/03/2007 12:48:23 PM · #11

Moving to Rant.

asimchoudhri

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

02/03/2007 12:53:17 PM · #12

Originally posted by posthumous:

[note: i added numbering to allow referencing]

- 3, 5, and 6 could be said for a police officer
- 1 is true, no doubt. however, a commitment is a commitment, especially if you know the terms ahead of time.
- 2 an 4 are linked, and i would like to think are things that people understand these things ahead of time.

a large percentage of people joining the military have family or friends who have previously served, so i do not think that people make their decision without being aware of these and other concerns.

BakerBug

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-200 f/3.5 - 5.6 USM

02/03/2007 12:54:28 PM · #13

I served in the Unites States Marine Corps and I can say that the below statements are absolutely true:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Now let me offer some insight to each of these.

1. A commitment is a promise. When you make a commitment it is not something that should be taken lightly. You make a commitment when you get married or take out a loan. If you expect to get out of a commitment without serious consequences, you had no business making a commitment in the first place.

2. The military is not about personal freedom for those who serve. It is about protecting the personal freedoms of those who choose not to serve. When you join the military, you are not becoming part of a social club or civil rights group. You are agreeing to become a protector of those social beliefs and civil rights.

3. If you join the military, and do not consider the fact that you may have to make the ultimate sacrifice, you have no business joining in the first place. When you join the military, you need to be able to look into the mirror and tell that person you see: "I love my country and I believe in what it stands for. I love the people in my country and their right to live out their lives with the freedoms that others will try to take away. I am willing to give my life, if necessary, to protect this."

4. The military does strip away a lot of your privacy. When you get married, you do not maintain the same level of privacy with your spouse that you maintain with the rest of the world. This brings you closer together and develops trust. When you are in the military, it is critical that you develop trust with those serving beside you. You will be responsible for protecting their lives, and they in turn are responsible for protecting yours.

5. Clothing and hair style... This one made me laugh. Yep, this is absolutely true. You definitely should not join the military if your hair style is more important to you than guaranteeing a way of life for your family and friends.

6. If you don't think that the military is a weapon, then why would you join? Even if you are not a rifleman or bomber pilot, you are supporting those who are. The military's fundamental job is to destroy the enemies of the United States. If you don't agree with this, you have the freedom to choose another line of work.

Thank you for reading this far. The military is not a job for everyone, but it is there to protect everyone. If you don't like the military, that is your right. A right which is safeguarded by that same military. If you don't agree with the policy of the Unites States, that is not the military's fault. The GOVERNMENT is responsible for that.

Chiqui

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

02/03/2007 01:03:43 PM · #14

I spent 5 years in the military and while I was a Hospital Corpsman, hence noncombatant, I never experienced most of those things the OP talks about. It is true that once you sign the dotted line you are fully committed and the contract is not easily broken but it is neither the end of the world nor the end of your life as a free human being.

For most people, the military is just like any other job, you show up at 8am and go home at 5pm or whatever your schedule is. After work, you go home and live a normal life. It is true that there is no privacy in bootcamp but then again, it's not summer camp and it's not meant to be a vacation. As a matter of fact, bootcamp was by far the hardest thing I've ever had to do/go through in my life but, believe it or not, it really does change a person. You know what they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and that is definitely the case with basic training.

I chose to live in the barracks when I was stationed at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, MD and for the first year, I shared a room with a kitchenette and a bathroom with one other girl. After that, I was given my own room. No complaints about privacy.

During my time in Maryland, I was deployed twice. The first one was a fun deployment. It was a NATO exercise in the Baltic combined with a humanitarian mission. We went to the UK, Lithuania, Latvia and finally Estonia where we spent a week working with the local hospitals and seeing low income patients on our ship, giving them glasses and doing some routine dental work. I loved every minute of it, the work, the travel, everything.

The second time, it was to the Gulf just before the war started. Both times it was on the USNS Comfort. We stayed in the Gulf for a while getting patients from Iraq, friends and foes alike. We treated them the best we could and got by emotionally. I do admit it was hard even though all I was doing was helping them medically.

After Maryland, I was sent to Naples, Italy where I spent the remaining 2.5 years of my enlistment. Life in Naples was good! I volunteered to go on several other deployments but was never sent anywhere else. Shame. So, that time was spent working a few 12 hour shifts a week in our ER as a Corpsman/EMT/Ambulance driver. Not much different from the civilian counterparts.

Yes, I had to wear uniforms and I have to do my hair a certain way and I had a few choices made for me but this isn't much different than many civilian jobs out there. The pay was good, especially for someone without a degree AND I had no bills since everything was paid for so I all my income was disposable income. I lived in the barracks in Naples too which were much nicer than the ones in Bethesda. They were virtually small two bedroom apartments for two people except you didn�t get a living room. I did get extra allowances and other things but my last full year in the Navy I made over $49k. I know PLENTY of people in good civilian jobs that do not make that much money in a year.

So, why did I leave the Navy if it was so good you ask.....well, unfortunately, I was disillusioned with it, like many people are with their civilian jobs. Not to mention that I failed the fitness tests thanks to my arthritis and total hate for running. On top of that, I was getting married and moving to England where the US Navy doesn't have many bases. Could I have done it for 20 years? Probably not but I don't regret going in. I now have a $70k college fund so I don't have to worry about paying for college. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

So, while the military isn't for everyone, it's not as bad as some people make it seem. Yes, there are the unlucky ones that go to war and die but you could just as easily die on a drive by shooting. If my kids wanted to go to the military, I wouldn't discourage them.

I am curious as to why the OP felt the need to start this thread on that note.

June

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 16:04:00.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

02/03/2007 01:04:51 PM · #15

Originally posted by posthumous:

When I typed "military career" into Google, I found page after page of biased sites trying to sell the military as a career.

...and you would be surprised by this. Ever think that since this is a volunteer organization that they have to place ads to entice people to apply.

Normally one would think that advertisements would focus on the good points of an organization or product...Personally, I haven't had the good fortune to see too many
"Don't buy this crap ... it sucks" ads lately.

Just another man's perspective. I could go on, but I won't.

Ray

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 13:06:05.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

02/03/2007 01:07:58 PM · #16

Originally posted by rainmotorsports:

It's okay DynaCorp is offering Police Officer positions in Iraq starting around 106,000 a year!..... Too bad you probably wont live long enough to pick up your second pay check.

Not true. My cousin's husband has been over there on and off for about 3 years now. Making more than that, I might add. ;) I'm not sure what "company" he is with, but it is in a law enforcement capacity, and with his military background (he was a green beret), I seem to remember the amount of something like 15 - 20,000 a month. Pretty good pickings to me.

I've never been in the military, so my "experience" is from watching my relatives that have been.

I had one cousin that was nothing more than a brat. he was a pain in the neck and drove me batty. When he announced he was going into the military, I snickered to myself and expected a dishonourable discharge before Boot Camp was over. That was close to 20 years ago. He is now Delta Force in the US Army, having worked his way up through Green Beret, Army medic and a host of other stuff. The military became his career, otherwise he probably would be a felon right now.

Another -- a friend's son signed up in the Reserves in the Summer of 2000 or 2001. They were going to pay his college tuition. He started college, then had a "bit" of interruption for two tours in Afganistan. However, he is now finished, and ready for his next career step and his education was free.

So, my point? Each of these guys knew exactly what they were getting into, and yes, it either became their career, or helped them no their way.

As far as the downsides, I'm in education, and well, some of those are true for teachers as well.

I commit to being a teacher and

1. if i "quit" there are serious consequences (like not being hired anywhere for a while).
2. the board of education chooses a lot of stuff for me -- when to work, when not to. when i can each lunch, waht i can teach, etc.
3. okay, this one doesn't apply to education, but for those in the military, it probably isn't seen as a downside, either.
4. teachers don't have a lot of privacy.
5. dresscodes
6. or really really wishing you could just express your true feelings without having to look professional.

With the exception of one or two of them, they all could be considered downsides for any job where you work for someone else. And once I entered education, I had to stay in education or get more training. Some of my friends/family in them military have come out with so much experience in things, they could do just about anything they wanted.

It is NOT a choice for everyone, and it is by no means an easy choice. But to say that it is not a career is, well, simply put, wrong. I think that it is a valid, and smart, choice for a number of young people.

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

02/03/2007 02:21:36 PM · #17

I spent 10 years in the Navy, 1974 - 1984, and was probably the best thing I ever did, and HIGHLY encourage young men & women to join if they have no clear path for their future after getting out of High School. It gives them a chance to grow up, get out of the home town, learn a bit about themselves, how to deal with other people, learn responsibility, travel, learn a trade perhaps that will be their passion, while having a roof over their head, medical & dental benefits, an income, all of which they probably will never get the opportunity to do/get if staying in town and have to get "a job" to survive.

Today's military is a far cry from what it was when I was in, but still, a young man/woman coming out of High School that doesn't have the means to go to college, hasn't got their head screwed on right yet, should consider it.

I was lucky being able to travel nearly the whole world during my 10 years, something I would never have the opportunity to do normally, and once a person jumps into "life" after school, usually won't either.

02/03/2007 03:04:36 PM · #18

My thanks to the vets who have contributed so far, though I would prefer to hear from vets who've actually been to war.

And

CalliopeKel, if you think conservative families with a tradition of military service are the only people joining the military, you are sadly mistaken. Some people take it as an economic lifeline.

02/03/2007 03:09:41 PM · #19

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

No, I am not conjuring up a far stretch. I just see the world differently than you do. I don't mind you having your point of view. I don't mind you expressing that view. I don't even mind an entire thread celebrating that view... except when I think it might influence a young person to make what I consider to be a bad decision.

And you didn't clarify any stereotypes. You just replaced them with different stereotypes.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

02/03/2007 03:12:02 PM · #20

Originally posted by rossbilly:

The military is for killing people. I have an aversion to that. Even if it is necessary sometimes, it is only natural that I should have an aversion to it. When a lawyer joins the ACLU, I don't see a thread celebrating what he is doing for my freedom, yet he is doing far more for my freedom than any soldier in Iraq.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/03/2007 03:17:28 PM · #21

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by rossbilly:
::sigh::

May I ask what causes the OP such an aversion to our American military?

((BTW OP - i have literally caused the inside of my mouth to bleed, in order to ask that with politeness and respect so, please, if you don't mind, allow me the same courtesy with your response...))

The military is for killing people. I have an aversion to that. Even if it is necessary sometimes, it is only natural that I should have an aversion to it. When a lawyer joins the ACLU, I don't see a thread celebrating what he is doing for my freedom, yet he is doing far more for my freedom than any soldier in Iraq.

How many lawyers here have joined the ACLU? FWIW, there are many that also have an aversion to the ACLU yet I don't recall seeing a thread about that. Maybe I missed it?

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2007-02-03 15:17:58.

Chiqui

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

02/03/2007 03:20:39 PM · #22

Originally posted by posthumous:

My thanks to the vets who have contributed so far, though I would prefer to hear from vets who've actually been to war.

The government says I'm a veteran of war.....and I have the medals to prove it.

June

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

02/03/2007 03:26:08 PM · #23

Same here, Vietnam Era, though I saw no combat.

02/03/2007 03:27:18 PM · #24

Originally posted by yanko:

How many lawyers here have joined the ACLU? FWIW, there are many that also have an aversion to the ACLU yet I don't recall seeing a thread about that. Maybe I missed it?

Edited for clarity.

How could I possibly know how many lawyers here have joined the ACLU? And if such a thread started --"Hey I just joined the ACLU!" "Great! Thank you for defending my freedom!" -- I can only hope the people with opposing opinions would be as polite about it as I have been. Yet I am consigned to Rant. And people are asking to have my post removed from the other thread.