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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Forum Rule #2 Poll
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 10/17/2006 10:14:51 AM · #1
Please see the new poll regarding forum rule #2. If you've voted that the rule needs modifying, please explain how in this thread.

Original poll, for reference.
 10/17/2006 10:26:20 AM · #2
I think it could be modified. If the subject in entry and outtake are totally two seperate things in seperate places with absolutely no relation You should be allowed to show the outtake before the challenge is over. If you have 200 photos in the challenge and someone posts the idea they didn't use afterwards I really do not see how it would effect the scores in the challenge. I am sure someone here will though. Personally it doesn't matter to me because I stopped voting in the challenges I enter. I am here to Learn more than I am here to Win so the scoring doesn't mean that much to me. However I do get mad at the trolls a couple of times each week.
10/17/2006 10:31:47 AM · #3
I have been asking to add some words to Clarify that not only outtakes be excluded.

Also include in verbage to exclude pictures that "Did not make the deadline" I think there was some controversy that if nothing was submitted, how could there be outakes.

I do agree that there shouldn't be any discussion of photos untill the voting is over.

In a similar fashio, Media commercials for politicians have been used and abused on TV, and have been known to influence voting to a great extent. Thanks.
 10/17/2006 10:34:20 AM · #4
I am of the opinion "outtakes" of entries should be held until after voting.

However, I support a hideable discussion thread to speak of "alternates", "past entries", etc.

This way people who want to avoid any influence, even discussions of past entries can do so. And those of us who want to banter about other ideas or shots we took two days before the challenge appeared can do so.

A lot of times it happens that you have just taken a most wonderfully photo. Easily one of your favorites. (ie: someone likely took an excellent photo of a train last week and now there is a train challenge). *lol*

We like to share, and in fact, many of us like to share in it as well.

10/17/2006 10:38:45 AM · #5
The problem is where do you draw the line.

Example Say the challenge theme is Cars.

And I went to a race over the weekend and took a bunch of shots of race cars. However I entered a picture of my mini van in the challenge. Going by the rule I can not post my photos of the race til next week? Is this fair to me? I enjoy showing my photos to people that is why i bought a membership here and also added the extra storage space.
10/17/2006 10:40:42 AM · #6
I notice a few people float either intentionally or unintentionally photos from a session just prior to entering a photo from the same session in a challenge. Anyone, therefore, paying attention for the forums or to new portfolio images will immediately recognize whose work it is in the challenge. Does it affect my grading challenges? Not really. Even if I knew the identity of the person by guessing, it would not affect the number of points I awarded the photo. Just 0.02cents

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 10:41:16.
 10/17/2006 10:40:49 AM · #7
I am somewhat confused by the whole issue. There is the new forum area for outtakes that people seem to be using. But I don't think the outtakes have as much impact during the challenge as the threads discussing the challenges when they are posted. These seem to influence entries, voting and participation more than the outtakes do.

Just my opinion, but it seems to me the wrong area was addressed. Once the voting has started, outtakes cannot influence the entries all that much. They are already entered so the influence is strictly on voting and an outtake shouldn't have that much impact. But prior to voting, the threads discussing what a challenge description means and what people will vote high or low and what would be acceptable or not to me seems to have a much greater impact since these occur prior to entering. Once you read the thread you know what people are thinkng and that DOES influence how you interpret and ultimately what shot you will take/enter for that challenge. I know these threads have influenced what I have shot or entered for a challenge whereas an outtake has never influenced me either in what I shot/entered or how I voted.

I am also at a loss as how to vote in the poll. None of the choices reflect my feelings. I have no idea if the rule is working; I have no idea if the rule has problems; I have no idea if it isn't working or not since, as stated above, the outtakes never had an influence on me. So although I have feelings on the issue, none of the choices reflect my feelings. Also, as bugz said below, I, too, think the scores threads and the comments/opinions expressed in them have a much greater impact on voting than outtakes do.

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 10:59:21.
 10/17/2006 10:45:28 AM · #8
Wouldnt hurt to eliminate the show your scores here threads. I am sure that many votes have been changed do to discussions in there...
People post things like there sure are alot of DMNC photos or if i see one more apple I am going to hurl etc... Someone else reads that and says to themself Hmm Apples are Bad and they go in and vote all the apple photos down to mud...

Originally posted by Alienyst:
I am somewhat confused by the whole issue. There is the new forum area for outtakes that people seem to be using. But I don't think the outtakes have as much impact during the challenge as the threads discussing the challenges when they are posted. These seem to influence entries, voting and participation more than the outtakes do.

Just my opinion, but it seems to me the wrong area was addressed. Once the voting has started, outtakes cannot influence the entries all that much. They are already entered so the influence is strictly on voting and an outtake shouldn't have that much impact. But prior to voting, the threads discussing what a challenge description means and what people will vote high or low and what would be acceptable or not to me seems to have a much greater impact since these occur prior to entering. Once you read the thread you know what people are thinkng and that DOES influence how you interpret and ultimately what shot you will take/enter for that challenge.


Message edited by author 2006-10-17 10:46:07.
 10/17/2006 10:46:23 AM · #9
Originally posted by justamistere:
I have been asking to add some words to Clarify that not only outtakes be excluded.

Also include in verbage to exclude pictures that "Did not make the deadline" I think there was some controversy that if nothing was submitted, how could there be outakes.

I do agree that there shouldn't be any discussion of photos untill the voting is over.



I like the part about "Did not make the deadline". It's not much different than an actual outtake.

As far as discussion, I think it should be public discussion. I've comment on photos in challenges that I didn't vote in and they were private, but I wouldn't do it in a thread.
 10/17/2006 10:46:25 AM · #10
This is a tough one. On one hand you have the question of 'why stifle free discussion of photography', on the other you have 'lets not take energy away from the images entered in the challenge - wait until the challenge is over'.

My biggest gripe about related images showing up is not so much the image itself, but the inevitable conversations spawned that seem to be directed at influencing voters. It happens frequently and unfortunately isn't limited to outtakes (i.e. - talking down various categories of images in any challenge).

So, somebody posts an outtake. Somebody else eventually follow up with "there's too many of those in the challenge already - glad you didn't enter it", or the comment ensues of "it lacks in creativity". How does this impact viewer/voter reaction when they then see images of a similar nature in voting?

I'm sure we'll hear "it doesn't influence me", yatta, yatta, yatta...but for enough people I think it does, an unrightfully so.

My bucket of change...
 10/17/2006 10:48:38 AM · #11
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
The problem is where do you draw the line.

Example Say the challenge theme is Cars.

And I went to a race over the weekend and took a bunch of shots of race cars. However I entered a picture of my mini van in the challenge. Going by the rule I can not post my photos of the race til next week? Is this fair to me? I enjoy showing my photos to people that is why i bought a membership here and also added the extra storage space.


This can be avoided simply by not referencing the challenge at all in the thread or its title. It's not a problem then.

Really, the only irritating part about premature outtakes is when people post threads saying something like "How would you have scored this if I had entered it?" And, to a certain extent, "I had so many choices, all different. Here are some of the ones I didn't enter; what do you think?", but we don't see so many of those.

There is something about threads like this that is profoundly egocentric and, arguably, impolite. These are the sort of threads that should be held until after the voting is done, IMO, and I'd liek to think most people would agree with that.

R.
 10/17/2006 10:49:26 AM · #12
I think that if the current rule is causing a degree of confusion, or creating contraversy because people are posting "outtakes" when they shouldn't, then it would need clarification.

However in the few months that I have been here I can only recall one incident of such an event, over a shot that didn't make the challenge, so it doesn't seem like a particuarly big deal.

I can't say that it would influence my voting either way. Like another poster mentioned, I've seen sets posted to the forums and later seen one of them become an entry. It's not made any difference to the vote. (Though I can see how people could be swayed, eg if a photo was posted and many established members sung its praises, similar photos in a challenge might be looked upon more favourably by some)
 10/17/2006 10:49:45 AM · #13
Originally posted by Alienyst:
I am somewhat confused by the whole issue. ...
But prior to voting, the threads discussing what a challenge description means and what people will vote high or low and what would be acceptable or not to me seems to have a much greater impact since these occur prior to entering. Once you read the thread you know what people are thinkng and that DOES influence how you interpret and ultimately what shot you will take/enter for that challenge.


I agree with this. When you have people declaring what they will consider DNMC before hand you directly influence how people will vote. If you miss one of these threads and interpret a challenge in a way that someone stated they will be giving DNMC for, you're sunk right out of the gate. Others who read the thread are going to be thinking, oh yeah, I read that was a no-no - 1 for you!

As for images of "outtakes"... it's all subjective. I post things all the time, only to have them show up as a challenge the next week. And I think that happens to alot of people. I think as long as you post an image in a thread without referring to a particular challenge and ask for comments that's fine, regardless of what it is. I just don't think you should state that you missed a deadline and want to know what score you "would have" gotten.
 10/17/2006 10:50:53 AM · #14
The outtakes rule assumes that dpc voters are somehow sheepish and whimsical at the same time. I find it amusing (and frustrating) that the majority of DPCers think that the majority of DPCers are fools.
 10/17/2006 10:53:44 AM · #15
Bear I hear ya, But then I run the risk of having someone comment on one of my photos, If they say You should have entered this into the cars challenge, This makes it a discussion about the challenge? Not that I ever get many comments, But I am sure you know what I mean.


10/17/2006 10:54:25 AM · #16
And they Say the Majority Rules! lol

Originally posted by posthumous:
The outtakes rule assumes that dpc voters are somehow sheepish and whimsical at the same time. I find it amusing (and frustrating) that the majority of DPCers think that the majority of DPCers are fools.

10/17/2006 11:00:59 AM · #17
Originally posted by posthumous:
The outtakes rule assumes that dpc voters are somehow sheepish and whimsical at the same time.


I agree with that. I've heard many times that "[your pet peeve here] influences the voters, but not me." I've never heard anyone say that they are personally influenced by outtakes, just those other weak-minded voters. :-/
 10/17/2006 11:01:43 AM · #18
Originally posted by pineapple:
I notice a few people float either intentionally or unintentionally photos from a session just prior to entering a photo from the same session in a challenge. Anyone, therefore, paying attention for the forums or to new portfolio images will immediately recognize whose work it is in the challenge. Does it affect my grading challenges? Not really. Even if I knew the identity of the person by guessing, it would not affect the number of points I awarded the photo. Just 0.02cents


Yes, I've noticed that too. It wouldn't influence my voting either but for the sake of anonymity and general fairness to everyone taking part in the challenge, it would be better to show pics from a series after the challenge has ended. It's only a week, after all.
 10/17/2006 11:03:50 AM · #19
Where is the option to vote if you really don't care one way or the other?
 10/17/2006 11:04:51 AM · #20
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Where is the option to vote if you really don't care one way or the other?


That would be "The rule is fine, don't change it"?

R.
 10/17/2006 11:05:19 AM · #21
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by posthumous:
The outtakes rule assumes that dpc voters are somehow sheepish and whimsical at the same time.


I agree with that. I've heard many times that "[your pet peeve here] influences the voters, but not me." I've never heard anyone say that they are personally influenced by outtakes, just those other weak-minded voters. :-/


Yeah, if you make a great, original, ribbon-worthy photograph, none of the silly outtake threads are going to stop the inevitable.

The rule is dumb, it assumes that others are stupid, and it's an exercise in paranoia.
10/17/2006 11:06:43 AM · #22
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Where is the option to vote if you really don't care one way or the other?


That would be "The rule is fine, don't change it"?

R.


LOL, hmmm... maybe not neccesarily ... perhaps I don't pay enough attention to it to know if the rule works :-)
 10/17/2006 11:07:22 AM · #23
The current rule regarding outtakes is inadequate. It appears in many situations where outtakes are posted in individuals portfolios/gallerys, & in forums any action taken by the site is arbitrary.
It has been suggested that a CURRENT CHALLENGE OUTAKES thread option be introduced, and I would agree with that. Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off.
 10/17/2006 11:09:47 AM · #24
Actually, to ammend myself. Challenge outtakes from people who ACTUALLY ENTERED should not be allowed during voting.

Other n00bs who just missed the deadline or whatever, I personally don't care, and most of the time I'd not vote above a 6 for the people who post them anyways.
10/17/2006 11:10:35 AM · #25
Originally posted by undieyatch:
... It has been suggested that a CURRENT CHALLENGE OUTAKES thread option be introduced, and I would agree with that. Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off.

Oh, that sounds like fun! I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. :) Could be a very busy place.
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