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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Please explain to me what makes a picture Zen
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07/31/2006 01:00:38 PM · #1
I've submitted what I consider one of my best pictures *ever*.

It is scoring at 4.3.

Two comments saying that this does not meet the challenge.

Can someone please define Zen to me then? I've read up on the subject so I at least have my idea of what it is. In my view I fully met the challenge and the picture is not bad (in fact one of the commenter says the picture is good, but does not meet the challenge).

Since I clearly did not understand the challenge, is it possible to withdraw the entry?

Håkon
07/31/2006 01:10:50 PM · #2
Check out this thread on this subject - Zen Photography Thread
07/31/2006 01:12:25 PM · #3
I would give the opposite advice, disregard that thread and do no more reading on zen than this:

"Make an image that whispers serenity, simplicity, harmony. Make an image as silent as can be."

...because that is the scope of the challenge.

Don't know if you can have your image pulled.

07/31/2006 01:13:51 PM · #4
Originally posted by ergates:

... Since I clearly did not understand the challenge, is it possible to withdraw the entry?


From the Challenge Rules:

"You may request removal of your own photo, for any reason, if:

o - You make the request during the voting period. Requests made after the close of voting typically will not be considered.

o - There has been no rules violation and you have not been asked to submit proof on your entry. If you report a rules violation on your own entry or request removal after receiving a proof request, the request will be treated as a normal disqualification.

o - None of your last 25 submissions have been disqualified or removed. Remember that subsequent DQs within the next 25 submissions may incur a penalty as set forth below."


edit to add bullet point markers.

Message edited by author 2006-07-31 13:15:41.
07/31/2006 01:18:11 PM · #5
Ack, don't sweat it. I thought mine was good and it was at 4.1 this morning.

The voters are just philistines ;)
07/31/2006 01:19:20 PM · #6
I'm with you Hakon, we should be able to pull an image from a challenge.

There are many times I submit, I get three or four comments and realize I completely missed the boat, and just want to end it.

It would give a lot less images to vote on I think - many would pull out early.

I suggested it and it was not well received -

So now you just have a fun week ahead of you. I feel your pain.
07/31/2006 01:20:38 PM · #7
Originally posted by routerguy666:

I would give the opposite advice, disregard that thread and do no more reading on zen ...


Ah, excellent advice.

"Can someone please define Zen to me then?"

No. Just sit and don't wobble.

07/31/2006 01:29:51 PM · #8
I actually thought mine was ribbon worthy adn when I saw it at a 6.12 this morning I hoped it would creep up but instead it fell like a rock and i'm at 5.4 now. voters are fickle. you just never know.
07/31/2006 01:30:10 PM · #9
Originally posted by routerguy666:

I would give the opposite advice, disregard that thread and do no more reading on zen than this:

"Make an image that whispers serenity, simplicity, harmony. Make an image as silent as can be."


Tha is exactly what my picture does. It is simple, serene and in complete harmony.

I've asked for it to be pulled as per glad2badad post (thanks for that).

Håkon
07/31/2006 01:30:56 PM · #10
"Can someone please define Zen to me then?"

DT Suzuki preferred to describe Zen as "a cloud floating in the sky,"
07/31/2006 01:34:26 PM · #11
I feel your pain... Though my entry was shot last-minute, I thought it turned out halfway-decent. But alas, its current score sits at 5.15. Such is life... :(
07/31/2006 01:36:30 PM · #12
Defined:

Zen is
07/31/2006 01:39:42 PM · #13
"When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

Its 11:00PM in this part of world....zzzzzz...
07/31/2006 01:45:21 PM · #14
Originally posted by zeuszen:


........... No. Just sit and don't wobble.
..... That is Zen!!

And here's a Zen story from the internet:

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.

"Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.

"We'll see," the farmer replied.

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses.

"How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed.

"We'll see," replied the old man.

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

"We'll see," answered the farmer.

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

"We'll see" said the farmer.
...................

Ergates: Sorry to hear you pulled the photo. In Zen terms you could have 'sat and not wobbled' and said to yourself.. 'we'll see'
07/31/2006 01:47:32 PM · #15
I voted on all the pictures and I see similarities in a great deal of photo's. I think once voter's start looking at the entries and see a common thread; whether it MC or DNMC; that is what they look for throughout the rest of the votes. Too bad.....I have seen some wonderful pictures in the last few challenge's that show creativity and individuality, not counting mine (still learning), that received some low scores.

Personally, not gonna let it get me down and stop entering...how the hell am I going to improve if I don't fail. Just wish that these "voter's" would comment on why they gave a low score.
07/31/2006 01:54:48 PM · #16
Originally posted by DianaB:

Originally posted by zeuszen:


........... No. Just sit and don't wobble.
..... That is Zen!!

"We'll see" said the farmer.


Wonderful!

R.
07/31/2006 02:03:16 PM · #17
Originally posted by ergates:

I've asked for it to be pulled as per glad2badad post (thanks for that).


Now removed. Thanks.

Håkon
07/31/2006 02:34:44 PM · #18
I think lots of entries are dealing with the DNMC question in this challenge, mine included. And I thought I "knew" what Zen photography should look like.

We'll see. :)
07/31/2006 03:06:08 PM · #19
I think that Zen is as described in the challenge description, but that it is VERY open for interpretation. Some see it as an Asian-inspired image. Some see it as calm (like before a storm).

The way that I have voted has been in regard to how busy a photo is, in otherwords, if it draws my eye into many details, although they may be interesting, if it draws my eye away from a simple subject, or if there appears to be too much movement in a photo, I don't score it as highly as I may vote for another. It must have a calmness, a serenity, a simple-ness, almost a nothingness. If my eye is caught by significant detail, it disturbs the overall sense of simplicity and calm that I feel a zen shot should have.

Does that make any sense to anyone besides me?

Anyway, my own photo doesn't exactly meet these standards highly either, but it's doing better than all of my other entries so far, so I'm happy.
07/31/2006 03:38:46 PM · #20
Originally posted by msgoodygal:

I think that Zen is as described in the challenge description, but that it is VERY open for interpretation. Some see it as an Asian-inspired image. Some see it as calm (like before a storm).

The way that I have voted has been in regard to how busy a photo is, in otherwords, if it draws my eye into many details, although they may be interesting, if it draws my eye away from a simple subject, or if there appears to be too much movement in a photo, I don't score it as highly as I may vote for another. It must have a calmness, a serenity, a simple-ness, almost a nothingness. If my eye is caught by significant detail, it disturbs the overall sense of simplicity and calm that I feel a zen shot should have.

Does that make any sense to anyone besides me?

Yes. That's how I thought I "knew" Zen photography, which leads me to wonder what the hell I was thinking when I took that photograph. :)
07/31/2006 04:09:11 PM · #21
Despite all the shushing in the challenge description, many of these images are screaming their peace. The sound is like one hand clapping oneself on the back.
07/31/2006 04:28:25 PM · #22
Zen is difficult to apply to everything. Looking at the zen entries, half the people think zen is just a good time to post an easy beautiful photo.

To understand zen, however, is the key. Zen is another branch of Mahayana Buddhism, and therefore, much more complex than just the "definition" that would be found on some internet site.

And that's the problem with the challenge. I am imagining 95% of all people voting, and who entered the challenge, have their own, and completely different ideas on what zen should be. So the voting will be wonky and a lot of people will say DNMC. Kind of like the Bokeh II challenge ;-)

But, as my old teacher once asked, "What is zen?", to which a lot of people had answers, to which he replied, "You are all wrong. Only Zen knows what it is", and hence, debating whether or not something is zen or not always ends in disagreement. Furthermore, if you understand the principles of Buddhism, it's easier to understand as well that one zen teacher will differ greatly from another, as they are all presumably at different levels in the goal of attaining enlightenment, abd thus will have varying amounts of knowledge.

Trying to figure out if a photo meets "Zen" requirements is impossible. All you can figure out is if the photo meets your requirements for what you think zen is. No matter what, though, you're wrong. Only zen knows if a photo meets the requirements. ;-)

-Hideo

07/31/2006 04:29:53 PM · #23
Originally posted by DianaB:

[quote=zeuszen]
Ergates: Sorry to hear you pulled the photo. In Zen terms you could have 'sat and not wobbled' and said to yourself.. 'we'll see'


Thank you for the story, very enlightning and funny.

I just felt that entering a photo that I thought was among my very best in a challenge where it by everyone elses standard did not belong was counterproductive for me.

An entry which was falling like a stone (it was 4.2 by the time it got pulled) would have had me sitting and not wobbling, but crying inside ;)

Håkon
07/31/2006 04:58:28 PM · #24
Originally posted by redsunphotography:

Trying to figure out if a photo meets "Zen" requirements is impossible. All you can figure out is if the photo meets your requirements for what you think zen is. No matter what, though, you're wrong. Only zen knows if a photo meets the requirements. ;-)-Hideo

:) Cool
07/31/2006 04:59:07 PM · #25
Originally posted by msgoodygal:

I think that Zen is as described in the challenge description, but that it is VERY open for interpretation...
The way that I have voted has been in regard to how busy a photo is, in otherwords, if it draws my eye into many details, although they may be interesting, if it draws my eye away from a simple subject, or if there appears to be too much movement in a photo, I don't score it as highly as I may vote for another. It must have a calmness, a serenity, a simple-ness, almost a nothingness. If my eye is caught by significant detail, it disturbs the overall sense of simplicity and calm that I feel a zen shot should have...


One purpose of (Zen-) meditation/practice is to calm the mind. The benefit of calming the mind is to clear it. A clear mind perceives more acutely than an agitated one: consciousness.

I agree that a busy image is unlikely to inspire a clear mind. Movement, however, may actually contribute something. I'm thinking of the man who holds on to a brittle root that grows on a cliff, prior to his fall to certain death, when he notices a single ripe strawberry growing next to it. Letting go of the root, he plucks it and explains: "Delicious!" I would love to see some movement in an image telling this or a similar story. Wind, too, is detectable via movement.

Significant detail can be, in my view, an equally difficult critical point. A mountain, a field of wheat or a patch of moss can reveal much of it, yet remain a perfectly simple subject. I can also easily conceive of numerous clinical subjects apparent in such an image, which when subordinated to one that affects them all, may combine very well and simply to the spirit of zen.

The serenity, simple-ness, nothingness you speak of, is, after all, a state of mind which, although paralleled by the physical world, need not be imitated and depicted in the photo, only evoked, stirred, yes?
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