Firewire, 1394 and adaptors - DPChallenge Forums

07/25/2006 11:08:49 AM · #1

Ok, so I specifically went out and got a USB 2.0/Firewire compatible external drive enclosure because I want the Firewire...

I have a 1394 (small 4pin) port on my laptop, so I figured that this should work out ok.

The supplied cable however was 6 pin to 6 pin...

So I went out and got myself an adaptor for 6 pin to 4 pin.

Then I plugged it in and apparently did not play... It asked me to reboot the computer, which I did, but while it was at least detected the first time, this time it was not even detected.

When I turn the device on, it gives me the 'hardware connected' sound, then a second later, the 'hardware disconnected' sound.

My system sees it as an unknown drive or device on E:.

I have no problems running it on USB 2.0, but I only have 2 ports and I would really prefer to run this on firewire.

What the heck am I doing wrong?

I went to the hardware configuration in WinXP, but nothing seems amiss. Everything is installed correctly.

It's a Texas Instruments OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller.

Checking for an updated driver came up empty. Nothing on the net was newer.

????

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/25/2006 11:14:52 AM · #2

Originally posted by eschelar:

What the heck am I doing wrong?

Running Windows?

Seriously, make sure that the drive isn't FireWire 800 and the card FireWire 400 (the 1394 spec), or vice versa.

jah_luv

Canon PowerShot S50

07/25/2006 11:20:32 AM · #3

Have you tried plugging in other devices to the port? If so, what happened? Same thing, or did they work without issue?

What about the drive itself? Is the drive formatted?

Does it show up at all under my computer, even just briefly?

While it shows connected, can you right click on my computer/Manage and see the drive there to get the format started?

Did you restart your laptop with the device connected, and see if it's recognized on restart?

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

07/25/2006 11:20:32 AM · #4

That's a wierd problem! Given that you initially get the "device connected" sound, it seems like at least the port if functioning. I wonder if the adapter is interfering somehow?? 4-pin vs. 6-pin should be no problem, the two extra pins are for power, which most laptops don't supply to the FireWire ports.
Do you have any other FireWire devices that you could use to check the function of the port/cable combination?
BTW, I assume you're running XP? Are youi running SP2? If so, you will want to verify that this patch is installed.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/25/2006 11:21:12 AM · #5

Originally posted by GeneralE:

...make sure that the drive isn't FireWire 800 and the card FireWire 400 (the 1394 spec), or vice versa.

It shouldn't matter. Firewire 800 is backwards compatible with Firewire 400. It sounds like you're on a PC and need a driver (snicker) or you have a problem with the cable. Note that many firewire drives won't run on bus power on a laptop- you need a separate A/C adapter for power.

Message edited by author 2006-07-25 11:23:23.

07/25/2006 11:36:15 AM · #6

One at a time now:

GeneralE - I have no idea but I was pretty sure that it shouldn't matter if the drive is Firewire 800... It's just a cheap 5.25 Inch powered enclosure.

I run Windows because it's a Tablet PC and I need it for handwriting recognition in English and Chinese. I don't think I could have the patience to fiddle with Linux trying to get that all set up. As it is, it works beautifully. I'm an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type of guy.

My Dad is a Linux guy and is much more of a 'tinker with it when it's broken and tinker with it when it's not broken, generally with plenty of headaches and fiddling and reading heavy tomes for several hours before finding the simple fix...' kind of person.

I don't even have the space in my apartment for such large books. I've got one book on C programming and right now it's crammed behind my small speaker set for my computer because I have nowhere else to put it...

In a month, I will move somewhere much smaller.

MsGoodyGal - I have no other firewire devices. This is my first. Firewire is NOT popular around here (goodness only knows why). I actually had a little hissy fit in the local big tech toy retailer after visiting 3 branches and noting that there was a whole 4 foot section devoted ENTIRELY to around 50 different USB 2.0 card readers of multiple descriptions, all with virtually identical or identical function, but NOT ONE of them was firewire... That got me grumpy because I've been using USB 2.0 and I never seem to get anywhere near the speeds described on the packaging. I'd like to try firewire... especially since I started shooting RAW on my 4GB card.

The drive in the enclosure is an ASUS DVD reader writer which is fairly new to me (a month) and has been working flawlessly on the USB port as such... I love it!

It shows up on "My computer" as an "other" local disk E: with a big question mark. It looks like it thinks it is a hard drive.

Maybe the DVD drive itself is not intended to be used with firewire?

I'm not even sure that this makes any sense at all..

I did a reboot with the device connected and turned on and got this situation.

Kirbic - the power shouldn't be required as it is an AC powered external drive unit.

I am using XP SP2. Apparently a good chunk of the actual improvements in SP2 were specifically tailored to the Tablet PC version. Some of it is crucial to the way I use my handwriting recognition in Chinese.

I am attempting to run that hotfix program now. Must reboot. cya in a few.

07/25/2006 11:51:54 AM · #7

Ran the hotfix.

Now the drive simply doesn't show up.

Immediately after the 'hardware connected' noise, I get another noise I am not familiar with and have never heard before. It's like the other noises, but it's only the first note.

Maybe it's an error sound?

I don't know...

I'm quite disappointed in firewire though... I thought it would be a lot more plug and play like USB.

It looks like I'm back to USB 2.0. I might have to start using a hub which I'm sure won't do good anything good at all for my throughput speeds.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

07/25/2006 12:09:52 PM · #8

Given that this is a DVD drive, it just may be that you need a driver loaded. I agree that a USB hub is potentially a problem. I have *never* had good luck with USB hubs. Always seem to be devices that simply don't work through a hub, but work fine when directly connected :-P
It might be worth contacting ASUS and seeing if they have any insight. You might also open Device Manager and see if the device is listed when it is connected. If it is listed and you have a driver, you can update the driver from Device Manager.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/25/2006 12:14:37 PM · #9

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
...make sure that the drive isn't FireWire 800 and the card FireWire 400 (the 1394 spec), or vice versa.

It shouldn't matter. Firewire 800 is backwards compatible with Firewire 400.

A FW 800 port will handle a FW 400 drive, but I don't think a 400 port would read an 800 drive ... my concern was that the card was FW 400 and the drive FW 800.

SamDoe1

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/25/2006 12:16:04 PM · #10

Did you put the DVD drive in the case yourself, or did you buy it pre-installed? If you put it in yourself, you might want to check the connections on the inside of your case. I had this problem with my external hard drive as well and the solution was to check the jumper on the back of the drive to make sure it is in "Master" configuration. That made my drive work right away. Since it worked with USB 2.0, I'm not sure if this is a solution, but it's worth a shot I guess.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/25/2006 12:41:35 PM · #11

Originally posted by GeneralE:

A FW 800 port will handle a FW 400 drive, but I don't think a 400 port would read an 800 drive ...

It will. I just tested it with a FW800 drive and a 800>400 Firewire cable.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/25/2006 12:43:11 PM · #12

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
A FW 800 port will handle a FW 400 drive, but I don't think a 400 port would read an 800 drive ...

It will. I just tested it with a FW800 drive and a 800>400 Firewire cable.

Cool -- though I wonder if that's another Mac-only feature.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

07/25/2006 01:10:48 PM · #13

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
A FW 800 port will handle a FW 400 drive, but I don't think a 400 port would read an 800 drive ...

It will. I just tested it with a FW800 drive and a 800>400 Firewire cable.

Cool -- though I wonder if that's another Mac-only feature.

Nope. Firewire devices, AFAIK, are backward compatible. I've not found an instance where a FireWire device did not work properly on an OHCI-compliant controller, even if the contoller is older/slower than the device. I could be wrong, but that's been my experience.
In this case, since the device is not natively a FireWire device but is installed in a case that provides the FireWire interface, there is added complexity. Since the device/case combination works under USB 2.0, it *must* have something to do with the FireWire. Without having another FireWire device to confirm that the interface/cable operation is satisfactory, I'm not sure how to proceed.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/25/2006 01:15:49 PM · #14

Well, I think it's a "Windows" thing to do with DVD drives, because I had trouble even with a LaCie external FW DVD-writer on my PC (yes, I had the driver CD), while it works fine on a Mac. My Maxtor FW hard drive works fine on both.

The one other hitch is I'm running W2000 and not XP.

mist

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/25/2006 02:21:56 PM · #15

If what you're saying is that the device outputs with a 6 pin plug and your computer has only a 4 pin input, then possibly the device needs the larger socket to plug into as it uses all the available lines?

Try it on a pc with a 6 pin socket.

jah_luv

Canon PowerShot S50

07/25/2006 04:04:08 PM · #16

Well, I was under the assumption that it was an external HARD drive, not a DVD drive.

Anyway, are you still getting the ? mark next to the device name in device manager? If so, right click on it, and do a remove or uninstall device. Then shut down your PC and remove the device, restart and reinstall any software for the device, and then reconnect the device.

If the problem isn't the device itself, you may need to hunt down drivers for the firewire itself. Try to plug the whole kit and caboodle into another computer and see if it gets picked up on that...

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/25/2006 04:23:01 PM · #17

You have no problems running it on USB. It doesn't work when you run it on firewire, and you are converting the 6 pin plug to 4 pin to connect to your laptop.

The USB is supplying power, you've just removed the power feed from the firewire by nix'ing the other 2 pins. If you posted specifics about make/model of the device I missed it so a best guess would be the device requires power and you aren't giving it any via firewire.

07/25/2006 10:16:19 PM · #18

Kirbic - given that it is a DVD drive, it might need a driver, except that it is already working just fine on the USB port. The firewire connectivity is not tied to the drive itself.

In fact, neither is the USB2 by the looks of things. It looks to me like the USB an firewire are handled by the small computer board in the back of the device. That device plugs into the 4 wire port of the DVD device and the broad connector (is it 48 pin? I forget) that all drives in a PC get. This is a standard DVD drive for PC installation.

Now I guess that it's possible that the data coming from the drive is already formatted for USB2, but that wouldn't make sense for me because the data internal to a computer isn't USB2 and this is a normal internal connection to my limited experienced eyes.

I verified that the firewire port is connected. It has two ports. Earlier testing showed that one port didn't do anything. I wonder if that is part of the 'daisy chain' ability of firewire where one port was out and one port was in... After the hotfix, I still get the connected disconnected noises with one port, but the other port gets nothing.

I already checked things in the device manager before and after the hotfix. The Texas instruments OHCI 1394 controller has no updates for drivers.

As mentioned above, the device makes a funny noise but no longer shows up anywhere in the system. The unknown E: drive is gone since the hotfix and reboot. Nor does the device show up in the device manager under firewire. It shows up as a Mass Storage device when connected under USB2.

When connected under USB2, it shows up as an Asus 1608P3S USB device.

I wonder if that means that it doesn't support Firewire? I sort of thought that the transfer protocol was in the port, not in the drive... ?

SamDoe1 - I checked the connections. The connections are such that if it works with USB, it ought to work with firewire. The data goes to the board which has the data transfer controllers. I think 'master' has to do with it's hierarchy in an internal configuration. Because it's already working just fine on USB, I don't imagine that I will need to change anything to get it working under firewire.

Mist - Trying the device on another PC is my next step. However, this sounds easier than it is. I don't have any friends currently that have PC's. Everyone is using a laptop. This is primarily because space is a bit more of an issue here in Taiwan and apartments are generally a fair bit smaller. All the PC users I know are using ancient old beasts. There is one exception, but they live an hour out of town. I will be visiting them on Saturday, so I will take the device then. I don't think they have firewire on their PC though... Barring that, I will take the device back to the store I bought it at.

MSGoodyGal - sorry about the misleading info on the HD vs DVD... I'm not all that sure that there's such a huge difference in these devices as this seems to be a protocol issue... Obviously from this thread though there's plenty of stuff I don't know.

As mentioned in my second post, I am no longer seeing the device at all anywhere on my system since running the firewire hotfix from Microsoft as linked above by Kirbic. Further, I wasn't getting a question mark in the device manager. It wasn't showing up in the device manager. It was just showing up in the My Computer. I will add though that I don't think I checked the right places when checking the device manager at the time.

I connected the device on USB2 and attempted to find a new driver update and came up empty handed using the device manager.

There was no software for the device as it is still considered a Mass Storage Device. It did come with a driver pack mini-CD, but the contents were for win98 only. That was the first thing I tried.

Routerguy - above you can see the name of the device as seen by the device manager.

I strongly doubt that USB is supplying power for this one. The power is supplied by AC. The device MUST be plugged in for it to operate, therefore I believe that it is powered by AC, not the USB port. Therefore, I don't believe that the board requires power from the laptop to run firewire.

The enclosure is called a Skydock. It's a local Taiwanese brand that is very popular because it is quite compact, has USB2 and Firewire, and it's made entirely of aluminum which is great for heat management as well as having a fan (which many do not).

I'm starting to understand why firewire devices are so unpopular here though...

Thanks again for all the help guys.

EDIT: just played a little game of "Device Manager Tag" with my device and came up with this name that I hadn't seen before:

Prolific PL3507 Combo Device (1394 ATAPI Rev 1.10) IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device with a yellow question mark. I quickly hit update driver to grab the device before it disconnected.

The miniCD that came with the device does not contain any drivers...

I am leaving it connected to the device manager like this for troubleshooting, but I suspect that this is going to get me nowhere.

Message edited by author 2006-07-25 22:25:44.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/25/2006 10:28:09 PM · #19

From the Prolific Website:

Hi-Speed USB & IEEE 1394 Combo to IDE Bridge Controller

The PL-3507 is a high performance combo bridge solution for connecting USB2.0 interface or IEEE1394 interface to ATA (AT attachment) or ATAPI (AT attachment with Packet Interface) data storage devices, such as hard disk drives, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD and DVD+RW. This single chip bridge controller incorporating the features required by the demanding market while reducing the number of components on the system board to provide the most cost-effective solution.
The USB2.0 interface of PL-3507 conforms to USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 specifications connecting to host computer via USB port at maximum 480 Mbps data transfer rate.
The IEEE1394 interface of PL-3507 is compliant with IEEE Std 1394-1995 and IEEE P1394a specification and operates at speeds of 100, 200 and 400 Mbps. In addition, with the built-in SBP2 (Serial Bus Protocol 2) hardware engine, the data transfer rate can be enhanced over 35 MBps.

Auto-detect function to select connection on either USB2.0 interface or IEEE1394 interface
Built-in USB2.0 PHY
USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 compliant and USB Mass Storage Class Bulk-Only Transport Specification Compliant
IEEE 1394-1995 and IEEE P1394a compliant
Built-in hardware automated SBP2 protocol engine for IEEE1394 device connection which includes:
Management ORB fetch engine
Command ORB fetch engine
Page table fetch engine
Response packet generate engine
Fully ATA/ATAPI compliant and supporting PIO mode 0-4, Multiword DMA mode 0-2 and Ultra DMA mode 0-4
Embedded 4K Bytes data FIFO shared for USB2.0 and IEEE1394 transfer
Embedded high performance MCU
Embedded 3.3v to 2.5v regulator to supply the power of core circuit
No driver is needed on Microsoft Windows 2000, ME, XP or above, Apple Mac OS9.2 or above. (Vender driver may be needed on Windows 98SE for USB device)
Package type: LQFP128-pin

Message edited by author 2006-07-25 22:29:14.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

07/25/2006 10:48:38 PM · #20

If you click on the support link on that site, there is an article describing the symptoms you are having, though under 64 bit windows XP. Specifically, the device works under USB but with firewire it just shows up with yellow exclamation. To fix it, follow the directions to update the firmware on the device. You might not have 64 bit XP, I would try it anyway.

edit: link is //www.prolific.com.tw/eng/FAQs.asp?ID=52

Message edited by author 2006-07-25 22:49:00.