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08/31/2003 09:34:41 AM · #1
Ok. As a scientist I have been thinking. I did a little research into who has been winning challenges and I have a conclusion that I have made based on the last ten challenges or so. Out of all the challenge winners, roughly 95.5 percent of them (which puts that in the second standard deviation) Have higher end prosumer-SLR type/Pro SLR Cams. Actually I would say that The percentage is higher than that. Maybe just under the 98% mark which would kick it in to close to the first standard deviation of 98.8%

Now here lies the problem and I believe I am going to get chastized for it, but I do not care.

Is it fair to have the little people in the same competition grant it, that is the point of the Open Challenge to a degree.

These are just some things to have in bare in mind and kick around.
Maybe I am just bored. I guess you have to be something.

Have a wonderful day.

John (TurboTech)

Message edited by author 2003-08-31 09:35:38.
08/31/2003 09:58:40 AM · #2
Perhaps during your boredom you should check out some old forum posts where this has been discussed numerous times.
08/31/2003 10:25:12 AM · #3
Just maybe; The people with the greater interest in photography are the same people who have the most time invested in the work they display on this site. It would also make sense that they might have better equipment.

Is it fair to have the little people in the same competition

How fun is it to win at anything if the others didn't even try?

I think there is FAR more to learn when you surround yourself with people who are sometimes better than you are, when you are trying to improve at anything.

And I would NEVER call the others on this site "the little people."
Artistic interpretations go far beyond the cost of equipment.
Just my opinion.
08/31/2003 01:16:57 PM · #4
Well, there is something I have noticed.

It used to be a pretty good mix of cams in the winners' circles, but recently, perhaps with the advent of this newer generation of top cams,. it's getting more skewed towards the pricier gear.

any thoughts?



08/31/2003 01:19:57 PM · #5
What is this? Mr. "It's not the camera!" is saying "hell, maybe it is the camera, I don't know!"

Heh.

There's a limit to how much we can compete - I still try, but it's a definite limit. My cam simply does not shoot the shots your 10D does. Doesn't matter if we're shooting the same thing - your shot will turn out better and even though I have to point it at the right thing, even if I do, the quality doesn't compare...

M
08/31/2003 01:25:28 PM · #6
So why don't one of you analytical types figure out a "compensation factor" for each model camera registered?

Of course, then we'd all have to submit originals with EXIF to prove we shot it with the camera we say ....
08/31/2003 01:34:13 PM · #7
Different models of camera's have different characteristics. My old Sony S85 was capable of delivering certain landscapes under certain weather/lighting conditions in a way I have not been able to reproduce on my newer (and pricier) F717. Ergo...

the best advice on the matter, IMO, comes from people in these forums who remind us, how useful it is to get to know the equipment you're using, intimately and regardless of its pricetag. Hell, there's some unique stuff you can do with a 1950's Kodak box, even an old streamlined Polaroid. Some of us used to bury film (in soil) only to see what would come out... This did not even involve the use of a camera. ;-)
08/31/2003 01:42:40 PM · #8
actually, the irony is that any of the top 3's of the past 20 challenges, with the possible exception of Toodh's freestyler and diversq's shot for speed, could have been taken with ANY camera.

all of those pics are a testament to the visions of the photographers behind the cameras.

the fact that a lot of pictures that do succeed lately are taken by people with c5050's 7i7's 7i's, 10d's, 5700's etc just says to me that people who are obsessive enthusiasts tend to like the enthusiasts' cameras more than point and shoots.

08/31/2003 01:45:19 PM · #9
i agree.

fwiw, this is the metric i apply to my own pics that i enter:

"is it absolutely stunning?"

if there's any ambiguity about the answer to that question, then i won't enter or i'll try to get another shot.

sometimes i answer that question wrong in terms of the masses though. For example, I thought my desolation pic was absolutely stunning, but I got a 4.9.

I get as many 4's as a lot other people, but i also occasionally get 7's.

as someone famous said: "if you're not failing ONCE IN A WHILE [note I didn't say all the time] then you're not trying anything innovative"



Originally posted by zeuszen:


the best advice on the matter, IMO, comes from people in these forums who remind us, how useful it is to get to know the equipment you're using, intimately and regardless of its pricetag.


Message edited by author 2003-08-31 13:46:16.
08/31/2003 01:53:19 PM · #10
Im just here to have fun and learn! Sure ill bitch a little on the voting thing! But someone has said before that you can have a really nice camera and still take crappy photos.
08/31/2003 02:01:31 PM · #11
Originally posted by Turbotech:

Ok. As a scientist I have been thinking. I did a little research into who has been winning challenges and I have a conclusion that I have made based on the last ten challenges or so. Out of all the challenge winners, roughly 95.5 percent of them (which puts that in the second standard deviation) Have higher end prosumer-SLR type/Pro SLR Cams. Actually I would say that The percentage is higher than that. Maybe just under the 98% mark which would kick it in to close to the first standard deviation of 98.8%



Just because there is a correlation doesn't prove a causal relationship. Correlation is symmetrical, not providing evidence of which way causation flows and there are plenty of other independant variables that you haven't taken in to consideration, other than 'prize winners vs camera quality'

Perhaps experience might well also correlate well with camera quality, or number of pictures typically taken per entry ?

These kinds of conclusions are a fairly well understood pitfall of the application of statistics.
08/31/2003 02:21:32 PM · #12
Originally posted by magnetic9999:

actually, the irony is that any of the top 3's of the past 20 challenges, with the possible exception of Toodh's freestyler and diversq's shot for speed, could have been taken with ANY camera.

all of those pics are a testament to the visions of the photographers behind the cameras.

the fact that a lot of pictures that do succeed lately are taken by people with c5050's 7i7's 7i's, 10d's, 5700's etc just says to me that people who are obsessive enthusiasts tend to like the enthusiasts' cameras more than point and shoots.


I would point out;
Many equally obssive and ethusiastic people do NOT have the resource to purchase the higher end camera.. This does not mean we are not enthusiastic,,, we just don't have as deep of pockets as some.


08/31/2003 02:40:45 PM · #13
yeah. i agree. although, with a g3, i lump you into the 'high end' group. but, unfortunately there's no cut and dried 'formula for success'.

here are the facts (as I see them, of course)- and none seem to point to a clear trend:

my best score ever was gotten with a point and shoot.

quite a few people have ribboned with older 1.3 mpx and 2mpx cams

I've gotten 4's with my 10D, most recently on desolation.

A *lot* of people have more expensive cameras and never, ever, EVER even break into the top 20. What do those people blame, they already have the best cameras? ; )

I still maintain it's a combo of the eye and the execution ..

Message edited by author 2003-08-31 14:47:40.
08/31/2003 03:54:03 PM · #14
IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! IT'S MY CAMERA!!! ........

there... I feel better
08/31/2003 04:06:37 PM · #15
I agree with what Mag and others have said: people who spend more time with their cameras tend to buy better cameras. Chicken or egg?

check this: //www.dpchallenge.com/camera.php?CAMERA_ID=294

less than two megapixels, a few ribbons, and more than a few GREAT shots.

Pedro

ps edit - the top 15 shots all scored in the top 25, with a score above 6.40, WELL above average.

ps #2 - Joanna - no it's not :)

Message edited by author 2003-08-31 16:09:25.
08/31/2003 04:55:53 PM · #16
Better cameras give more creative choices, and produce images of higher technical quality. They are surely an "advantage".

But (virtual) glory is the only awarded prize here, yes? Not much compared to the true value of participating in the challenges - seeing the world afresh, learning more about photography and ones camera, etc.

I have always found the ratings process quite flawed-- I constantly see pictures over- and under-rated, including my own :D ( both ways!). My only conclusion is to shoot and post what I like, and not compose for the contest.

To that end, I feel that which camera one uses is not as important as how you feel about the images you make.

My only concern is if the challenge title is exclusionary to certain owners. "IR photography" or " 1/10,000 second shutter speed pictures" would be rotten challenges! :)
08/31/2003 05:45:59 PM · #17
There is a way to compare yourself to others who are using the same camera as you.

under the learn tab at the top of the page click on cameras
click on the manufacterer of your camera
find your camera and click on it

the sample pictures that where taken with that camera are listed by high score first.

maybe its not exactly a challenge, but it is a level playing field.

So... how do you compare?
08/31/2003 05:46:38 PM · #18
Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Better cameras give more creative choices, and produce images of higher technical quality. They are surely an "advantage".....snip.....I have always found the ratings process quite flawed-- I constantly see pictures over- and under-rated, including my own :D ( both ways!). My only conclusion is to shoot and post what I like, and not compose for the contest.


@ Ginger: I hope we'll be seeing something soon on DPC. I always enjoy seeing what somebody can do with a camera JUST LIKE MINE. I have strong feelings about this camera vs operator question and try to comment sparingly on the topic.

@Mag: I think your low scores originate from the same source as your high scores, a uniquely freewheeling and vivid imagination. Sometimes people just don't get it, sometimes they do. I've seen low scores on technically great photos of yours and very high scores on somewhat flawed photos. Sometimes it isn't the camera. But, sometimes, surely it is.
08/31/2003 05:48:18 PM · #19
Hey! Were you reading my comment while I was writing it? Theme from Twilight Zone playing softly in the background.......

Originally posted by MarkS224:

There is a way to compare yourself to others who are using the same camera as you.

under the learn tab at the top of the page click on cameras
click on the manufacterer of your camera
find your camera and click on it

the sample pictures that where taken with that camera are listed by high score first.

maybe its not exactly a challenge, but it is a level playing field.

So... how do you compare?

08/31/2003 06:18:35 PM · #20
LOL

BTW I'm 1st and 2nd with my point and shoot!

08/31/2003 06:25:45 PM · #21
Yes, well I'm only 5'6"-5'7" tall. Now I know for sure there are a good portion of people on this site that are taller than me. Thus handheld shots from a taller person might give a bit better perspective. So could we please have challenges bracketed by height? I think this way I could overcome a lot of my insecurities. Thanks.

Message edited by author 2003-08-31 18:26:56.
08/31/2003 06:43:24 PM · #22
Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Better cameras give more creative choices, and produce images of higher technical quality. They are surely an "advantage".


My camera can do things that even I won't understand for quite some time. I think many of the folks here have lower end cameras that also offer capabilities they haven't yet learned to utilize.
Learning is just a process of moving to the next shelf in many forms, isn't it?
08/31/2003 06:46:16 PM · #23
Originally posted by MarkS224:

LOL

BTW I'm 1st and 2nd with my point and shoot!


@ Mark: Yup and it all depends who's been playing in your playing field! Top score where I play is 7.260! BTW I'm 11th and 13th in my field.

@Matt: You've sure got a nice camera for a short guy! Don't worry, I'm not making fun of you as I'm vertically challenged (5' plus part of an inch) and visually challenged as well.

08/31/2003 06:53:57 PM · #24
Originally posted by MarkS224:

LOL

BTW I'm 1st and 2nd with my point and shoot!

Just for the heck of it I went to check ... and I can't find my camera listed there. I looked over all three pages at least three times. If someone can find it, could you please post a link.

I like it the way it is just fine. I can do things with mine I could never do with a "good" camera, like yanking it out as I drive past an interesting and desolate scene and taking a picture out the window over my left shoulder ....
08/31/2003 06:59:09 PM · #25
GeneralE's camera How strange! Your camera does have a page and most of the photos are yours, but it doesn't seem to be listed with the other Olympus cameras. Better talk to the admins about that! 8-)
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