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08/28/2003 09:17:52 AM · #1 |
The only problem with the system so far is that i dont beleive people who vote keep in mind the subject of the challenge. When i vote, i always take the context in mind first. If it relevant, i continue my critics with the technics points of the picture, then the artistique sense. I have given 1, 2 or 3 to picture who does not respect the challenge subject. Even great photo. If you dont take the subject as the central point for the vote, why bother give a challenge subject at all ?
Am i wrong ?
Some winning photo, very nice, does not meet the subject in my mind and should not have win. And with my mediocre average i dont tell that to complaint but to open the eyes of the beholders.
My two cents.
[sorry for my english, it is not my natural language. ; )] |
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08/28/2003 09:37:46 AM · #2 |
The difference here is the voter's own personal interpretation of the challenge compared to the photographers. Just because a voter does not think it meets the challenge does not mean all voters will think it. That's why there it is good that (usually) 200-odd voters interpret the images. Do they get it right with concern of the winners? Normally, but that answer is tainted by my own personal view just like everyone else.
You mention English is not your natural language so I shall assume from that you may not reside in the US. This means that your cultural references are different from someone in the US. (I'm just using the US as an example as there seems quite a few American photographers here). Take for example the baseball pictures in the Seasons challenge. To most Americans baseball is a pasttime associated with summer, I'm sure there are quite a few who played it as children and enjoy watching it as adults. To people outside of the US baseball may seem off challenge because they dont associate them together, probably because they neither played nor watched the sport. Does that make the photograph not meet the challenge? To some yes, to others it screams out season.
Another example - the winner of the past challenge was a fan. It was a '40's looking fan that some people could imagine seeing in a 1940's movie, especially those black and white detective movies. To others without that cultural reference it is just a fan. Because it won I would assume there were more people who recognised the reference or just thought it was a good picture than there were voters who didnt think it met the challenge.
Similarly, I am sure there are other cultural references that are non-US that some or most Americans do not see, recognise, or think meets the challenge. Unfortunately there seems to be more of one than the other. Then again, some people are just anal about what is and isnt on challenge. Interpretation is a good thing or else you'd end up with 200 hammers with a white background and flat light.
Is it wrong? Sure, it's not fair, but you either submit pictures you like to get comments or gauge how the 'general' population likes it via a score validation or else you cater to the masses and submit pictures, cliche as they are at times, to try and win. Of course when you can do both then it's great!
Ugh, didnt mean to write an essay, sowwy!
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08/28/2003 09:45:04 AM · #3 |
| But it's such a well written essay though. Right on target. |
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08/28/2003 09:47:54 AM · #4 |
I tend to put a lot of emphasis on whether a photo meets the challenge or not. I think that it is an important part of what DPC is.
Moodville I understand where you are coming from when you reference that a voter's interpretation may be different from the photographer's. In a past challenge I had made a comment on a photo that I didn;t see how it met the challenge and had voted the photo accordingly. The photographer messaged me back and explained to me the concept he was going after and it was something that I was not looking for in his shot, went back and looked at it again and re-voted on it.
The thing that really gripes me about this is as I was looking at some of the recent challenge comments, was someone left a comment that same something like "this photo in no way meets the challenge, but it is a great photo...I'll give it a 6"
To me this seems ridiculus...if it doesn't meet the challenge it should be a 1, it should stand no chance whatsoever of winning the weekly challenge. |
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08/28/2003 10:15:10 AM · #5 |
As far as I know the only rule when voting is that one must vote on at least 20% before their votes count. If someone is so overwhelmed with a non-subject photo that they give it a 10 it is okay. In the long run it will all average out. The fact that the individual explained their actions is what I feel is the important part.
I feel that meeting the challenge should be a priority with the photographer and that they should do their best to meet it, but at the same time if their work happens to be weak on meeting the challenge and strong on quality, composition, and processing, they should get some effort for their attempts. Just to throw a 1 out there is a little harsh.
Lately I have made an effort to leave many constructive comments in some challenges and gone to the extreme of just voting on the minimum in others. These mood swings are an indicator to me that something is happening on DPC that has taken a lot of the fire out of the pot. I think that the site has turned more into a "dog eat dog" competition than the "give your fellow photographer a helping hand " type of site that it was when I first joined up.
Another thread asks where the favorites have gone, I wonder if they have had the same feelings that I have had. :<(
Of course as always I hope you all keep shooting and have some fun at the same time! :<)
Message edited by author 2003-08-28 10:27:29. |
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08/28/2003 10:29:48 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by autool:
I feel that meeting the challenge should be a priority with the photographer and that they should do their best to meet it, but at the same time if their work happens to be weak on meeting the challenge and strong on quality, composition, and processing, they should get some effort for their attempts. Just to throw a 1 out there is a little harsh.
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I agree that it may be a bit harsh, but i try to leave a comment to the effect that I don't think that they met the challenge.
But as an example...if we have a challenge titled "Circle" and someone enters a technically perfect shot of a square and it is strong on quality, composition, and processing and ends up getting a ribbon is this right??
It does seem the we tend to get off of the main focus of the topics week to week, and they are fun, don't get me wrong there. But if we are going to have themed challenges then we should place a high emphasis on the theme itself and a poor photo of a "Circle" should rate higher than a perfect photo of a "Square". |
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08/28/2003 10:42:03 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by rickhd13:
The thing that really gripes me about this is as I was looking at some of the recent challenge comments, was someone left a comment that same something like "this photo in no way meets the challenge, but it is a great photo...I'll give it a 6"
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I don't know that I would 6 a "no way meets challenge", but I usually knock off 3-4 points for a stretch of the challenge. These means a 9 might get a 6. I guess I don't want to completely slam somebody because I missed their interpretation of the challenge. |
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08/28/2003 10:51:41 AM · #8 |
Every photo meets the challenge... every photo in every challenge... Your job is to figure out 'how' :)
I can't think of anything I could have photographed that I could not call a 'tool' by some stretch of the defintion. Same with 'monuments'... Everything COULD be called a monument to something :)
Everyone has preconceived notions about what the challenge topic means. When a photographer gets outside of those notions, the viewer doesn't usually think the photo meets the challenge, or doesn't meet it 'with strength'.
Most people who get way outside the 'normal' interpretation of the challenge will prop up their photo with a title that explains their interpretation.
Personally, for the concept of the 'challenge', I like to see photos that don't require help from a title or something else to tell me how it meets the challenge. I usually take that into account when I'm voting. Your viewer should not have to ask how it meets the challenge. When they do, your score probably suffers because of it.
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08/28/2003 10:56:06 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Every photo meets the challenge... every photo in every challenge... Your job is to figure out 'how' :) |
I think we should have a challenge to shoot "something challenging." But keep it relevant .... |
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08/28/2003 11:08:44 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by rickhd13:
I agree that it may be a bit harsh, but i try to leave a comment to the effect that I don't think that they met the challenge.
But as an example...if we have a challenge titled "Circle" and someone enters a technically perfect shot of a square and it is strong on quality, composition, and processing and ends up getting a ribbon is this right??
It does seem the we tend to get off of the main focus of the topics week to week, and they are fun, don't get me wrong there. But if we are going to have themed challenges then we should place a high emphasis on the theme itself and a poor photo of a "Circle" should rate higher than a perfect photo of a "Square". |
You bring up a good point.
A poor picture of a circle could in my estimation only deserve a 1, and at the same time an excellent picture of a square might deserve a much higher score. Neither of them would get a 10 from me. I guess what I am trying to point out is each of them should get scored on their own merit as photography and artistic value.
Message edited by author 2003-08-28 11:10:00. |
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08/28/2003 11:15:02 AM · #11 |
not to sound redundant autool...
but you bring up a good point :)
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08/28/2003 11:17:39 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by xhoss:
not to sound redundant autool...
but you bring up a good point :) |
But of course! :<) |
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08/28/2003 11:22:50 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Every photo meets the challenge... every photo in every challenge... Your job is to figure out 'how' :)
I can't think of anything I could have photographed that I could not call a 'tool' by some stretch of the defintion. Same with 'monuments'... Everything COULD be called a monument to something :)
Everyone has preconceived notions about what the challenge topic means. When a photographer gets outside of those notions, the viewer doesn't usually think the photo meets the challenge, or doesn't meet it 'with strength'.
Most people who get way outside the 'normal' interpretation of the challenge will prop up their photo with a title that explains their interpretation.
Personally, for the concept of the 'challenge', I like to see photos that don't require help from a title or something else to tell me how it meets the challenge. I usually take that into account when I'm voting. Your viewer should not have to ask how it meets the challenge. When they do, your score probably suffers because of it. |
Very true,, I'm having that experience at this very moment! Dang.... an it's a good shot too.... oh well. |
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08/28/2003 11:22:57 AM · #14 |
[quote=autoolYou bring up a good point.
A poor picture of a circle could in my estimation only deserve a 1, and at the same time an excellent picture of a square might deserve a much higher score. Neither of them would get a 10 from me. I guess what I am trying to point out is each of them should get scored on their own merit as photography and artistic value.[/quote]
But if the the topic is Circle, Square should not even be in the running...
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08/28/2003 11:36:27 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by rickhd13:
But if the the topic is Circle, Square should not even be in the running... |
I don't think it would be.
I also bet that if you put it up for DQ it would not happen. That means it would be left in the challenge by the powers to be, and therefore eligible for a vote. Now, if it were eligible, then a voter should rate it on its own merit as a photograph.
Oh! By the way, when a cylindrical object with the same diameter and height is viewed from the side it is square. :<)
Message edited by author 2003-08-28 12:19:16. |
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08/28/2003 02:35:07 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by autool:
I guess what I am trying to point out is each of them should get scored on their own merit as photography and artistic value. |
I am relieved to hear one such voice in the jungle.
Cultural differences is one reason already cited here which can jeopardize a fair vote, when topicality is taken as the primary criterium of a photo; marked differences of interpretation and demonstrated ignorance of even the dictionary definition of a topic may be another. And what about irony?
Challenge topics, IMO, are useful to the photographer, to stimulate creativity and confine an otherwise overwhelming array of subject choices. To insist on a narrow or very personal voter interpretation, potentially ambiguous to others, in turn penalizes those whose cultural, personal and aesthetic references differ from our's. This emphasis also has a potential to penalize those with a finer or more inclusive sensibility.
I remain unwilling to award a high score to what I would otherwise consider a 'mediocre' capture, just because it 'screams' topicality, particularly when that shot has little or no interest beyond one particular challenge. It is, precisely, this latent 'charge' of an image, that makes a great photo (IMO) and guarantees a life for it beyond the confines of a given topic and, hopefully, also beyond the confines of this site.
If, really, it is magic and marvel we're after, with aspirations to grow and learn from those who provide the very models for our pursuits here, we would do good to ensure their entries are recognised for what they are.
It is true, that a number of great shots slip through despite the current trend. I'm sure, that others do not. I, for one, regret this.
Message edited by author 2003-08-28 14:37:10.
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08/28/2003 02:49:40 PM · #17 |
zeuszen,
What you said :<)
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08/28/2003 02:59:59 PM · #18 |
To award a photo that "doesn't meet the challenge" a score of 1 is anyone's prerogative.
To insist that others should vote in the same way is narrow minded and attempts to limit the freedom of all to vote as they see fit.
Whilst the site rules encourage us to keep the challenge topic uppermost in our minds when voting they do not tell us how we should then award our votes on those occasions when we feel an image doesn't convey the challenge theme to us.
In my case a 1 means a photo doesn't convey the challenge topic to me AND is an image I dislike a lot/ can't find any merit in whatsoever.
If it conveys the challenge topic but is a poor photo it may score slightly higher, anywhere from a 2 to a 4.
If it doesn't seem to convey the challenge topic well but is a superb photo it will likewise score from 2 upwards.
Note how I used the word "seem" above, because I agree with John:
I assume that nearly every image does "meet the challenge" in the eyes of the photographer who submits it. (Very occasionally an individual decides for whatever reason to submit something that doesn't fit even in his own eyes, but it's usually for a humourous reaction).
So when I feel something doesn't meet a challenge I am mindful that what I really mean is that it may fit very well to someone else but that it doesn't convey the challenge to me.
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08/28/2003 03:24:07 PM · #19 |
Believe it or not, the main issue here is culture. In picture interpretation and appreciation the cultural background is decisive. The examples of the fan picture for Past and the baseball picture for Season are perfect in this respect. Since the majority of this community is from the US one may expect US photographers to do better since they speak and understand the image language that comes with this background. This is not saying that people are voting unfairly, but that is the natural way this acquaintanceship would work. However, if everyone were to realize the fact that DPC is an international forum, one might be somewhat more open-minded when scoring. As Setzler argued, the basic trust should be that the photographer was trying to do something that in his/her mind would fit the challenge. The stretch of what the challenge is might run differently for people with different cultural background. As a consequence, it is unduely harsh to give out 1’s to pictures that in someone’s understanding don’t meet the challenge, even if they are perfect in an artistic sense. Some photographers have announced that they would leave the DPC-community until common sense would return for artistic value (and at least one did).
One particular point on challenge interpretation recently struck me as example of how far an unduely strict challenge interpretation would get us off-target. That was the question ‘may I rotate a picture?’ in the Past challenge where ‘no editing’ was allowed. The question had never occurred to me (I only found the thread after I had submitted my rotated picture). Of course one can rotate a picture. To even think that this was not allowed seemed to me a dispute for freshman law students rather than for a forum of mature photographers. I do not want to reopen the issue, this is just to make a point in showing how far the ‘what is the challenge’ issue has brought us off-track.
Let’s go back to artistic work, helping master the technique (I learned a lot in the past year just from the threads and tips) and giving constructive criticism.
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08/28/2003 03:32:51 PM · #20 |
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