| Author | Thread |
|
|
04/17/2006 05:59:00 AM · #1 |
I know this has been beaten to death already but where have the constructive comments gone? Just looking back at some of the older challenges it seems ALL of the low scoring images would get a fair number of comments. Nowadays we have more members but less constructive comments. If you're not in the top 50 you're lucky to get even 1 comment. UNLESS of course you submit a DNMC image THEN like cockaroaches in the night they come out in droves to let you know that. And that's fine but where is that excitement to post when there's something else you find wrong with the photo?
Now I'm sure some think the whole comment idea is a waste of time. However, I believe it is in the best interest of the community as a whole that this area be improved. People who don't receive the feedback challenge after challenge are the most likely candidates to become so called troll or worse (for D&L) they become non-members or leave outright. None of those things are positives for the community so I don't understand why we don't try anything to correct this. Instead we concern ourselves with the most trival of things like increasing the image size of photos because we are so vain we need those extra few pixels to show off our fantastic work at the detriment of the less fortunate let alone make this site slower to load than it already is and I'm on broadband. The quality of the site while still rich seems to be headed south. Mind you this is just my opinion, my comment if you will that I hope is at least somewhat constructive, something that's bordering on extinction these days.
Or perhaps I just need to get on some meds. It's also very late and I should be asleep. :)
ETA for clarity.
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 06:00:53.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 06:19:11 AM · #2 |
I agree with you! The commenting has def gone down hill! I either get nice comments, or really negative ones, and 99% of the time people don't explain themselves (even in the nice comments). You need to say what you liked/disliked about a photo, but try to put it in a way that the other person will understand. There is a training technique which I use when I teach singing, where if I hear a bum note I will tell them it's good, but they should try it another way, and it always works. I have often tired to rant about negative comments in the past, obviously with not much success.
I hate negative comments, and when I get one now-a-days I challenge it, and then people don't like it if I challenge their comments cos they think they are always right. If constructive comments were left in the first place I wouldn't have to challege them or feel offended by them in the first place. (Hope all this makes sense) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 06:32:47 AM · #3 |
A while back, I put up some shots and asked for feedback. I practically had to beg just to get 2 comments. I guess if you're not part of the popular "in-crowd" you can forget about getting comments. I sometimes have flashbacks to high school. It can be very cliquish.
I give them out, so I don't get it. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 07:21:57 AM · #4 |
I've said this previously in other posts but my system of commenting is that I will comment on the images I vote at either end of the scale. The ones I like and the ones that IMHO I have scored low. It is the ones that I have scored low that I take particular care about when I comment. I try to be constructive.
I don't receive the same courtesy in return. I have recently submitted a couple of images that have done particularly poorly. I received a few comments but nowhere in proportion to the number of people who voted my image in the ones and twos. It is disappointing to see that your image has been scored low but not to understand why. (BTW I very rarely vote in the ones and twos!)
Oh well life is like that and I will submit images when I consider them worthy. I will not be in so much of a hurry to submit images in the future. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 07:58:47 AM · #5 |
When I left this site for a few months in november comments were always being given. When i returned in jan hardly anyone was leaving comments and my average score went from a 5.9 to a 5.0 in just a few challenges. At first i was saying it was because I was working with a new camera, my first Dslr and I was still in the learning process. But when I noticed that I also wasnt getting comments with a score of 4.3 and falling I could no longer blame it on the lack of experience. my macro abstract challenge got 69 votes of 3 or less and only one comment(which was a question and no help at all!)! This does quite anger one, let me tell you. My membership runs out in June and I havent decided to pay for another year or not yet. How can one Improve and quit making the same mistakes without someone telling them what it is they are doing wrong. Unless that is the whole point of not leaving comments anymore. If there isnt comments to help someone improve then theres less competition for the "ribbon/bragging rights". which defeats the whole purpose of the website IMHO. I joined here because I saw DPC as a place to learn the art and improve.....I can honestly say I am not sure it still falls into that category. The lack of comments recieved and very low score has cause me to take a step back from voting and commenting myself. I dont feel that i am qualified any longer to do either based on what little feedback i have gotten. I also havent entered the last few challenges and dont know if i will again either.
I think change is always a good thing. It makes us grow and change ourselves, but, the change that has happened here in the last few months isnt good for the site. Its sad that DPC isnt the same "type" of site that I found exactly one year ago, or even the same as it was in November. It has changed for the worst! To me it has become a self serving "Me, Me, Me" site instead of the " all for one, one for all" that I fell in love with. :o(
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 08:23:33 AM · #6 |
I'm not going to lie -- I stopped making 'informative' comments because people stopped checking them as helpful. If I'm going through a challenge, and I spot a photo that's a 5, and I would take the time out to stop and tell them that they should reconsider composition to draw the viewer's eye in more, or to think about their angle so the lighting is better, it really gets to me when someone can't mark the comment as helpful.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 09:14:07 AM · #7 |
I used to (when I started last fall) comment alot but now I comment very infrequently. The reason is the lack of "helpful" boxes checked, especially on the poorer pictures where, ironically, I had the most to say.
There is also a tendency for the lowest scoring pictures' photographers not to check the boxes as "helpful". This gives even more reason not to bother commenting on the pictures that could use the most improvement.
I think there should be a user preference checkbox on whether the photographer wants comments and the comment box shouldn't even appear for pictures where they don't. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 09:18:11 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
... people don't like it if I challenge their comments cos they think they are always right. ... |
That's an interesting observation. If you challenge comments are you not implying that you are the one that's always right? The word challenge, as applied in this context, sounds aggressive. When aggression is used many times the other party will become defensive. It all sounds a bit stressful. ;^) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 09:21:49 AM · #9 |
| This is why I always mark negative comments as helpful and I don't attack the person commenting. But many people punish commentors, so why should they do it? Anyway, I usually get at least 3 or 4 comments, which are enough to let me know why I'm getting low votes. Usually the reason is "I'm such a literal thinker that I am offended by your imaginative approach to the challenge." I'm paraphrasing, of course. :) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 09:43:06 AM · #10 |
| Could the reduction in comments be in porportion to the increase in entries? I find that I'm getting more and more intimidated with the number of entries in some of these challenges. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 09:52:18 AM · #11 |
My Jump entry is a new record for me - 0 comments! Yep, zero. Which is fine. It's boring. I kinda like the composition myself, but I can see where it may not appeal to the masses and it didn't have any "pop".
On the other hand, I gave out about 30 or so comments in that challenge.
As for "not marking helpful" particularly in the lower rated pics, I suspect that those are from "newbies" who've yet to figure out how the site truly works in a lot of cases. If I find comments not marked as "helpful", I check that person's portfolio to see if they've ever marked comments at all - usually they haven't. This may be due to language barriers as well.
Don't let the behavior of a boorish few stop you from commenting. I myself have been remiss at thanking those who do comment (which I generally try to do after a challenge.) Just keep running out of time! So for those of you who have commented on my entries - muchas gracias! Thanks!! |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 10:24:31 AM · #12 |
I also have noticed a recent lack of commenting. I attributed it to the same reason dleach mentioned, which is why there was no bonus challenge last Friday.
For the people who don't comment because their comments aren't getting marked helpful, is this feature more harmful than it is good? Would you have ever felt a need to comment in the first place if that "recognition number" on your profile didn't exist? Perhaps that feature needs to be removed or modified somehow? There was talk previous of an additional checkbox "This comment has been read" or "This comment was appreciated", but I'm wondering if effort there would really help the situation?
I'm also interested in hearing any ideas people have for fostering more comments. We can run another Invitiational Challenge for people who have given more comments than they have received. Or perhaps we can just make people more aware of the helpful checkbox and have a page better fit than comment_browse.php to show you comments that you haven't marked as helpful. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 10:29:28 AM · #13 |
Langdon, I think the single most useful change would be to give people an option to tick in their preferences. Make us choose if we DO want comments, good and bad.
Then along with each photo, let us see if that person does or does NOT want comments - during the voting stage as well as afterwards.
Many of us would be very happy to leave feedback where we know it is welcome, and not have to worry about getting a nasty email or forum comment for our troubles. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 10:31:08 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by langdon:
...have a page better fit than comment_browse.php to show you comments that you haven't marked as helpful. |
An idea I floated once before would be to have the ability to mark/check comments "helpful" directly from the 'comment-browse.php" page.
For anyone reading this that isn't familiar: The "comment-browse.php" page is what you see when you go in to look at comments rec'd from the profile page by selecting the link (number of comments rec'd is a link) under the comments section. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 10:31:47 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by langdon:
I also have noticed a recent lack of commenting. I attributed it to the same reason dleach mentioned, which is why there was no bonus challenge last Friday.
For the people who don't comment because their comments aren't getting marked helpful, is this feature more harmful than it is good? Would you have ever felt a need to comment in the first place if that "recognition number" on your profile didn't exist? Perhaps that feature needs to be removed or modified somehow? There was talk previous of an additional checkbox "This comment has been read" or "This comment was appreciated", but I'm wondering if effort there would really help the situation?
I'm also interested in hearing any ideas people have for fostering more comments. We can run another Invitiational Challenge for people who have given more comments than they have received. Or perhaps we can just make people more aware of the helpful checkbox and have a page better fit than comment_browse.php to show you comments that you haven't marked as helpful. |
This has been mentioned before, but I think the checkbox should be for "This comment has been read". I personally try to check every box as a "thank you" to the person who left the comment. But not all are "helpful". I think the wording sometimes is deemed hurtful to people who put the effort into trying to help and not being acknowledged. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:00:38 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Langdon, I think the single most useful change would be to give people an option to tick in their preferences. Make us choose if we DO want comments, good and bad.
Then along with each photo, let us see if that person does or does NOT want comments - during the voting stage as well as afterwards. |
Do you think that anyone would actually opt out of receiving comments?
...
After I wrote that sentence I checked to see how many people in a given challenge weren't ticking the critique box, and was surprised to see that more than half weren't. I only checked Chrome, Candid, and Color Studio Portrait, but wouldn't suspect other challenges to be different.
I wonder though, if initially (and always for noobies) a checkbox like this, that would have to be checked to get comments, would cause some negative commotion? |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:02:34 AM · #17 |
| I don't check the tickbox for comments because I know they are already ovewhelmed. That doesn't mean I don't want general comments. Others may be the same way. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:05:33 AM · #18 |
| I could happily do without comments in order that others get them. I'm here for the fake ribbons :) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:11:03 AM · #19 |
Langdon, we have had countless threads about this, and I have often read that people are sick of being attacked.
Are there folks who don't want comments? YES! One person in particular clearly stated several times that she does NOT want any, a few others have said they don't care for them very much.
I assume there must be many who couldn't care less one way or the other. What we DO need, is to know at voting stage (and even later), if we are looking at a photo of one of the people who desperately WANT feedback.
Then we could concentrate our time and effort on THOSE folks, and leave the other ones alone.
I"m sure the ones crying out for comments aren't very likely to abuse us for saying something negative.
My personal opinion is that we should have three boxes that need to choose from EVERY time we enter a photo:
a) I want NO comments, thank you.
b) I am delicate - don't say anything negative to me
c) I really want feedback - tell me the truth. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:12:12 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by langdon:
... I wonder though, if initially (and always for noobies) a checkbox like this, that would have to be checked to get comments, would cause some negative commotion? |
Make it a required field on challenge submission - like the other checkboxes. Could be a radio button Yes/No field: "Do you want to allow comments on your submission during voting?" |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:13:03 AM · #21 |
I'd like to see a flag in the profile -- "detailed critical comments welcome". If they were flagged and this somehow showed during voting, I think more people would be willing to post their honest, opinions, even if critical.
Perhaps that will help--I have heard some people express that people are afraid to offend, or of email/arguments later.
Another thought I suggested once before is some sort of kharma system, to offer a "Score" / "reward" for constructive criticism. If people work this hard for virtual ribbons, perhaps they will also work for points/kharma.
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 11:13:40.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:16:00 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
My personal opinion is that we should have three boxes that need to choose from EVERY time we enter a photo:
a) I want NO comments, thank you.
b) I am delicate - don't say anything negative to me
c) I really want feedback - tell me the truth. |
Do you think this might influence voters? Subliminally I think it could if there is text on the voting page laid out as you've listed as your bullet points. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:17:00 AM · #23 |
I got a comment once that said that something I'd done in post processing was against the rules, they thought - and it wasn't. I didn't mark that comment as helpful because it told me nothing about my entry. But I really do appreciate them wanting to tell me something like that. If I had done something against the rules, I'd definitely have wanted to know, and would certainly marked the comment as helpful. (I mark most comments as helpful, and find negative comments extremely helpful a lot of times, but I don't want to mark every comment as helpful no matter what, because that detracts from the meaning of helpful.)
The commenter was not factually correct, but does that really detract from what they were trying to do with their comment? They were trying to provide details on something I might have done wrong and that is certainly appreciated.
So I'm just wondering right now, what really is the meaning of helpful? Or more accurately, what is the point behind having the check boxes? Whatever point there was to implementing them has seemed to fade away as some people check the box no matter what, some don't check it at all, and some apparently think only positive comments are in any way helpful.
I would suggest that the boxes be removed entirely, and replace them with these things.
When submitting, check boxes such as:
I do not want comments.
I am still learning a lot and would appreciate comments that are positive.
I would appreciate any and all comments (please keep negative comments constructive).
This comes from an idea I saw mentioned before (see edit). This serves a function similar to the helpful checkboxes by providing feedback to the commenters but could eliminate some of the problems we are now seeing, because challenge submitters would have to make one simple decision as to what they would find helpful. Also, it would let people know right away, as they are commenting, what is appreciated and what would not be; this is helpful for the commenter and could also benefit submitters by allowing them to get comments more tailored to what they desire.
The second thought is to have something that motivates people to comment more, and I propose a box on the main page that shows the top commenters in the past two weeks, exactly like what is on the critique club page. I've found that box to be very motivating to me as a new critiquer. It would be great to see, right on the main page, that box to provide an element of competition, and underneath to have a message that says "Thank you for your comments."
edit: Hee, I had a feeling it would come up in this thread as I was writing this post!
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 11:22:32. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:18:00 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by langdon:
We can run another Invitiational Challenge for people who have given more comments than they have received. |
I love this idea. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 11:21:57 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Do you think this might influence voters? Subliminally I think it could if there is text on the voting page laid out as you've listed as your bullet points. |
My exact wording - a bit too snippy - was only meant as an example. It would need to be toned down to be actually acceptable.
Once it has been expressed properly, I think we'd get used to it.
Perhaps not a perfect system, but better than all the problems we have now? |
|
