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03/15/2006 12:17:54 PM · #1 |
My dad has a 90’s model Buick century. Last week it started shaking after driving it about 15 miles and would cut off. Would not start back up for about an hour, I guess till the car cooled off. He took it to a local garage where the said his catalytic converter was stopped up or bad and that would solve the problem. He had them to fix it at a cost of almost $200 and on the way home from the garage it started running hot (showing on the gauge). He pulled it in to the yard where he let it sit until it cooled off and took it to another place that afternoon. While waiting for it to cool off he called the place he had the catalytic converter replace and they said there must be another problem. They said what they did was needed and all they do is mufflers, pipes, etc. and recommended him to take it somewhere else.
When my dad got to the second garage (BTW he knows this person and he is very reputable) he had his mechanics take a look and the notice the fan was not coming on when it should to keep the motor cool. They replace the sensor, a hose that was leaking, and something to do with the radiator and did not charge my dad because the owner said he didn’t know if what he did would solve the problem or not.
Well today I just had to go pick him up after the car stopped again. The temperature gauge is not showing hot but after driving it about 20 miles it started shaking and cut off like it was doing before he had the catalytic converter replace. Will not start up for about an hour or I guess till it cools off.
Anyone with a suggestion or two? HELP is needed he can’t afford to keep putting money out and not solving the problem
Thanks in advance,
-SDW
P/S: What makes it so bad my mother car is in the shop right now where they are trying to find out the problem with her car. At least it's under warranty.
Message edited by author 2006-03-15 12:19:49.
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03/15/2006 12:20:47 PM · #2 |
hey my mom had the same problem with hers. i'll find out tonight what was wrong with it. she actually just had this same issue a few months ago but hers is a '92. she got hers fixed though.
Originally posted by southern_exposure:
My dad has a 90’s model Buick century. Last week it started shaking after driving it about 15 miles and would cut off. Would not start back up for about an hour, I guess till the car cooled off. He took it to a local garage where the said his catalytic converter was stopped up or bad and that would solve the problem. He had them to fix it at a cost of almost $200 and on the way home from the garage it started running hot (showing on the gauge). He pulled it in to the yard where he let it sit until it cooled off and took it to another place that afternoon. While waiting for it to cool off he called the place he had the catalytic converter replace and they said there must be another problem. The said what they did was needed and all they do is mufflers, pipes, etc. and recommended him to take it somewhere else.
When my dad got to the second garage (BTW he knows this person and he is very reputable) he had his mechanics take a look and the notice the fan was not coming on when it should to keep the motor cool. They replace the sensor, a hose that was leaking, and something to do with the radiator and did not charge my dad because the owner said he didn’t know if what he did would solve the problem or not.
We today I just had to go pick him up after the car stopped again. The temperature gauge is not showing hot but after driving it about 20 miles it started shaking and cut off like it was doing before he had the catalytic converter replace. Will not start up for about an hour or I guess till it cools off.
Anyone with a suggestion or two? HELP is needed he can’t afford to keep putting money out and not solving the problem
Thanks in advance,
-SDW
P/S: What makes it so bad my mother car is in the shop right now where they are trying to find out the problem with her car. At least it's under warranty. |
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03/15/2006 12:25:17 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by queanbeez:
hey my mom had the same problem with hers. i'll find out tonight what was wrong with it. she actually just had this same issue a few months ago but hers is a '92. she got hers fixed though.
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Thanks you so much.
EDIT: I just called him and his is a '92 as well.
Message edited by author 2006-03-15 12:26:37.
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03/15/2006 12:28:13 PM · #4 |
You might want to send a message to BradP
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03/15/2006 12:32:20 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Dirtypainter:
You might want to send a message to BradP |
Thanks I will do that.
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03/15/2006 12:33:25 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by southern_exposure:
Originally posted by Dirtypainter:
You might want to send a message to BradP |
Thanks I will do that. |
And/or MrQuinn, another mechanic and a friend of Brad's... Or is that MQuinn?...
R.
Message edited by author 2006-03-15 12:33:46.
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03/15/2006 12:35:58 PM · #7 |
My suspicion on this is that the ignition module, coil pack(s), wires or spark plugs are having issues. If ignition systems break down, unburnt fuel will travel out the combustion chambers and will melt down a catalytic converter, plugging it up, causing the symptom of lack of power and elevated temps. The catalytic converter may have indeed been bad/broken up/melted down and restricted, but is a symptom, with the root cause being ignition system problems. If that is the case, the new catalytic converter will melt down again if not corrected.
If driving down the road, the fan is not needed as it gets enough airflow from the vehicle's movement. The fan switch is needed in stop & go driving in order to keep the radiator cool according to coolant temperature. Overheats can be from plugged radiator, to a bad thermostat, to a leak (system has to stay pressurized to keep the coolant a liquid and not form steam pockets) to a lean condition, to plugged exhaust, misfiring cylinders, or even internal engine problems such as a blown head gasket (milky looking oil film in oil filler cap a dead give-away fo rthat)
What year is it? Service Engine Soon light on? If it's a 1996 or later, was it flashing? (flashing means a catalyst damaging misfire)
I suspect it is earlier than 1996 based on the price paid for a new converter - 96 & later get to be expensive.
Mid 90's GM 3.8L platforms are not uncommon to have ignition module problems. They also have 3 ignition coils, each supplying spark for 2 cylinders at the same time (one in combustion cycle and other cylinder in waste spark cycle to burn off and residual unburnt fuel)
If one cylinder is not firing, the cause cannot be a coil, but rather a bad spark plug wire or spark plug. Reason for waiting until cooled off before being able to restart is common with a failing ignition module - internal electronics need to cool down.
Lots of questions huh.
Message edited by author 2006-03-15 12:43:23. |
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03/15/2006 12:36:13 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by southern_exposure:
Originally posted by Dirtypainter:
You might want to send a message to BradP |
Thanks I will do that. |
And/or MrQuinn, another mechanic and a friend of Brad's... Or is that MQuinn?...
R. |
Thanks Robert I just pm'ed brad and I will pm MrQuinn if Brad is unable to respond.
Thanks for the help.
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03/15/2006 12:41:51 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by BradP:
My suspicion on this is that the ignition module, coil pack(s), wires or spark plugs are having issues. If ignition systems break down, unburnt fuel will travel out the combustion chambers and will melt down a catalytic converter, plugging it up, causing the symptom of lack of power and elevated temps. The catalytic converter may have indeed been bad/broken up/melted down and restricted, but is a symptom, with the root cause being ignition system problems. If that is the case, the new catalytic converter will melt down again if not corrected.
If driving down the road, the fan is not needed as it gets enough airflow from the vehicle's movement. The fan switch is needed in stop & go driving in order to keep the radiator cool according to coolant temperature. Overheats can be from plugged radiator, to a bad thermostat, to a leak (system has to stay pressurized to keep the coolant a liquid and not form steam pockets) to a lean condition, to plugged exhaust, misfiring cylinders, or even internal engine problems such as a blown head gasket (milky looking oil film in oil filler cap a dead give-away fo rthat)
What year is it? Service Engine Soon light on? If it's a 1996 or later, was it flashing? (flashing means a catalyst damaging misfire)
I suspect it is earlier than 1996 based on the price paid for a new converter - 96 & later get to be expensive.
Mid 90's GM 3.8L platforms are not uncommon to have ignition module problems. They also have 3 ignition coils, each supplying spark for 2 cylinders at the same time (one in combustion cycle and other cylinder in waste spark cycle to burn off and residual unburnt fuel)
If one cylinder is not firing, the cause cannot be a coil, but rather a bad spark plug wire or spark plug.
Lots of questions huh. |
Thanks for replying Brad.
First it's a '92 model. And what it is doing now is you will be driving along and without warning start to shake (sounds like a noise under the hood) and stop off. Will not start up for about an hour.
The 'check engine light' does not come on and there is visible signs on the engine showing a problem. Like I said it's a '92 but only has 60K+ original miles on it.
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03/15/2006 12:48:45 PM · #10 |
The shaking/noise under the hood sounds like a classic misfire to me and again, the ignition module under the coil pack would be where I would be looking first. When the modules fail, they often will start behaving erratically, firing cylinders out of time, popping noises can be hard often, as cylinders will get spark duriing the intake stroke and will fire back into the intake, causing shaking/missing/low power, followed by a shut-down and cool-off period needed to restart it.
If the module is in fact the culprit get the spark plugs & wires replaced / checked too as when they get worn, the energy needed to jump a worn gap goes way up, making the coils work harder, which in turn stress the module, as it is what turns on/off the coils. |
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03/15/2006 12:52:28 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by BradP:
The shaking/noise under the hood sounds like a classic misfire to me and again, the ignition module under the coil pack would be where I would be looking first. When the modules fail, they often will start behaving erratically, firing cylinders out of time, popping noises can be hard often, as cylinders will get spark duriing the intake stroke and will fire back into the intake, causing shaking/missing/low power, followed by a shut-down and cool-off period needed to restart it.
If the module is in fact the culprit get the spark plugs & wires replaced / checked too as when they get worn, the energy needed to jump a worn gap goes way up, making the coils work harder, which in turn stress the module, as it is what turns on/off the coils. |
Thanks Brad I will talk to my dad and have it toed to repair. I will ask them to begin by checking there.
Everyone has been a big help and a special thanks to you brad.
-SDW
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03/15/2006 01:51:33 PM · #12 |
I was going to say ignition module as well after reading the problem. I had a similar problem on my Jeep. They can be fine while cold and act up when hot. Plugged up cat can do the same thing so the first shop wasn't out of line when they changed it, but they should have tested it before sending him home and they were out of line for that. You never want to be responsible for stranding someone.
The ignition module should be held on with a few bolts and simply plugged in. This is an easy repair if the module is easy to find and get to. A new module on my jeep cost me $25 and took 5 minutes to change.
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03/15/2006 01:58:52 PM · #13 |
| A GM 3.8 Module is mounted under the three ignition coils and is not hard to replace, but are no $25 either. Borg-Warner or OE only on these (from experience). |
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03/15/2006 02:34:30 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by southern_exposure:
My dad has a 90’s model Buick century. Last week it started shaking after driving it about 15 miles and would cut off. Would not start back up for about an hour, I guess till the car cooled off. |
2 items that come up on the Reatta forum (Buick 3800 or 3.8 engines) that relate to your post are the IAC controller and sometimes the grommet in the intake. The grommets crack over time and allow vacumn leaks that can cause behaviour like you describe. The IAC gets dirty and causes the engine to run very rough and the car to shake violently. At some point the engine will not start at all.
Attached is an attempt to link an IAC discussion in the Reatta forum. The good news, is that if it is a dirty IAC, then it is very easy to clean and won't cost you anything, as long as you don't loose the 2 stainless steel screws.
IAC
Message edited by author 2006-03-15 14:42:34.
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03/15/2006 02:56:31 PM · #15 |
I had similar probs on my Golf gti (rabbit to you guys).
I thought it was ignition related though it turned out to be a fuel blockage in one of the filters.
The lack of fuel caused the engine to "jump" (miss-fire) and die out.
after a minute or two the crap in the lines settled enough to start it up again...
It could be an air leak as above, though this tends to cause permanent symptoms, not ok for a bit, then trouble.
Who ever told you that it was the Cat saw you coming IMO! |
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03/15/2006 04:47:09 PM · #16 |
I had a similar style of problem recently on my vw passat and it turned out to be a crack in the distributor cap. Was causing the engine to misfire and not start in some cases. just a thought.
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03/15/2006 06:02:50 PM · #17 |
well i asked my mom but since she is 67yrs old she cant remember what it was! so sorry..
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03/15/2006 06:14:10 PM · #18 |
| If you're still stumped by the weekend, you can always call in to Car Talk on NPR-- your car may not get fixed but you (and the nation) will get a good laugh .... |
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03/15/2006 06:25:01 PM · #19 |
We went on a cross-Canada several years ago, after having the car serviced and checked out. Started out from the west coast, got to Alberta where we blew a connection from the rad. Got that fixed but continued having probs with it showing it was running hot. A dealership told us that it was just a computer glitch, nothing was wrong, and to ignore it. Next time it overheated it was found the catalytic converter was plugged and it was removed. In Quebec we blew the engine and had to have it replaced at a cost of $3000 for a rebuilt. He told us that all our problems were symptoms of the catalytic converter plug, which had basically caused us to "cook everything", that even though we'd had it removed a thousand miles earlier the damage had already been done.
So now I advise folks who have overheating problems to have that checked asap on top of any obvious fixes. The other problems may only be symptoms! |
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03/15/2006 06:37:29 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Flash:
2 items that come up on the Reatta forum (Buick 3800 or 3.8 engines) that relate to your post are the IAC controller and sometimes the grommet in the intake. The grommets crack over time and allow vacumn leaks that can cause behaviour like you describe. The IAC gets dirty and causes the engine to run very rough and the car to shake violently. At some point the engine will not start at all. |
Nope - the IAC won't cause an engine to die out and not start.
1) The IAC (Idle Air Control - key word idle) won't cause an engine to miss or have a driveability problem. It is not even in used when driving.
The grommet you are referring to will cause a vacuum leak, but again, won't cause the driveability missing/shutting off while driving.
Careful of the do-it-your selfers out there in web forums.
Someone can describe a symptom in their own words, and could be 20 different causes, and 1 solution, but it doesn't mean that solution is right for the other 19 causes.
I fix a lot of cars that have had hundreds of dollars worth of parts replaced, with no cure, and find it to be something as simple as a battery connection.
I have also been doing this for over 25 years, and own my own shop.
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03/15/2006 06:42:06 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by pix-al:
Who ever told you that it was the Cat saw you coming IMO! |
Careful of blatent statements like that.
I would be willing to bet the converter was a problem, but was a symptom, caused by ignition misfires, nopt the initial root cause. At the time, the ignition system may have been fine, and all that was verifiable was a plugged converter at that time.
I have seen this scenario dozens of times over, AND, a car can have no ignition problems running for 6 hours here in my shop, but close the hood and drive it and bam! The hood being open reduces underhood temps, allowing the electronics to be under the threshold of temperature-related failure.
Intermittents are a booger. |
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03/15/2006 06:47:50 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by marklovell:
I had a similar style of problem recently on my vw passat and it turned out to be a crack in the distributor cap. Was causing the engine to misfire and not start in some cases. just a thought. |
No distributor in this model.
Crankshaft & Camshaft Position Sensor(24501417), Module(10456478), 3 Coils(10472401), plugs & wires. |
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03/16/2006 03:01:27 AM · #23 |
Oh and for anyone wanting to believe a lot of what you read on the auto forums and such, just be careful.
There is a lot of mis-information out there by a lot of parts changers, that are not technicians.
Message edited by author 2006-03-17 00:01:33.
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03/16/2006 03:12:06 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Oh and for anyone wanting to believe a lot of what you read on the auto forums and such, just be careful.
There is a lot of mis-information out there by a lot of parts changers, that are not technicians. |
...so Brad, do you know any qualified mechanics? ;-)
Actually-- maybe you can tell me why BMW put the battery
under the back seat??? - not to mention no cupholders! P.O.S.! |
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03/16/2006 03:14:02 AM · #25 |
You forgot multi-ribbon DPCer Brad ;) |
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