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 01/15/2006 08:23:48 PM · #1
I'm looking into buying a DSLR and I'm being told on the forum to not buy into the body, but look into the glass more. I don't know anything about buying glass. So, what are some things that I should know? All I would be buying initially is a 28-70mm and a telephoto 70-30mm probably. I have no idea of pricing of lenses or anything. Thanks in advance.
 01/15/2006 08:28:36 PM · #2
A lot of people have the 50mm 1.8 witch is very good and only about $100. also the sigma 24-70 2.8 witch alot of people here have another great choice
 01/15/2006 08:32:22 PM · #3
Lenses can get pretty pricy. The big question is what do you shoot most. I have a 28-80mm that doesn't get much use because the kit lens that came with the camera is 18-55mm. I have a 85mm prime (which cost the most) and a 70-300mm which is real good. Someone posted an article on lenses here a while back. I wil do some digging and see if I can find it.
I am going to start looking for a 50mm. Anybody got one they want to sale?

Message edited by author 2006-01-15 20:32:45.
 01/15/2006 08:33:32 PM · #4
Get the kit lens and learn it...see what YOU want.

Then research lenses in that category -- wide angle (architecture, skateboarding) -- zoom (sports, wildlife) -- macro (bugs and small stuff) etc...........
 01/15/2006 08:33:58 PM · #5
Originally posted by dpaull:
Get the kit lens and learn it...see what YOU want.

Then research lenses in that category -- wide angle (architecture, skateboarding) -- zoom (sports, wildlife) -- macro (bugs and small stuff) etc...........


What he said..........
 01/15/2006 08:47:07 PM · #6
Basics:
You have basic consumer lenses (the kit lens, other inexpensive lenses). They are fine for some things, but once you have seen what a pro lens can do you will not like consumer glass. $100-400 more or less.
You have pro glass - the cost is more, but the optical quality is better, the physical construciton is better, the resale is better. $400 to 1300, with some specialty lenses costing big bucks.

You can get the OEM glass (nikon, canon, etc) or 3rd party lenses - tamron, tokina, sigma. 3rd party is less costly and often just as good.

then there are the specific lenses - some are better than others pro or 3rd part or what have you. Check the reviews section at //www.fredmiranda.com - although not all lenses are reviewed there.

General rules: The longer the zoom range, the more compromises have to be made in teh design of the lens, so something has to be given up (optical quality, speed, price, build quality, etc) An 18-200 lens is a 10x zoom and is consumer glass, even at $400. The tamron 28-75 2.8 at $350ish is pro glass and amongst the bests lenses out there.

Some of it depends on what you shoot - if you live for macro, then spend the bucks on a good macro lens. if wildlife is your thing, then your gonna want the longest zoom you can get. Indoors? Sports? Portraits?

If you are unsure, then the standard approach is to get several lenses...and here is where you will get 1,000 opinons if you ask 1,000 people. for canon, L glass is their top of the line lenses. You are pretty safe in buying them, but go look at the cost...there are less expensive alternatives.

Walkaround lens - this is where you should start. the kit lens is considered a walk around lens, a general purpose lens. My recomendation for either nikon or canon is the Tamron SP24-135 for $400. Great range, does macro, super sharp lens, pro quality, you cannot find a bad word about this lens in any review. The only drawback might be it is not a 2.8 constant aperture lens. No one makes one that covers this range.

the aforementioned tamron 28-75 2.8 is nice, but not very wide at 28mm. the sigma 18-50 2.8 EX is great also, nice and wide, but a bit short at only 50mm (the canon 17-40 4L is nice, but same issue and more costly too).
A nice telephoto is the sigma 70-300 4-5.6 APO super macro for about $200. Unless you spend $800+ you cannot beat it. for that $800 get the sigma 80-200 2.8. throw in a 1.4x telextender and you get the 300mm length back if you need it.

Do you ahve any friends? if they shoot what you do, brand wise, you can borrow their glass for a few shots and see what you like or dislike.
 01/15/2006 08:52:02 PM · #7
Generally when buying lenses the increased cost comes from the maximum aperture the lens has. The expensive lenses will usually allow for a maximum aperture of 2.8 (or less) throughout the zoom. The cheaper lenses will be something like 3.5-5.6....meaning that at your wide end the largest ap. you can use is 3.5 and at the long end the max. is 5.6. What this will mean to you is slower shutter speeds in low light situations. This can also be solved by using a tripod, but if you are going to want the most flexibilty you're going to want at least a max. ap. of 2.8. Hope that helps.
 01/15/2006 09:18:19 PM · #8
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
A nice telephoto is the sigma 70-300 4-5.6 APO super macro for about $200. Unless you spend $800+ you cannot beat it. for that $800 get the sigma 80-200 2.8. throw in a 1.4x telextender and you get the 300mm length back if you need it.

This has been a great thread for me. (Someone should make it a sticky thread).

Can you say more about the telextender? What is it? How does it work? Why do you need it?
 01/15/2006 09:28:00 PM · #9
An extender is a small set of lens that are placed between the camera and the main lens and have the effect of multiplying the focal length of the lens by some factor. They also have teh effect of reducing your aperature by a set number of stops. Common extenders are 1.4x (loose 1 stop) and 2.0x (loose 2 stops) so a 200mm 2.8 lens with the 1.4x extender will become a ~280 mm f4 lens.

Note some extenderslimited in which lenses they can be used with, the canon ones can only be used with L glass 135mm ( i beleive) and longer or L zooms longer then the 70-200.
 01/15/2006 10:11:26 PM · #10
Originally posted by dpaull:
Get the kit lens and learn it...see what YOU want.

Then research lenses in that category -- wide angle (architecture, skateboarding) -- zoom (sports, wildlife) -- macro (bugs and small stuff) etc...........


What he said.

Start with the kit lens and learn the ropes with it. Become comfortable with your camera-lens combination, once you're comfortable and know what you need you can strat adding to your lens collection. This is especially true if you have never used an SLR (film or digital) in your life before.
 01/16/2006 02:13:36 AM · #11
You guys are the best. I learned alot from this thread. Some really great replies!
 01/16/2006 02:47:40 AM · #12
The deal with lenses is that you really have to understand the bad stuff to fully appreciate the good stuff.

So you might think that it would be easy enough to buy a bad lens (lens A) and a better or "good" lens (lens B) and simply use them both and note the differences.

Sadly, due largely to sample to sample variation, this is rarely quite so cut and dried. With lenses, sometimes you get gems, and sometimes you get lemons... just like with most anything else.

Best advice then? If you go with Canon or Nikon, get the Kit lens (very versatile and some samples plain rock!) and a 50mm f1.8 (which, though cheap, is generally quite high in quality.)

See how the two lenses stack up against one another. Shoot them at the same aperture and see if there is any difference. And, depending on the lenses and the way you shoot, there may not be a big difference. If not, keep shooting and be happy. You probably got two good lenses, rather than two bad ones.
 01/16/2006 02:50:49 AM · #13
i think everything has been covered already that i was going to say, the best thing to say is try out some lenses and see whats best for you , i could say buy the canon 70 - 200 f2.8 IS L it rocks, but i know atleast 3 people who hate it cos its heavy and sometimes slow to focus.

you need to look at what photography your doing and then focus around that, over here in the uk some camera shops will rent you lenses to try, then if you buy it you get your rental back, so its a win win situation
 01/16/2006 03:20:27 AM · #14
Originally posted by Spitfire:
An extender is a small set of lens that are placed between the camera and the main lens and have the effect of multiplying the focal length of the lens by some factor. They also have teh effect of reducing your aperature by a set number of stops. Common extenders are 1.4x (loose 1 stop) and 2.0x (loose 2 stops) so a 200mm 2.8 lens with the 1.4x extender will become a ~280 mm f4 lens.

Note some extenderslimited in which lenses they can be used with, the canon ones can only be used with L glass 135mm ( i beleive) and longer or L zooms longer then the 70-200.


Originally posted by Spitfire:
the canon ones can only be used with L glass


Really?

Message edited by author 2006-01-16 03:20:47.
 01/16/2006 03:44:02 AM · #15
Originally posted by bluenova:


Originally posted by Spitfire:
the canon ones can only be used with L glass


Really?


Apparently so. The 70-200 and most of the long primes, I believe.
 01/16/2006 05:59:08 AM · #16
Does that mean the Canon brand of Xtender? What I mean is could I use a Kenko (for Canon) Extension Tube on a Tamron 70-300?

p.s. sorry to post off-topic

Message edited by author 2006-01-16 06:01:21.
 01/16/2006 07:03:41 AM · #17
Originally posted by TLL061:
A lot of people have the 50mm 1.8 witch is very good and only about $100. also the sigma 24-70 2.8 witch alot of people here have another great choice


I had decided against the Sigma, because of a few reviews I had read indicating some Chromatic Aberration present with that lense. It shows up in the form of Purple Fringing, which is something I am already familiar with having another lense that already does that...

So, I went with the Canon 28-135 USM IS lense. It's an awesome lense for the price. The Image Stabilization is excellent as well, it's sharp enough for my needs, focuses fast and quietly. Even though it is't quite as fast as I would like it to be, it does help take very decent shots.
 01/16/2006 07:33:12 AM · #18
Lots to say here. I will second both DPaull and Prof_fate verbatim.

However, I see that you are already using a G6. This could be a start to figuring out what you want. I used my Powershot S30 for around 2 years before going to a different camera. I knew enough from using it to realize that I actually wanted something a little more than 18-55mm zoom.

I had a chance to go shooting last weekend with a 300D and an 80-200mm F2.8L. Having shot a few thousand pictures or so already with my P&S cameras I pretty much felt comfortable with choosing this as a prime choice for me.

If you find that your G6 ends up leaving you short a lot, you are probably right to go for the 70-300mm.

The big thing here is if you want PRO level or just some good lenses. It should be worth noting that I do know a handful of pro's who actually own and use some of the cheaper lenses (like the Sigma 70-300 APO mentioned earlier by Prof_fate) and pull excellent results from them.

It is worthwhile to remember that most of the world's most memorable shots are not memorable because of technical quality, but because they are really great moments. This is what my pro friends keep telling me anyways. (Note: technical issues are usually very important in competing in the DPC challenges, but should not be viewed as an absolute judging platform for good or bad pics).

One thing that is important to know as well about lenses (for me anyhow) and has not yet been mentioned is that constant aperture lenses have less moving parts than lenses with a non-constant max aperture range. This means that if you focus on something and lock in, you can just zoom in or out to compose your picture. I found this to be really cool while shooting heavy sports action last weekend as well as some simpler still shots as well as I could zoom in to check focus and zoom out for composition. I liked it a LOT.

On the matter of choosing a body for the glass, that's an absolute necessity. When considering which direction to go, I put together a wish list of lenses and then tallied up the prices via B+H and found Nikon glass to be rather a lot more (and this for a list of only 4 lenses).

If someone is interested in buying a camera to have a good camera with a few good lenses, I usually recommend either Canon or Konica Minolta. More bang for your buck in either camp over the Nikon. A lot of people like to go for the KM if they know they don't need the Pro level stuff.

Typical lens lists include:

Kit lens 18-55 (canon) 18-70 (KM Circular aperture too)
Proprietary 50mm f1.8 (canon) f1.7 (KM)
70-300mm Sigma (for either mount)
reverse thread filter mount for the 50mm lens for increasing macro ability of the 70-300.

This whole package only costs a few hundred dollars and will set you up very nicely. If you really want to move up from there, you can try out the wide angle lenses (canon 10-22 or Tokina 12-24 F4), or a 100mm prime with macro. (1:1 ratio) (these can either be proprietary or from the other 3rd party brands like Tamron, Tokina, Sigma.... your choice here - different brands have different lengths, but they are all in the same ballpark 90mm to 105mm)

If you find the kit lens not up to snuff, you can always upgrade to the Tamron 28-75 F2.8. You lose a fair bit of wide angle, so I usually recommend people to consider picking up a really wide angle lens before this.

If you want to move up in a budget-wise way on the telephoto end, consider the Canon 70-200 F4.0L and a 1.4x Teleconverter.

Teleconverters aren't something I have researched enough, but I will say that there appears to be different qualities within brands. I used a pro-grade (the white one) kenko 2x with the 80-200mm f2.8L last weekend and found that it still handled very, very well and didn't appear to lose much sharpness at all. The canon TC is not supposed to work with that lens at all.

Extenders are DIFFERENT from Teleconverters. Teleconverters contain glass and lengthen your focal length. Extension tubes are just tubes with electrical contacts that decrease your focal length and increase your magnification for macro use.

Extension tubes can be used on non-fixed aperture lenses as far as I know, but Teleconverters usually affect the autofocus on less than pro lenses. If a lens has a max aperture over 5.6, I believe that it makes the autofocus impossible or very difficult.

Having a wider max aperture makes a big difference. If you can shoot at telephoto at F2.8, you will need half the shutter speed over shooting at F5.6. You will find that many IS lenses tend to have max telephoto max apertures around F5.6. The IS can buy you 2-3 stops (probably closer to 2 stops) without hand blur and is a nice buffer if your hand is pretty steady (I shoot at 350-400mm equiv. on my S2 at 1/40 without much camera shake with pretty good results). However, it only dampens motion on the camera end of things. Having the 2 extra stops in the actual light gathering ability means that in the same light conditions, at say 1/40, you will be able to shoot 1/160. That's a big difference and it can make a HUGE difference in moving subjects.

Price is often pretty close (IS is expensive), so the better lenses are better choices.

Of course if you chose Konica Minolta, you can pick up an affordable telephoto with superb glass AND get the anti-shake at no extra cost.

Hope it helps.

I'm not an expert, but I've been researching these things for nearly a year, saving money and getting ready to go DSLR in March. Most of what I have said can be found in other threads.

Message edited by author 2006-01-16 07:40:43.
 01/16/2006 07:45:06 AM · #19
Originally posted by dpaull:
Get the kit lens and learn it...see what YOU want.

Then research lenses in that category -- wide angle (architecture, skateboarding) -- zoom (sports, wildlife) -- macro (bugs and small stuff) etc...........


wide angle (architecture, skateboarding) -- telephoto (sports, wildlife) -- macro (bugs and small stuff)

...I would guess is what you really meant.
 01/16/2006 07:48:19 AM · #20
yeah, that's what I meant to say.
 01/16/2006 09:08:11 AM · #21
Canon's stand on the extenders and AF

I have used tamron's lower line of TC's, stacked, and AF does work (= to F11 base aperture). Kinda slow, but then with all this hardware the effetive focal length on a 210mm is 940mm..not going to handhold that easily, and 1/focal length means 1/1000 at f11 or more..you need a BRIGHT day for that one.
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