| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/31/2005 05:02:49 PM · #1 |
Okay, I spoke about getting a amature set of strobes off ebay in a thread a while back. They have arrived and I had a brief moment to set them up finally and get them tested.
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=321210
This is the set of strobes that I bought.
//cgi.ebay.com/3-studio-strobe-flash-2-softbox-3-backdrops-IR-trig-etc_W0QQitemZ7572791402QQcategoryZ107919QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Things to note:
I have a limited budget, and this purchase reflects that, please don’t point me to AB’s, they’re out of my price range right now.
I do not have a PC-synch port on my camera, do not have an adapter yet either. (suggestions on adapter to fit Minolta Maxxum type hot-shoe welcome)
Okay, prelim report and very short test, and mini seller report
The order came early, and on a holiday week, this means a lot to me. Very communicative also for me buying over Christmas, cheers to him (remind me to do my ebay feedback, ahem)
It was all packaged in a single box which was a little heavy for my wife, but not too much for me. It looks like he gets them from overseas in lots, and never opens them. Box was still nylon strapped. Everything was packaged neatly, and the boxes were undamaged.
The contents are listed on the link, so I’ll skip that.
Stands: little bit light, but I’m not buying heavy duty stuff here, just weekender portraits and stuff. This might be of benefit just for mobility purposes, as I will probably use these on location somewhere, or in a borrowed space. (There is NONE in my house, trust me) Will probably need some weights If ever I have a need for outdoor stuff, but I have to get portable power first, and that will mean we actually made some money first.
Backgrounds: a little bit less than expected, but they’ll do. Definitely NOT high quality muslin, the Black and White ones are my slightly shimmery nylon material. The “scenic” 10x20 background is some meshy light material that looks somewhat akin to dryer lint all pressed together, bleached, and then colored with a flower pattern. Photo tests of these will have to wait, installment 2 I guess.
Soft-boxes: One word: INSTRUCTIONS. There weren’t any. Apparently, in China, amateur photog’s are all clairvoyant. Mavrik found some directions on the web and things were sorted out pretty quickly. Tension is a little stiff, but should get better after they’re broken in. The poles came straight, and had to be bent till they fit the front notches on the outside of the soft-box, one short end at a time. The softbox assembly attaches to the strobes with four thumbscrews, which brings me to….
The strobes:
Construction: Okay, all the buttons and dials look kosher, but the entire thing is made of plastic, and it doesn’t look or feel like high-impact quality stuff. I was kinda worried when I opened them up. The thumbscrews for the soft-box left noticeable marks in the plastic notched ring set to hold the accessory when I unscrewed it for a check. Not gouges or deep cuts, but still marked. I’m thinking a few wraps around with Duct Tape will protect the strobe housing, and keep the soft-box from slipping without having to tighten the thing too much. The step-less rheostat for power adjustments is SWEET. Goes from 1/8th to Full, with marks at ¼ and ½ also. Nice long power and synch cords. Probably 15 feet (3 meters?) or so, didn’t measure.
Operation: Cycle time is good, seems to be about a second, didn’t time it or anything. VERY bright flash at full, enough to leave a green halo on my eyes facing the wall that it strobed.
And now I come to the problems. Remember that I said I had no synch port on my camera? Well these are supposed to work via the IR hotshoe adapter, or via recognition that your on-camera flash went off.
Problem 1: The IR adapter, does not fit a Minolta Maxxum Hotshoe. DOH!!.
Problem 2: How the hell do you get the flash to synch with the strobe??
Since problem one was insurmountable without buying more equipment, I set to working on problem two
With just one soft-box/strobe set up, I started to take some handheld test shots. To my eye, It looked like they were both firing simultaneously. But the pictures would come out like this:
I tried rear-synch, slow-synch, fill, whatever, everything came out too dark. I think I was catching the light just as it was falling off instead of the full flash. At this point, the kids were waking up and I had to pack everything up and away from them.
Fast forward to this morning, I tried again, Leaving my camera on Auto, and fiddling with the flash modes, power settings blah, blah, blah.
I then set the camera on shutter priority 1/125th . Viola!! She works!!! Why? I have no clue!! I Don’t care! Uh, but there’s a problem batman, tis a bit overexposed:
heh, so I set it to 1/500th, 1/100th, and 1/1600th, still over-exposed. I then switched to full manual, set my max(or min, whatever) f/ of 11, and 1/500th of a second. WooHOO!!
And then on 1/1000th, a little too dark, but just for a comparison.
Overall, I am pleased with the initial performance. The shadows even with just the one softbox are generally…. Well, soft as they should be.
Next, modeling tests, backgrounds, the other light in there… [sounds of daughter running to hide]
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:17:28 PM · #2 |
sounds like you need a light meter...
I used to work in a studio, and we would shoot f/11 at 1/60sec. So we'd set the camera manually for our settings, and then adjust the power to the strobes until the light meter read 1/60 at f/11... |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:24:52 PM · #3 |
It sounds like youre using shutter speed for the flash. When using flash you have to set the aperture. The shutter speed doesn't change much. Usually set between like 1/125 and 1/500.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:29:22 PM · #4 |
| Nice report wavelength! I found a similar exposure problem when using auto settings with my cameras and external flash triggered strobes, except that mine were always overexposed. But manual exposures (after experimenting a little) work very well. I soon realized that the auto settings in the camera were balanced for the internal flash only and did not take into consideration external strobes (obvious, huh?). In your case the underexposed images are likely the result of a delay in the trigger mechanism of the strobes, just as you indicated. |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:30:34 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by tryals15:
sounds like you need a light meter...
I used to work in a studio, and we would shoot f/11 at 1/60sec. So we'd set the camera manually for our settings, and then adjust the power to the strobes until the light meter read 1/60 at f/11... |
yeah, Light meter is on the list. ;-)
I'd rather stick with a quicker shutter than 1/60, but I'll have to find the balance between blinding the subject and freezing any action I guess.
Thanks for the advice.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:33:35 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by tryals15:
sounds like you need a light meter...
I used to work in a studio, and we would shoot f/11 at 1/60sec. So we'd set the camera manually for our settings, and then adjust the power to the strobes until the light meter read 1/60 at f/11... |
yeah, Light meter is on the list. ;-)
I'd rather stick with a quicker shutter than 1/60, but I'll have to find the balance between blinding the subject and freezing any action I guess.
Thanks for the advice. |
Yeah, I was never a big fan of the numbers, but it was a 'company' thing... I mentioned them only for example's sake. f/11 seems huge for portraits... Anyways, good luck with your adventure! |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:34:24 PM · #7 |
Wavelength, the reason it won't work in AUTO mode is that unlike onboard flash... the strobes don't have TTL control. tryals15 and danderson107 both make the point.
You'll want to set the camera then set the flashes for the setting you've chosen. f/11 at 1/250 is a good starting point.
You can calculate the flash setting (using guide numbers) w/o a light meter if you are mathmatically inclined to get a good starting point.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:38:37 PM · #8 |
I always shoot strobes manually and watch the histogram on my camera - I usually start around 1/250 with f8 as well and see what comes out - if it looks good, great. If not, I may shoot f7.1 or f11 or 1/200 instead.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:44:10 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Wavelength, the reason it won't work in AUTO mode is that unlike onboard flash... the strobes don't have TTL control. tryals15 and danderson107 both make the point.
You'll want to set the camera then set the flashes for the setting you've chosen. f/11 at 1/250 is a good starting point.
You can calculate the flash setting (using guide numbers) w/o a light meter if you are mathmatically inclined to get a good starting point. |
LOL, what guide numbers?? no insturctions remeber??
Guess I'll have to ask Mavrik where he got those softbox insturctions, and if they have th rest of them too. ;-)
I plan to mess around with the timings and report that later, as well as backgrounds and other stuff.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 05:46:39 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
I always shoot strobes manually and watch the histogram on my camera - I usually start around 1/250 with f8 as well and see what comes out - if it looks good, great. If not, I may shoot f7.1 or f11 or 1/200 instead. |
Where did you get those directions anyways??
heh, yeah. I see what I see when I get back home. We're still trying to figure out how to hide all this stuff from the in-laws. They get all naggy when we spend money. :O) Guess it will have to go upstairs for now.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 06:07:46 PM · #11 |
I didn't find instructions - I went back to the ebay auction and looked at the softbox closeups to figure out how it should be done and just passed my best guess on! lol
Well we'll def. talk about flash settings and such too - when you next setup.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 06:18:09 PM · #12 |
Rule number 1...
Don't use studio strobes without a lightmeter. :-/
For others reading this thread, If you are building a super cheap home studio you are better off using flourescent desk lights that are daylight balanced (Ott lights come to mind) that are continuos with digicams. You can then use your in-camera light meter to set exposure.
You will forever be doing the light shuffle without a meter for strobes..no matter how inexpensive the set-up. |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 06:30:33 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by danderson107:
It sounds like youre using shutter speed for the flash. When using flash you have to set the aperture. The shutter speed doesn't change much. Usually set between like 1/125 and 1/500. |
Yep with flashes you should dial the strobes for power not so much the camera. 1/60 like he said should be fine cause look here... this was shot at 0.8 seconds.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 06:34:16 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Originally posted by danderson107:
It sounds like youre using shutter speed for the flash. When using flash you have to set the aperture. The shutter speed doesn't change much. Usually set between like 1/125 and 1/500. |
Yep with flashes you should dial the strobes for power not so much the camera. 1/60 like he said should be fine cause look here... this was shot at 0.8 seconds.
|
you just love using that shot don't you?
hehehe.
Thanks for the advice guys. I will keep it in mind while my wife and I learn more about this.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 06:35:17 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Originally posted by danderson107:
It sounds like youre using shutter speed for the flash. When using flash you have to set the aperture. The shutter speed doesn't change much. Usually set between like 1/125 and 1/500. |
Yep with flashes you should dial the strobes for power not so much the camera. 1/60 like he said should be fine cause look here... this was shot at 0.8 seconds.
|
you just love using that shot don't you?
hehehe.
Thanks for the advice guys. I will keep it in mind while my wife and I learn more about this. |
LOL yeah, it's a good example though. Just got it printed and framed too :-)
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 09:04:45 PM · #16 |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 09:06:58 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Bump just because. |
And I'm watching and keeping notes... LOL
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 09:13:28 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:
Originally posted by wavelength:
Bump just because. |
And I'm watching and keeping notes... LOL |
hehe, I was going to PM you tonight if you hadn't responded since you were so interested in the last thread. :-)
Message edited by author 2005-12-31 21:13:41. |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 11:19:04 PM · #19 |
I got that set last year and yes moved on to Bees (2-400's and 2 800's)about one month ago. I hated that it didn't come with instructions but they are a great set to get started with. I noticed two problems with my set and a friend of mine has them too w/the same issues. One strobe doesn't always fire and it's the same one that you can't wire sink too. I think there is an adapter that you can buy to place on your camera. They do respond quickly to questions and are very helpful. GL and enjoy!!
I did purchase a meter but now that I have a better handle I barely use it anymore. But it's great and probably more of a most when you start. |
|
|
|
12/31/2005 11:50:24 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by rebelgirl:
I got that set last year and yes moved on to Bees (2-400's and 2 800's)about one month ago. I hated that it didn't come with instructions but they are a great set to get started with. I noticed two problems with my set and a friend of mine has them too w/the same issues. One strobe doesn't always fire and it's the same one that you can't wire sink too. I think there is an adapter that you can buy to place on your camera. They do respond quickly to questions and are very helpful. GL and enjoy!!
I did purchase a meter but now that I have a better handle I barely use it anymore. But it's great and probably more of a most when you start. |
Cool, I'll be sure to test that and see if I can come up with anything.
|
|
|
|
12/31/2005 11:59:34 PM · #21 |
While digi cams don't have shutters, dSLRs do and the sync speed for flash is limit that is real Since it takes tine for light to travel, although it is fast, you should keep the shutter at 1/125. Inexpensive strobes ususaly have a long flash on time, and a fast shutter speed will eliminate some of the light being recorded. Set the shutter speed and leave it be. the speed of the flash will stop any motion. (slw flash being 1/800 or so. fast is 1/3000 or more).
Use aperture to control exposure. to control the light output - you can adjust it onthe strobe obviously, or move the strobe back from the subject - move it from 3 feet to 6 feet cuts the light by 75%, NOT 50%. inverse squaare law or some such.
adding a softbox or gels will reduce the flash output too. you can get neutral density gels for strobes, it'll reduce the output but not color the light.
general rule on softboxes that i read - a 2x2 foot softbox should be set at 2 foot form the subject. a 2x3 3 foot from the subject - these are for the optimum effect of the softbox.
|
|
|
|
01/01/2006 12:10:01 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
While digi cams don't have shutters, dSLRs do and the sync speed for flash is limit that is real Since it takes tine for light to travel, although it is fast, you should keep the shutter at 1/125. Inexpensive strobes ususaly have a long flash on time, and a fast shutter speed will eliminate some of the light being recorded. Set the shutter speed and leave it be. the speed of the flash will stop any motion. (slw flash being 1/800 or so. fast is 1/3000 or more).
Use aperture to control exposure. to control the light output - you can adjust it onthe strobe obviously, or move the strobe back from the subject - move it from 3 feet to 6 feet cuts the light by 75%, NOT 50%. inverse squaare law or some such.
adding a softbox or gels will reduce the flash output too. you can get neutral density gels for strobes, it'll reduce the output but not color the light.
general rule on softboxes that i read - a 2x2 foot softbox should be set at 2 foot form the subject. a 2x3 3 foot from the subject - these are for the optimum effect of the softbox. |
My softbox was about 4 feet out and performed pretty well.
I see your comment about the flash speed, I imagine it was on the order of 1/800th, because when I stopped down to 1/1000th, the light fell off noticeably. If it were 1/3000th, I don't think I would have seen it do that because the flash would have been within the 1/1000th at full power still.
I will adjust the strobes down and check how things look at 1/125th.
|
|
|
|
01/01/2006 01:05:31 AM · #23 |
Shutter speed is not very useful with studio lighting. The flash duration becomes your "theoretical shutter speed". Most strobes have a duration of about 1/5,000 to 1/10,000 so the camera shutter speed is normally set to 1/125 and normally doesn't vary far.
Aperture and ISO are how you control exposure in the studio. Normally this is the settings I would start with:
Mode: Manual mode
Shutter: 1/125
ISO: 100 or lower
Aperture: f8
Now if you don't have a meter then you have to take a guess for the first shot. No biggy. Once you see the exposure set the aperture based on that shot. If it's overexposed then stop down or turn back the power on the strobes.
Soft boxes. The optimal distance is determined using the Pythagorean theorem. So for a 3x4 softbox the "optimal" distance is 5 feet. This appears to be the best starting point but moving the softbox in and out until you see the light "pop" works well. I prefer to start long and move the light in until it looks great.
Rebecca Portrait
If you have any questions you can message me directly.
|
|
|
|
01/01/2006 01:30:15 AM · #24 |
The highest sync spped is the fastest shutter speed at which the entire sensor (or frame of film) will be exposed long enough for the very fast burst of light from the strobe to illuminate the scene. If the shutter speed is set higher, the rear curtain starts to close before the front curtain has exposed the far edge of the film. At the higher shutter speeds, the shutter is really a moving slit. If you use a higher shutter speed than the sync speed, a portion of the frame will not be illuminated by the flash.
The mechanical and electrical components of the camera operate at speeds that are several orders of magnitude slower than light, the travel of the light can be considered instantaneous, it's the duration of the flash that is important.
The strobe will be quite brief and is usually adequate for freezing just about any action, any blurring will be caused by residual incandescent lighting, so it may be in your best interest to keep the room lights low.
If you are shooting something that is moving really quick and you get blur with your strobe, you can try reducing the power setting, strobes typically control power by reducing the duration of the flash burst. If that doesn't work, you may need some specialized lighting, but I doubt you will run into that unless you are shooting things that are happening very, very fast.
If you can't get enough light out of your strobes and your subject is stationary, you can also simply open the shutter and fire the flash repeatedly until the correct amount of exposure is achieved.
2 pops = 1 stop
4 pops = 2 stops
8 pops = 3 stops and so on.
We used this trick a lot in the studio when we had limited light power and needed to shoot at f64 to get the DOF. Some light meters will even calculate how many pops you need to expose correctly using this technique. I've never tried this with digital, so I can't say that there's not a limit due to sensor noise from having it active so long.
Message edited by author 2006-01-01 01:31:45.
|
|
|
|
01/01/2006 03:56:04 AM · #25 |
Holy Smokes Spaz! What are you shooting at f64?
|
|
