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07/03/2003 01:07:39 AM · #1 |
I write this to pose a challenge. I think that the comments made during the challenges are not what they once were. At one time there was once a thing called constructive criticism here. This is a place where one should be able to come and be comforted for effort made. I think it is not good enough to leave a comment such as, "This shot does not meet the challenge"
I challenge everyone to do what is right and give constructive criticism. If something does not fit a challenge or if in your oppinion, something does not fit a particular challenge. Then constructive criticism on how one might improve thier photo is warrented.
Conclusion:
Leaving a comment such as, "There is no speed here" is not good enough.
Don't bother leaving a comment. If you can not help someone get better or improve a photograph here,and you leave a stupid smart comment, you are worse off then a person who may misunderstand a challenge.
John (TurboTech) |
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07/03/2003 01:56:35 AM · #2 |
| I disagree... it takes a lot of time to leave a comment, relatively speaking so you should be happy with each comment you get. You can't expect that everyone who is inclined in the first place to take the time to leave a comment, be forced to give a detailed reason why they "don't think it meets the challenge". Just be glad they left the comment and try to figure out for yourself what they mean by that. :) |
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07/03/2003 02:16:57 AM · #3 |
if u think a few one liners like those are bad, check out my recent submissions. I know my photos are rather poor, but even the one-liners tells me how other ppl perceive what I've shot. I've also learned that to get the best "understanding" from the majority of voters, go shoot something OBVIOUSLY related to the challenge. And since this is a US site, try something the Americans have seen before.
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07/03/2003 03:40:17 AM · #4 |
This issue poses a problem for me. I have (until 'Speed') been quite informative in comments, but having seen so many shots 'off-brief' in this one I've resorted to low scores and short comments for them, as there are more deserving shots that I can leave in-depth comments for.
After all, I bothered to take a shot relevant to the challenge (not that many people either like it or even relate to it - one comment I got was '? What is this ?' - very helpful). Some are even trying to make their shot related to the challenge by alluding to speed in the title alone. It's not enough and standards will drop unless voting is tighter.
I also suspect that there's an element of truth in Shadow's comment on the US angle. It does seem that abstract and less sentimental shots suffer in the votes compared to the cliche and staged 'pretty pictures' - see 'Country Life' for example.
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07/03/2003 04:00:10 AM · #5 |
| Oh my gosh. I really am missing the point. This whole time I have been missing the point. I thought for some odd reason that the worst pictures that needed the most help should be the ones with the longest comments. Well thank you for flying me straight. |
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07/03/2003 04:13:44 AM · #6 |
I agree that there is an obvious American slant to the site - I submitted an image of a ladybird and had two Americans tell me that it's not a ladybird, I mean "lady bug". Well, no, actually, it was shot in England and that's what we call them here, expand your horizons, please!
That said, I think that things that are obviously foreign to the US voter won't necessarily get marked down, they may have novelty appeal.
I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving a comment "Doesn't fit the challenge" and no more. I think it's very important to fit the challenge with your image, else why bother to enter a picture FOR the challenge instead of just putting it in your portfolio? If you meet the basics of the competition (and you ARE competing against others for a ribbon, whether you want to claim you're entering for feedback or not, your picture is voted upon like everyone else's) then at that point it's worth criticising the picture further and giving guidance. There are a lot of shots in these challenges, and I'm not about to waste my time giving feedback to people who submit any old picture along with a title that tries to shoehorn it into the topic.
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07/03/2003 05:08:09 AM · #7 |
Turbotech - I agree that such a comment doesn't really help, but ChrisW123, also makes a good point to "try to figure out for yourself what they mean by that."
I don't know which one's your pic, nor did I make any comments this time around, But there was a bit of talk in this thread
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=31143
about why some people felt a few of the images didn't meet the challenge.
Have a read there - maybe someone has made a comment that could relate indirectly to your shot, and may give you some understanding as to why the comment was left.
Jon Lucas - I know how you feel. Been here only a short time and have rated entries from 3 submissions, leaving comments on around 60% or so of them (not all of them helpful I admit, but after 3 hours of rating it starts getting difficult to come up with something useful to say).
Before voting on the Speed challenge, I had a quick look through and just couldn't see how I was going to leave a helpful comment for many of the entries. So I ended up only leaving one comment and that was for the entry that I thought was the most derserving (and definitely gave me the impression of speed).
Richard
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 05:28:56. |
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07/03/2003 06:02:13 AM · #8 |
TT - I partly agree with you here. I think that there has been a ton of people bitching about not getting comments and their photo's not doing particularly well. They want to know why. If your photo isn't doing well, then IMO that's possibly due to some of the voters not thinking your photo is topic appropriate, if your photo isn't tiny, washed out, pixelated, blurry or otherwise "technically unsound". That would definitely be an answer to why the photo isn't doing particularly well, which is at least some reason to why they voted it down. Would it be better to get a 1 or 2 with no explanation whatsoever? I feel it is a very nice gesture (above and beyond what I expect them to do) to say that my photo doesn't meet the challenge but this is what they like about it or dislike about it. I think I would be grateful they did, but not disappointed if they didn't.
The part I agree with is that the commenting here is not at all like it was in the old days when we had 200 photos in one challenge and sometimes quite a few less. I feel there are 3 big reasons for this
1-just the sheer number of photos
2-that it used to be comments from anonymous people
3-fewer people leave constructive criticism because I think in at least some cases, it isn't "helpful" and they don't want to be offensive at all.
There have been other reasons stated for people not leaving many comments or many constructive comments. Some are claiming they don't have a lot of experience. So what. Say what's on your mind... No one will be hurting my feelings for any length of time over a comment on a photo. They fail to realize that this is inherent to their own successes.
I've never been short on breath in terms of my opinions, obviously :) I leave a fair amount of comments. I've tried to go about it from several different angles. Leaving a few long comments, leaving more slightly detailed comments, but I think a happy medium there is my comfort zone. You have to pat the good ones on the back, that's given. The medium ones need the most help. The ones that do very poorly are probably best to go back to the drawing board, but no one wants to tell them that. I know I don't.
Anyway, that's my insight FWIW. Hope you find some resolution TT
Bob
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 10:20:02.
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07/03/2003 06:09:43 AM · #9 |
how about an un-offical rule to name our photo submission starting with a "HM" for anyone who wants the commentors to be fully honest? So when a voter see a photo with "HM" in the front, that means he/she do not mind a negative comment from voters. For instance:
"HM - Speedometer"
"HM - my backyard"
So if I see a submission with "HM" in the title, and I have some negative comments to say, I will bravely put it in, as I know the photographer would appreciate an honest comment, no matter how bad it is. What do you all think? Let this be unofficial, but I think it's cool if we can have this working right.
BTW, "HM" simply means "Hit Me" :)
EDIT: I decide to spin-off this HM thing into another thread. See if the other DPC members likes it, click here.
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 06:21:18.
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07/03/2003 07:04:02 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Turbotech:
Oh my gosh. I really am missing the point. This whole time I have been missing the point. I thought for some odd reason that the worst pictures that needed the most help should be the ones with the longest comments. Well thank you for flying me straight. |
Thanks for the sarcasm!! As I mentioned above, it's purely whether they meet the challenge or not. I won't waste time criticising either a decent or poor shot if it's missed the brief in the first place. If a shot's on-brief and it's poor I always spend time to offer constructive criticism, as quite often the truly brilliant shots do not need my help!!
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07/03/2003 08:55:31 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by hawkida:
I agree that there is an obvious American slant to the site - I submitted an image of a ladybird and had two Americans tell me that it's not a ladybird, I mean "lady bug". Well, no, actually, it was shot in England and that's what we call them here, expand your horizons, please!
That said, I think that things that are obviously foreign to the US voter won't necessarily get marked down, they may have novelty appeal.
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Originally posted by shadow:
And since this is a US site, try something the Americans have seen before.
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So, with well over 8,000 WORLD WIDE users/members on this site, these are fair statements?
Let's not turn this into a rant about Americans again shall we?
Back to Turbotech's original topic:
I understand the basis for your impetus to write this thread. I think the "does not meet the challenge" comment examples you gave were meant to be examples and now everyone thinks you are griping about getting just those comments.
Let's expand:
Turbo is right, I think that since so many put "learning" is an emphasis on this site, then a call for more/better comments are in order. It is merely a plea to the masses.
:) |
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07/03/2003 08:58:09 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by inspzil:
TT - I partly agree with you here. I think that there has been a ton of people bitching about not getting comments and there photos not doing particularly well. They want to know why. If someone doesn't think your photo meets the challenge, then IMO that's probably due in part to some of the voters obviously not thinking your photo is topic appropriate. That would definitely be an answer to why the photo isn't doing particularly well. I feel it is a very nice gesture (above and beyond what I expect them to do) to say that my photo doesn't meet the challenge but this is what they like about it or dislike about it. I think I would be grateful they did, but not disappointed if they didn't.
The part I agree with is that the commenting here is not at all like it was in the old days when we had 200 photos in one challenge and sometimes quite a few less. I feel there are 3 big reasons for this
1-just the sheer number of photos
2-that it used to be comments from anonymous people
3-fewer people leave constructive criticism because I think in at least some cases, it isn't "helpful" and they don't want to be offensive at all.
There have been other reasons stated for people not leaving many comments or many constructive comments. Some are claiming they don't have a lot of experience. So what. Say what's on your mind... No one will be hurting my feelings for any length of time over a comment on a photo. They fail to realize that this is inherent to their own successes.
I've never been short on breath in terms of my opinions, obviously :) I leave a fair amount of comments. I've tried to go about it from several different angles. Leaving a few long comments, leaving more slightly detailed comments, but I think a happy medium there is my comfort zone. You have to pat the good ones on the back, that's given. The medium ones need the most help. The ones that do very poorly are probably best to go back to the drawing board, but no one wants to tell them that. I know I don't.
Anyway, that's my insight FWIW. Hope you find some resolution TT
Bob |
Agreed. :) |
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07/03/2003 10:18:28 AM · #13 |
I feel that a person does the site a far better service if they leave a few good, honest, constructive comments than leaving an unexplained, short, non helpful comment on all of the entries.
If every voter simply left 10 good comments, on the first ten pictures that came up, a whole lot of people would feel more in the picture, so to speak. Pictures come up randomly so everyone would be affected. This would allow each person more time to evaluate the rest of the pictures, which I don't think is being done. I feel that overall there is too big a rush in the voting process.
Just my opinion,
Dick
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 10:19:36. |
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07/03/2003 10:20:03 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by autool:
I feel that a person does the site a far better service if they leave a few good, honest, constructive comments than leaving an unexplained, short, non helpful comment on all of the entries.
If every voter simply left 10 good comments, on the first ten pictures that came up, a whole lot of people would feel more in the picture, so to speak. Pictures come up randomly so everyone would be affected. This would allow each person more time to evaluate the rest of the pictures, which I don't think is being done. I feel that overall there is too big a rush in the voting process.
Just my opinion,
Dick |
Very well put. |
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07/03/2003 10:27:47 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by autool:
If every voter simply left 10 good comments, on the first ten pictures that came up ... |
That is a very good idea.
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07/03/2003 10:37:26 AM · #16 |
So, with well over 8,000 WORLD WIDE users/members on this site, these are fair statements?
Yes, I think my statements are perfectly fair. I have had Americans telling me that my title is incorrect when it isn't, and I have seen similar comments on an older picture of a robin in the challenge archives. There may be worldwide members, there may be a lot of them, but a significant number of voters are American with American biases and American experiences. It DOES make a significant impact on the voting and it can be frustrating for those of us who don't have the same background, but I think that it can also work in our favour.
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 10:38:15.
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07/03/2003 10:39:35 AM · #17 |
My method to this madness lately has been to go and vote my gut through all the pictures (taking mental notes on them and what I think), then I am going through the ones I rated 4 and under and comment on those VERY first (because those are the ones that I feel would need the "criticism" the most). I then will do the first 5-10 of my highest scores (just how they come up on the thumbs page). I then try to get through 5-10 in each of the other ranked groups and then start back up the ranks. Depending how much time I can devote to it I may get through 10% of the photos (in the large challenges) up to over 90%. I feel this best uses my time to learn on what to do and what not to do. I also hope it helps others. Becuase that is what I am looking for.
Oh yeah, what if there was a requirement (like the percentage you have to vote on to count) of commenting on at least ten, or your votes don't count? This is a very minimal amount and would not take more than 15-30 minutes to comment on, if not less?
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 10:41:45.
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07/03/2003 11:28:57 AM · #18 |
Thanks Karen and bod for the feedback on my post.
Dacrazyrn: The site tried requiring everyone to comment at one time and it failed miserably. People would just leave shitty poorly constructed one word comments to fill the requirement.
I have just completed voting and commenting on 32 of the entries (random) in the "B" challenge. I started yesterday and finished them today and spent quite a bit of time doing it. I have recieved one PM, thanking me for the constructive criticism. He felt good and now I feel good.
Now that is what this site is all about!
Dick
Message edited by author 2003-07-03 11:32:31. |
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07/03/2003 03:51:33 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by autool:
Dacrazyrn: The site tried requiring everyone to comment at one time and it failed miserably. People would just leave shitty poorly constructed one word comments to fill the requirement.
Dick |
I figured it had been attempted, and figured that would be the result. Too bad people just won't take it oo themselves to comment on at least 10. I have done about 11 in the B challenge. Going to time myself on the next ten.
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07/03/2003 04:04:39 PM · #20 |
Okay there is another ten I did for those who won't comment. how long did that take since my last post? And they were 2-3 sentence comments, also. and I am no world class typer.
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07/03/2003 04:12:41 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
Okay there is another ten I did for those who won't comment. how long did that take since my last post? And they were 2-3 sentence comments, also. and I am no world class typer. |
I'm afraid it is mostly a thankless effort, but at least you know you did your part to help the site out. Many people do appreciate it but there are those that are just here for the ride.
Thank you
Dick |
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07/03/2003 05:05:25 PM · #22 |
Greetings
I have taken enough photos to realize that my skills are lacking.
I came to this site to learn! Every photo I see or post, with or without comments teaches something. Other than what I like and don't like I really have no grounds to critisize anyone. I have made comments in regard to something I did or did not like about a particular photo.
As to comments about my photos, even what may have seemed to be a mundane comment was helpful to me, but I have an open mind and want to learn new things, There, now I feel better.
Have a Fun Day |
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07/03/2003 05:46:34 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by barahoo:
Greetings
I have taken enough photos to realize that my skills are lacking.
I came to this site to learn! Every photo I see or post, with or without comments teaches something. Other than what I like and don't like I really have no grounds to critisize anyone. I have made comments in regard to something I did or did not like about a particular photo.
As to comments about my photos, even what may have seemed to be a mundane comment was helpful to me, but I have an open mind and want to learn new things, There, now I feel better.
Have a Fun Day |
Welcome to DPC,I especially liked your "Fence Line". Keep up the good work. |
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07/03/2003 07:03:01 PM · #24 |
While poking my nose around the "Country Life" results; I kinda agree with HAWKINDA. But perhaps the Americans arn't the only to blame. It is a pity though that so many vote according to what they see around them. If a photo doesn't immediatly seem to fit the challege, I wonder why and try to find the association before I vote or comment. It might be an attemt at cleverness or abstract interpretation.
As for my comments, I try to be honest, helpfull and encouraging. Sometimes I don't have the time to be very thourough (or apparently `clear' in my message), but I feel that if you have negative criticisim you could be helpfull and make a suggestion on how it could be improved.
I share the opinion that this is a fun site where you LEARN how to improve.
If you don't like, understand, or agree with a comment you've received - respond; explain your intention; ask for more information.
I would try to be more helpfull.
Have a good day,
Good luck to all.
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07/03/2003 07:17:40 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by autool:
...I have recieved one PM, thanking me for the constructive criticism. He felt good and now I feel good.
Now that is what this site is all about!
Dick |
I just checked my 8 comments, and they were all pretty detailed and specific (although mostly about what they didn't like) and quite lengthy. I don't like to respond until after the challenge though, and then I usually don't get around to it ... I have suggested a direct "reply to comment" button (to bypass wandering through the profiles) to facilitate that, but it hasn't happened.
I'll mark off as helpful any comment I can recognise as relating specifically to my photo, and mostly ignore the others. I think we need to give more appreciation to those who do comment effectively, and quit putting so much energy into those who don't. |
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