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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> UN Report: Forced marriages & honor killings in Turkey
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11/22/2005 10:29:58 AM · #1
(This is in Turkey, which is regarded as one of the most westernized Islamic states. Yeah...I think we are doing the right thing forcing change. I have friends who were raped. It was a torturous ordeal that left many of them cowered in their houses for over a year. To force such victims to marry the rapist or be killed to maintain family honor is, frankly, disgusting.)

Women 'forced to wed rapists or die'

Key points
• UN report says Turkish women forced by families to wed rapists
• Hundreds of Turkish women killed in 'honour killings' each year, says report
• Report comes as Turkish government pressed to reform to join EU

Key quote
"When a girl is raped by a man, since she is no longer a virgin, it is usually believed that the best way to solve the problem is to get them married, especially if the man is not already married" - UN report

Story in full RAPE victims in Turkey can be forced by their own families to marry their rapists - or risk being killed in the name of family honour, according to a United Nations report released today.

//thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2279292005
11/22/2005 10:39:05 AM · #2
Originally posted by theSaj:

Yeah...I think we are doing the right thing forcing change.


What exactly are you condoning here, attacking Turkey???
For rape victims???
11/22/2005 10:53:06 AM · #3
Originally posted by theSaj:


Key quote
"When a girl is raped by a man, since she is no longer a virgin, it is usually believed that the best way to solve the problem is to get them married, especially if the man is not already married" - UN report

Story in full RAPE victims in Turkey can be forced by their own families to marry their rapists - or risk being killed in the name of family honour, according to a United Nations report released today.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29(NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Message edited by author 2005-11-22 11:03:25.
11/22/2005 11:07:05 AM · #4
Originally posted by theSaj:

(This is in Turkey, which is regarded as one of the most westernized Islamic states...


TheSaj,

read about Turkey before you make a statement like this.
Turkey is a secular nation, it has nothing to do with Islam Law (I guess as much as US constitution is tied to the bible.)

This rant is unnecessary and it started off of a wrong premise.

We can talk about human rights abuse, but not under these terms.
11/22/2005 12:29:25 PM · #5
Deuteronomy 22:28-29(NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Yes, if you understand the key par there "He can never divorce her as long as he lives." was the fact that he took away her eligibility for marrying another so the law in Deuteronomy demanding he pay for her support.

It was designed to force the rapist to pay for his crime.

As for the marriage part, that is not enforced...and it goes to show that much of Islam is in dire need of a "renaissance". Even as written it is much different than "killing the victim". Rather it is demanding that since the perpetrator has made the woman undesirable to any other man in said culture. Instead of the woman having to become a harlot to support herself once her father died. The perpetrator is responsible for her well-being.

It's a much much different scenario. The above law prevented a raped woman who was an only child from being left destitute with no support.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by theSaj:

Yeah...I think we are doing the right thing forcing change.


What exactly are you condoning here, attacking Turkey???
For rape victims???


Nope...being involved in the middle-east and trying to introduce both "Democracy" and an understanding of "basic human rights" within government.

Originally posted by srdanz:


Turkey is a secular nation, it has nothing to do with Islam Law


Wrong. Turkey is a secular government. But these events do have to deal explicity with Islamic law. Islamic law is the basis for such events within Turkey. And whether Turkey's government is secular, much of the society very much embraces Islamic law.

It is one of the reasons that there has been so much issue with the idea of Turkey joining the European Union. Because, althought it's a secular government much of it's society is not based on Western Principles.

11/22/2005 12:31:18 PM · #6
Originally posted by theSaj:

Yes, if you understand the key par there "He can never divorce her as long as he lives." was the fact that he took away her eligibility for marrying another so the law in Deuteronomy demanding he pay for her support.

It was designed to force the rapist to pay for his crime.


Oh, lucky bride. A husband and a rapist all rolled into one.

Message edited by author 2005-11-22 12:37:49.
11/22/2005 12:56:13 PM · #7
Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by theSaj:

Yes, if you understand the key par there "He can never divorce her as long as he lives." was the fact that he took away her eligibility for marrying another so the law in Deuteronomy demanding he pay for her support.

It was designed to force the rapist to pay for his crime.


Oh, lucky bride. A husband and a rapist all rolled into one.


Rather unlucky, which is why I mentioned that the predominantly Islam regions are in need of a renaissance. In fact, my entire point was that I view such as wrong. But I pointed out there was a distinguishment from what is going on in Turkey and from the law excerpt of Deuteronomy.

Which added a protection to a common "social behavior" of that day. My point being. That behavior was wrong. But where as most Judeo-Christian derived western societies have abandoned such practice. It is still very much alive in the strongly pre-dominatly muslim regions.

Furthermore, in those regions it is skewed so as to make the victim a criminal and bear the penalty of death.

I agree, that the practices of those days were barbaric. And the stipulation that a rapist could not abandon support was a small consolation. (This clause is more akin to our "alimony and child support" than the "marry or we kill you woman" practice being described.)

11/22/2005 01:17:24 PM · #8
Originally posted by theSaj:


It is one of the reasons that there has been so much issue with the idea of Turkey joining the European Union. Because, althought it's a secular government much of it's society is not based on Western Principles.


Nope. The reason EU is stalling Turkey's admission to EU is the status of Kurds in Turkey, not the fact that the majority in Turkey are following Islam as religion. C'mon, you can't (publicly) state that non-christian nation cannot join EU because of what people in that country choose to believe in.

Now that we have established that Turkey is a secular state (its government, OK) where does the term 'Islamic law" kick in?

Holy books - all of them - protect women as much as you want to interpret it. There is no parallel law in Turkey, as much as some would want it to be.

I find your reasoning skewed by desire to single out a religious group and bash it in this rant. Not something to be proud of. Also, there are other issues that you may want to bring up that would have more validity and backing - don't try to make something out of this one that isn't. You can find beliefs and customs in every country in the world that you would find objectionable, but rarely you would generalize it as one's country problem or ones religion problem.

Stop calling for the crusade, please. Granted, some kind of reform is overdue, but it cannot happen as long as there is a sense of oppression from the west that lingers in the air of the near east. Progressive forces must come from within, and that can happen only if there is prosperity in the region. And that cannot be forced on anyone.

We must realize that every single call for a change that comes from here comes across as an aggression. If we were to help, we need to do so in other ways.

respectfully,

-Serge
11/22/2005 01:29:43 PM · #9
Originally posted by theSaj:

Wrong. Turkey is a secular government. But these events do have to deal explicity with Islamic law. Islamic law is the basis for such events within Turkey. And whether Turkey's government is secular, much of the society very much embraces Islamic law.

It is one of the reasons that there has been so much issue with the idea of Turkey joining the European Union. Because, althought it's a secular government much of it's society is not based on Western Principles.


Alas! Ignorance knows no limits. I wish you were as quick to educate yourself on matters you obviously know nothing about as you are to pass judgement on nations/cultures/people/what have you. I won't bother giving you a whole dissertation about Turkish history, politics, culture and way of life, because I always refrain from debating with people who have no idea what they are talking about. My only friendly advice to you: Acquire a good deal of knowledge on things before forming any opinions about them.

Message edited by author 2005-11-22 13:30:59.
11/22/2005 01:59:02 PM · #10
The U.N. report discussed in the article you cited does not mention Islam as a factor in these "honor killings." It states:

"The report, by the United Nations Population Fund, is the first in-depth study in Turkey of the different motivations behind "honour-killings", where women and young girls are murdered by their relatives for allegedly bringing shame on the family.

"The issue is a major concern for the European Union, which is monitoring human rights improvements made by Turkey in its attempt to join the EU by 2015.

"Many such killings take place in poorer communities where family life is dominated by patriarchal and tribal traditions. (emphasis added)

"The UN report reveals that in such communities, women who have been raped are often seen as having dishonoured their families."

The report apparently doesn't mention Islam at all, at least not according to the authors of the article.

Message edited by author 2005-11-22 14:02:37.
11/22/2005 02:00:02 PM · #11
"Holy books - all of them - protect women as much as you want to interpret it."

So the deciding factor is renaissance...

"The reason EU is stalling Turkey's admission to EU is the status of Kurds in Turkey, not the fact that the majority in Turkey are following Islam as religion."

Perhaps....and what is the status of the Kurds? and why? And yes, I politicians are known to never express their real issues. I am sure, when the issue of the Kurds are resolved...there will be another issue of contention that the EU will bring up.

Originally posted by "tycho":

I won't bother giving you a whole dissertation about Turkish history, politics, culture and way of life, because I always refrain from debating with people who have no idea what they are talking about.


Please do...please give me a dissertation explaining why such a practice as mentioned in the original post is repeatedly done in said nation? As compared to western nations which would look on such an act with utter horror.

"I find your reasoning skewed by desire to single out a religious group and bash it in this rant. Not something to be proud of."

Goodness gracious, it's done to christians in western society all the time. And people are quite proud of that fact.

Secondly, I am addressing a region in need of a renaissance.

"You can find beliefs and customs in every country in the world that you would find objectionable, but rarely you would generalize it as one's country problem or ones religion problem."

Yes you can, i myself have some issues with "western culture". But some societies have a basic understanding of human rights (there may be discrepancies, "death penalty", "abortion", etc.) but in general there is an concept of attempting to protect such basic human rights.

Than there are regions in which such concepts are not the norm or pre-dominant thought and abuse runs rampant.

"Progressive forces must come from within, and that can happen only if there is prosperity in the region."

Progressive forces seldom can come from within, not with the advent of tanks and AK-47's. Yes, we can look to Russia, but there was immense involvement and opposition from the outside. My point is the "inside" must be supported from the "outside".

You claim crusade. You think I simply want war. I do not, I want immensely more involvement. I want to see us replace their textbooks (many of which laden with hate speech paid for by extremists and printed in Iran) with generally neutral textbooks. I am also a strong advocate of an major increase in the peace-corp.

But I definitely believe we need to involved. No, not just militarily.

FOR EXAMPLE, here is a post I made in another forum recently:

The problem is we live in a screwed up world, and as individuals, we tend to contribute to more screwiness of the world.

So should America go back to being neutral (and turning a blind-eye) or do we endeavor to be involved.

My choice, personally, is to be involved....but to do so rightly. I think we in America are experiencing the consequences of our compromise. We tolerated "lesser" evils in order to defeat a larger perceived threat. However, such a compromise of values has led to a dichotomy of sorts.

I believe doing the right thing hurts, I also believe doing the right thing after we SHOULD have been doing the right thing hurts much more.

(ie: exercising and staying in shape will greatly reduce your chance for diabetes, it requires work and expenditure and will hurt, ache, etc.

however, eating the right things after becoming a diabetic is also good and necessary (no cake, no milk chocolate, blargh...it hurts). But it would hurt even more if we didn't do these things. We'd lose limbs, go blind, etc.

But the truth of the matter, if we had done right from the beginning the second would not be an issue.

This is where I think we've made grave mistakes since 1945. We said we fought the cold war to preserve Democracy but we often allowed tyrants, dictators, and rights-abusers to stand if they sided with us against the evil communists.
11/22/2005 02:01:21 PM · #12
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

The U.N. report discussed in the article you cited does not mention Islam as a factor in these "honor killings."


Yeah...neither did the first few articles I read regarding the Paris riots. It would be several days before I read anything that mentioned any relation, or the fact that the youths were muslim.
11/22/2005 02:05:13 PM · #13
So far, every article I've been reading about treatment of women in Islamic law prohibits and condemns mistreatment and abuse.

Do you have any direct references from the Quran or any other documentation that Islamic law condones mistreatment?
11/22/2005 02:14:07 PM · #14
"So far, every article I've been reading about treatment of women in Islamic law prohibits and condemns mistreatment and abuse."

Not talking about Islam, there are plenty of muslims in America, Europe, the world over that would never condone such practices and are as shocked and grotesqued as I am.

But Islam, as commonly practiced in the predominant muslim regions of north africa and the middle-east. This is an all too common practice.
11/22/2005 02:23:10 PM · #15
Originally posted by theSaj:

i myself have some issues with "western culture". But some societies have a basic understanding of human rights (there may be discrepancies, "death penalty", "abortion", etc.) but in general there is an concept of attempting to protect such basic human rights.


It's going to be difficult to discuss the issue of women's human rights with you if you lump abortion in with human rights abuses. Access to health care and reproductive rights in general has more to do with liberating women from these kinds of abuses than any other single factor, and access to safe and legal abortion is central to those reproductive rights. As long as you don't understand this basic fact, I'm afraid it will be impossible to have a rational discussion with you about these issues.

11/22/2005 02:30:06 PM · #16
Suffice it to say that, I -being a Turk and of inquisitive nature- have actually studied for years and am still studying the roots, history, culture(s), sociological and economical progression, etc. of Turks over many thousands of years. However, as I have told Saj before, I won't get into any discussion here with anybody who thinks there's nothing wrong with forming opinions and passing judgement without a shred of knowledge. This thread is -and don't get me wrong, I'm saying this really in an affectionate way- full of shit!. Please stop, if you have nothing to offer other than hearsay, prejudice, stereotypes, judgement based on merely a load of crap, and, well, ignorance.
11/22/2005 02:56:00 PM · #17
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:


It's going to be difficult to discuss the issue of women's human rights with you if you lump abortion in with human rights abuses. Access to health care and reproductive rights in general has more to do with liberating women from these kinds of abuses than any other single factor, and access to safe and legal abortion is central to those reproductive rights. As long as you don't understand this basic fact, I'm afraid it will be impossible to have a rational discussion with you about these issues.


Let's see the first, is an assumptive argument. The second is a dismissal of even an opportunity to discuss for thinking differently.

Both irrational and illogical arguments. I guess you are right, we can't have a rational discussion if you're going to be that blatantly illogical.
11/22/2005 02:59:29 PM · #18
Originally posted by "Tycho":

Please stop, if you have nothing to offer other than hearsay, prejudice, stereotypes, judgement based on merely a load of crap, and, well, ignorance.


Funny...when similar threads are brought up against christian faith...the vast majority of liberals are right there attacking. But when it's brought up against Islam. It's dismissed and left unaddressed and the post is considered merely inflammatory.

But I'm sorry, the events mentioned are not exclusive to Turkey, nor are they exclusive to the poor. But they are common in the middle-east and part of Africa.

My point, is that something needs to change in those cultures. I in fact, believe Turkey's steps toward a secular democracy are very good steps and should be supported and lauded.

And America's steps to end slavery and racism are also very noble. But that does not deny the fact there are still those in America who support the ideals of slavery and racism and act on those beliefs.
11/22/2005 03:27:04 PM · #19
Originally posted by theSaj:



Not talking about Islam,


So why entitle this rant "Islamic law" ?

Turkey's " steps towards a secular government" - Do you know the history of this country's government? I think not!

The insinuation that Turkey is being kept out of the EU because of its faith

"Perhaps....and what is the status of the Kurds? and why? And yes, I politicians are known to never express their real issues. I am sure, when the issue of the Kurds are resolved...there will be another issue of contention that the EU will bring up.

So now you are an expert on the thoughts of Brussels????

I have heard all this before from you, the call to democratise other countries, the need for US principles to be taken to the "poor, raped sodomised, uneducated, unliberated people of the world," and the usual object of your distaste, anything and everything Islamic. I feel I have nothing more to add to this debate that hasn't been said before in threads along a very similar theme.

Please take notice of what Tycho has to say and act upon it!!

Pauline

11/22/2005 03:54:56 PM · #20
"the usual object of your distaste, anything and everything Islamic."

I have friends who are muslim in the United States, I do not see these occurrences by them. There are many muslims in the United States and they do not enact this form of Islamic Law.

There are poor in the United States, and they likewise do not enact such.

The seeming difference is Islamic Law as implemented in the regions of the middle-east and africa.

*****

And yes, I believe action needs to be taken to change that. Just as I believe action needed to be taken against the NAZI regime during the last century.

Do I believe said action needs to be military, not necessarily. But I don't think we can sit back and do nothing and let it continue.

So I am more than open to hearing a revelation as to why Islamic Law is enacted in such a way in these regions. (And not just blame poverty as sometimes these families are not impoverished, and secondly the fact that there are other regions of the world that are greatly impoverished but do not enact such.)

And if you want to think my vendetta is against Islam, go right ahead. It's not. It's against these practices. I derided the Christian terrorist acts in Ireland of past years. They're evil and inexcusable. I make no excuse for those christian claimants who kill doctors at abortion clinics - they're murderers and that's that.

And trust me, I deride the American christian church quite a bit for many of it's actions.

I just want an explanation of why we see things in from these regions that we see no where else? And I am sorry, few regions have EVER had the benefit of wealth that the middle-east has with it's oil. And no, that benefit probably does not get to the masses. And that's part of the point. The region seems in dire need of a renaissance.

*shrug*

11/22/2005 04:02:24 PM · #21
I am no expert on Islamic law however have the following to add...

In a lot of places, not just the middle east and Africa, a rape victim is seen to be somehow at fault for what has happened to them. This view rears its ugly head in western culture as well however the actions taken to resolve the situation are different.

It's taken a long time and the fight still goes on to convince victims and police forces that a rape victim is in no way at fault. Just listen to the defence in rape cases.


11/22/2005 04:05:33 PM · #22
Originally posted by Tycho:

Suffice it to say that, I -being a Turk and of inquisitive nature- have actually studied for years and am still studying the roots, history, culture(s), sociological and economical progression, etc. of Turks over many thousands of years. However, as I have told Saj before, I won't get into any discussion here with anybody who thinks there's nothing wrong with forming opinions and passing judgement without a shred of knowledge. This thread is -and don't get me wrong, I'm saying this really in an affectionate way- full of shit!. Please stop, if you have nothing to offer other than hearsay, prejudice, stereotypes, judgement based on merely a load of crap, and, well, ignorance.


If his assumptions are wrong, why not enlighten him and the rest of us? I admit to knowing very little about Turkey. If you have studied extensively, why not share what you have learned. That would not be a debate--simply state "I have studied and this is what I have learned..."
11/22/2005 05:17:11 PM · #23
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

I am no expert on Islamic law however have the following to add...

In a lot of places, not just the middle east and Africa, a rape victim is seen to be somehow at fault for what has happened to them. This view rears its ugly head in western culture as well however the actions taken to resolve the situation are different.

It's taken a long time and the fight still goes on to convince victims and police forces that a rape victim is in no way at fault. Just listen to the defence in rape cases.


I will grant you that...sadly, I wish I didn't have too. You see it in every celebrity rape or sexual harassment case. Win or lose...the woman will be smeared all over the place.

:(
11/22/2005 05:34:49 PM · #24
Happy to add my thoughts on rape and from a different viewpoint. I find it very upsetting when a female "victim" remains anonymous but the "accused" (usually a man) is identified even when he is proved innocent. He has his reputation shattered forever regardless of the outcome and the malicious woman remains free from public knowledge. There have been quite a few cases recently in the UK when this has happened and I feel it is totally unfair. Perhaps all names should be kept in camera until a verdict is decided and then if proven guity the name can be revealed of the guilty party
P.
11/22/2005 05:41:40 PM · #25
Good grief... Did someone stand out in the sun too long without their hat on. It is a quantum leap to suggest that abominations of this ilk are somewhat linked to, or reflective of, Islamic law.

It would be akin to having a thread on the Catholic church and limiting your discussion to acts of pedophelia.

The mere fact that individuals belong to a particular religion is not to be confused with that religion's basic tenet.

When dealing with issues of this nature, we might be best served by conducting in-depth research as to the root cause of such behaviour, rather than simply pointing an accusing finger at religions and races.

Ray
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