New averages - DPChallenge Forums

10/25/2005 12:44:23 PM · #1

I suggested this in one of the threads for the What? challenge, but this might be a more appropriate place.

I think it would be useful to have an "Entrant's Average" and a "Non-entrant's Average" for the challenge photos (to be computed after the challenge, of course). To be more clear, the scores given to a photo by those who also entered the challenge would be averaged, as well as the scores given by those who did not enter the challenge.

This may help us to see if there's anything going on with people handing out lower scores because they want their own photo to do well. (It was postulated in one of the threads that this might be the case and that people who enter a challenge should not be allowed to vote in that challenge, but I think this may be a better solution.)

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/25/2005 01:02:26 PM · #2

I'm not sure how much you'd be able to infer from the stats. If you posted voting averages for left-handed vs. right-handed people, they'd probably be different (perhaps significantly). All you could say for sure is that it's two groups of people with different opinions.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

10/25/2005 01:09:24 PM · #3

I second the suggestion. That average tells me more than "Camera" versus "non camera". And it's not an arbitrary population statistic like left and right handed. It's actually a simple automatic "system working" check, such as one would do in a quality assurance effort.

Shannon, if what you say is correct, then you wouldn't see a difference between entrants and nonentrants, and that would be good. But we won't know without the statistic. (See the other thread for Eddy's anaylsis which shows that there IS a difference historically between these two groups.)

10/25/2005 01:17:51 PM · #4

Originally posted by nshapiro:

That's the goal exactly. And if entrants and nonentrants do vote the same way, then we can finally put this debate to bed. But if it does show a statistically significant difference, well, I guess we'll have more discussion on the best way to deal with this.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/25/2005 01:20:55 PM · #5

Oh, I have no doubt that there's a difference, but I don't think you can fairly infer that someone is voting others low to improve his own score. I think the challenge participants might reasonably be more critical because they've put more thought into the challenge and "experienced" it. They could have formed a narrower idea of what fits the challenge and may be more critical of "easy" approaches on the technique challenges. I do agree that it's more meaningful than the "no camera" statistic, but not much. I'm only saying that you couldn't necessarily point to a .8 voting difference and cry foul.

Message edited by author 2005-10-25 13:24:23.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

10/25/2005 01:30:29 PM · #6

Statistically, I don't think we will be able to conclude anything in a particular challenge since we won't have standard deviations and thus no measure of what constitutes a significant difference.

But it will allow us to more easily analyze data across challenges. Using the averages across challenges, you will be able to compute variance and will be able to do some inferential statistics when there's enough data.

10/25/2005 01:32:14 PM · #7

Has is ever been suggested that if you enter the challenge then you can't vote on that challenge, just leave comments? There are two open challenges and you can only enter one. Maybe there could be two member challenges and you enter one, vote on the other. The same could go for the open challenges.

10/25/2005 02:22:39 PM · #8

Originally posted by mandyturner:

I've seen the "no voting" suggestion, but not the "no vote, but can leave comments" one. That may be a good compromise. My only concern in the case where you can only vote on one challenge is that there will not be a large enough number of votes placed. But I guess that was the case when this site first started, and all worked out well.

I just wish we had a way of knowing what is going on here, if there's anything going on here. I don't think a .8 difference would really be statistically significant here , but if the difference were 2 points or more, perhaps it could be considered as such.

paul58

Fujifilm FinePix S5100

10/25/2005 02:53:20 PM · #9

I know for myself that, between working, other "duties", and a relatively slow dial-up internet connection, I don't usually even have time to vote on every single entry in one challenge each week. And, although I am fairly confident that I would try to vote very concienciously so as to not favor my own entry, I prefer to not vote on a challenge that I have entered, just to make sure that I can judge in an unbiased way.

Panasonic DMW-LTZ10 1.5x Teleconverter

10/25/2005 03:08:07 PM · #10

Originally posted by mandyturner:

I think that this would be great to try for one week and see how it goes. I think that we would get plenty of votes. We would enter one challenge and vote on the other. If you didn't enter, you could vote on both.

KiwiShotz

Panasonic DMC-FZ20

10/25/2005 03:13:00 PM · #11

I actually like the suggestion, but it's maybe not that complex. I'm sure the administrators can easily get a sorted dump of everyone's average vote. Those figures are already on our individual home pages.

The median score available for voting is 5.5 so any wild deviations from that, say 1.5 or more is worthy of a look and monitoring.

There is almost certainly some skulduggery going on where a ribbon-winning image is given 1's. There is no explanation for that except malice.

Brett

10/25/2005 03:18:16 PM · #12

I have seen many amazing pictures that rec scores below 4 that shouldn't have. Maybe this would stop the trolls. One voter giving low scores for spite isn't a big deal, but I think there are many that do this. I think that if you weren't competing against the pictures you are voting on the results would be more honest and true to the challenge.

sabphoto

Samsung Galaxy S8/S8+

10/25/2005 03:25:52 PM · #13

A long time ago someone else suggested that we should have two challenges and you can only vote on the one you don't enter. I really think this is a cool idea but I don't really think it is going to make a difference in how a member scores overall.

Face it, a good pictures wins overall. I have yet to see a picture that failed in comparison to the others and ended up winning because someone with duplicate accounts is voting everyone else down and his own up. Any WHY would you want to anyway, just to win a VIRTUAL ribbon? Don't get me wrong it would be cool to have your picture displayed on the front page (heck I'd settle for the first 10 pages) but how silly is it to assume someone that shoots a below par image can get enough people or accounts to over write everyone elses votes.

This isn't a 2 million dollar prize people, if and when you shoot a photograph that people feel deserves first place you will most likely get it, there are bigger things in life to worry about...like if we all know what the challenge details actual are trying to say instead of what is written. ;p

Message edited by author 2005-10-25 15:26:47.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/25/2005 03:31:31 PM · #14

I think that it would make a difference. I am not saying that I don't feel that the winners shouldn't have won, I feel that some entries should be rec better scores. There are way too many great pictures getting 5 averages.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

10/25/2005 03:47:54 PM · #15

Originally posted by mandyturner:

Has is ever been suggested that if you enter the challenge then you can't vote on that challenge, just leave comments?

I would much prefer to have scores/comments hidden until a user clicks an "I've finished voting" button. They could still leave comments after clicking the button, but they couldn't change their vote. This would also encourage the "dead-beat" participants (those who enter but never vote) to actually vote if they wanted to see their score, since the "I've finished voting" button wouldn't be available until you reached the 20% minimum and 24 hours had elapsed since the challenge began (which would help to quell all the inane repliues from people who post their score after only a few votes.)

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

10/25/2005 03:53:16 PM · #16

Originally posted by EddyG:

Originally posted by mandyturner:
Has is ever been suggested that if you enter the challenge then you can't vote on that challenge, just leave comments?

I would much prefer to have scores/comments hidden until a user clicks an "I've finished voting" button. They could still leave comments after clicking the button, but they couldn't change their vote. This would also encourage the "dead-beat" participants (those who enter but never vote) to actually vote if they wanted to see their score, since the "I've finished voting" button wouldn't be available until you reached the 20% minimum and 24 hours had elapsed since the challenge began (which would help to quell all the inane repliues from people who post their score after only a few votes.)

That sounds like a good idea but I think it would create the situation where some voters will rush through and vote 20% so they can see the score. if then it's locked they will never be able to finish voting or change a rushed vote.

robs

Canon EOS R6 Mk II

10/25/2005 04:19:36 PM · #17

Not sure it would be telling at the photo level but at the profile level breaking the average vote cast into 2 buckets - when a person entered and when they did not might show something.

I don't see any use for the with or without camera's since almost certainly the have nots do and just didn't update it. I suspect the have nots is small so that it does not matter much anyway (no idea).