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11/11/2002 09:01:29 AM · #1 |
As one who has watched his score tumble into the depths during the weeklong voting process, I thought more than once that it would be merciful to allow a submission to be witdrawn up until the final bell for scoring.
For instance, my image last week was less than great, and I thought I was going to die watching my score approach a 4.0. It would have been so nice to be able to "throw in the towel" after seeing the disturbing trend.
Anyone else have thoughts?
mjc
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11/11/2002 09:03:55 AM · #2 |
| Yeah that would be nice. Rather than letting everyone re-hash the same issue they have with your image. |
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11/11/2002 09:07:25 AM · #3 |
I do not agree with that ... do not read the comments, do not look at the score.
I do ont see any reason to really remove it. For what ? To have only 'nice score' in the profile ? |
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11/11/2002 09:19:47 AM · #4 |
Doing this would be a bit like taking your ball home because you're losing.
Sorry, but my opinion is that once you're in - you're in. You had plenty of time to withdraw before the deadline.
If you don't accept bad scores and constructive criticism you will never improve, which is the whole point of entering for me.
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11/11/2002 09:21:06 AM · #5 |
| For the same reasons that teachers dont declare everyone's test scores out loud in class. If you submitted something you aren't exactly proud of why should you have to share your score with the rest of the world? |
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11/11/2002 09:27:01 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by BigSmiles:
For the same reasons that teachers dont declare everyone's test scores out loud in class. If you submitted something you aren't exactly proud of why should you have to share your score with the rest of the world?
This is an issue in it's own... why would anyone submit something that they were not proud of? Just so they can have a photo it?
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11/11/2002 09:31:41 AM · #7 |
Personally I dont submit things I"m not proud of. I do submit things that are below par for what I like to think are my skills. I'm not saying I'm gonna retract any of my images if they get a bad score but I can see how others would like to do so.
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11/11/2002 09:35:21 AM · #8 |
I think a lot of people just submit photos so that they can participate. I also think a lot of people are just doing it for pure and simple fun as well. I like pure and simple fun just as much as the next guy :)
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11/11/2002 10:10:00 AM · #9 |
As far as submitting images that one is not proud of...
Well, generally, I take great pride in my work. This last image, though, I liked okay as I was submitting, but really had no high expectations for. In fact, I had not planned on submitting at all. But, this particular photo seemed to fit, loosely, and it was not really a bad photo, considering the illusion of flame that it created.
(The flame is actually a fan blowing on an illuminated piece of fabric.) And, I did need to submit *something* in order to get "back in the swing" of the challeneges.
But, as the points started dropping away, I got more and more upset with the image, and began to think that it would be nice to "forfeit." No harm to anyone else, just a quiet admission that the image was not of great quality, and that I would prefer to not have it dragged through the mud anymore. Put it out of its misery, as it were.
One reply in this thread implied that the intent on withdrawal would be to eliminate bad ratings from your profile. I suppose you could address that by forcing all submissions to be reflected on the profile, with the score, or noted with "forfeit". All images forfeited could be frozen at time of forfeiture, with a zero score for average vote tabulation (this would definitely make you think about forfeiting), and no further commentary allowed, with the exception of the final forfeiture comment.
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11/11/2002 10:23:00 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by bod:
Doing this would be a bit like taking your ball home because you're losing.
A little bit, except everybody else still gets to play. As I say, a personal forfeiture is not necessarily the strongest thing to do, personally, but it does allow for the salvage of one's self-confidence without harming anyone else's opportunities for excellence. And, in reality, we want people feel comfortable submitting, don't we? I mean participation is really the foundation of what we do here, right?
Sorry, but my opinion is that once you're in - you're in. You had plenty of time to withdraw before the deadline.
"Plenty of time" is a little subjective, I would say. As a guy who puts in between 45-50 hours a week actually at his office, and then another 15-18 hours in commuting, it's frankly quite a feat for me to shoot and submit at all, much less spend the obvious time that some of the folks here do prepping their submissions.
If you want to extend the challenge period to two weeks, then we can talk about having plenty of time.
mjc
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11/11/2002 10:30:28 AM · #11 |
I can't agree with an option that lets you remove your entry. Once you've submitted your picture, that's it IMO. Hopefully, when a picture is doing poorly, it is a learning experience. You learn from your mistakes from comments received and simply from reflecting on your photo. Removing photos would also skew your average score.
I?m sure the administrators would remove a picture if you had a valid reason, i.e. you submit a picture of your naked wife and she is threatening divorce. Haha!
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11/11/2002 10:37:58 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Jacko:
I?m sure the administrators would remove a picture if you had a valid reason, i.e. you submit a picture of your naked wife and she is threatening divorce. Haha!
Actually, that brings about an interesting strategy. You could always recommend disqualification of your own photo, and then "not be able to produce" the original EXIF-inclusive image.
mjc
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11/11/2002 10:44:10 AM · #13 |
There actually is a compromise here that already exists... If you go to your profile, you can turn off YOUR ability to see your score during the week. Everyone else still gets to vote on it, but you don't have to suffer every hour :)
To remove a shot from the voting after the vote starts would be unfair to anyone that is obsessively competitive. There is an "average score" listed in your profile and the ability to pull a shot that isn't doing well would skew that number :) Personally, I don't know my average (and for obvious reasons, I don't WANT to :) ) but there may be someone with everyone's average in a spreadsheet, hoping to "win" :) |
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11/11/2002 11:03:50 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
There actually is a compromise here that already exists... If you go to your profile, you can turn off YOUR ability to see your score during the week. Everyone else still gets to vote on it, but you don't have to suffer every hour :)
Very good idea. If I were that self-confident, perhaps I would even do this myself :)
To remove a shot from the voting after the vote starts would be unfair to anyone that is obsessively competitive. There is an "average score" listed in your profile and the ability to pull a shot that isn't doing well would skew that number :)
Now this I understand. Which is why I suggest that a forfeited image not be "removed" from your profile, per se, but entered into a forfeited state, wherein the effective score for your photo is 0.0 for purposes of your average score and for other tabulation, and the actual score you received by the time of forfeiture is not available at all. For those fiercely competitive, this would only elevate their apparent standing. For those doing the forfeiting, there would be a strong (score of zero!) deterrent to forfeiting.
mjc
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11/11/2002 11:07:20 AM · #15 |
I have been there before.. wanting to pull my submission.. But it taught me a valuable lesson. The folks in this thread have already said it... submit what you are proud of. But I think there is another reason to submit.. experience and getting comments. Only this can help you to gain an image you are proud of.
I submitted to Macro.. I have never done macro before. I am a people person. It was fun to try. This week I am not interested in the score so much as the opportunity to learn. So, I am hoping for at least one insightful comment.
:0)
Keep shooting, and have fun, too!
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11/11/2002 11:09:39 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mjcecil:
Originally posted by bod:
[i]Doing this would be a bit like taking your ball home because you're losing.
A little bit, except everybody else still gets to play. As I say, a personal forfeiture is not necessarily the strongest thing to do, personally, but it does allow for the salvage of one's self-confidence without harming anyone else's opportunities for excellence. And, in reality, we want people feel comfortable submitting, don't we? I mean participation is really the foundation of what we do here, right?[/i]
True - but there's still an element of 'stomping off home because I'm losing' to it. I also think a forfeit button would be too much of a temptation - it would be all too easy to have a bad day, hit the button, and then regret it for the rest of the week.
Sorry, but my opinion is that once you're in - you're in. You had plenty of time to withdraw before the deadline.
"Plenty of time" is a little subjective, I would say. As a guy who puts in between 45-50 hours a week actually at his office, and then another 15-18 hours in commuting, it's frankly quite a feat for me to shoot and submit at all, much less spend the obvious time that some of the folks here do prepping their submissions.
Okay, I'll withdraw that bit. I did mean the few hours/days between submitting and the deadline, but I can appreciate that some people have little time to submit before the last minute.
For me there are 3 reasons to enter here: To learn, to have fun and to score points - in that order.
The main purpose of the score is to keep you coming back to the site throughout the week, which in turn keeps the forums lively.
If you really were so disappointed you could just stop checking your score.
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11/11/2002 12:35:17 PM · #17 |
I think your photography skills are way better then ours, so I think you are being a bit harsh when you say that. It must be nice to have people comment on your photos you put in the forum. When someone else does they don't get the attention you get. I find that unfair.
I know from exsperience!
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by BigSmiles:
[i]For the same reasons that teachers dont declare everyone's test scores out loud in class. If you submitted something you aren't exactly proud of why should you have to share your score with the rest of the world?
This is an issue in it's own... why would anyone submit something that they were not proud of? Just so they can have a photo it?
[/i]
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11/11/2002 01:13:40 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by mjcecil:
Actually, that brings about an interesting strategy. You could always recommend disqualification of your own photo, and then "not be able to produce" the original EXIF-inclusive image.
This strategy has two holes... 1) Your reason for disqualification must be a valid one. That is, you can't just say, 'disqualify this!'. 2) Since you can't vote on your own image, you can't recommend your own image for disqualification. Logging into another account to do so would be in violation of site rules, and your account would be suspended.
We don't allow people to request removal of their own images. Doing so would allow anyone who had a score they didn't like to have that permenantly removed from the results and their profile, which would be unfair to the other challenge participants as well as the voters and commenters.
Drew |
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11/11/2002 01:40:39 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Doing so would allow anyone who had a score they didn't like to have that permenantly removed from the results and their profile, which would be unfair to the other challenge participants as well as the voters and commenters.
huh? how is removing a shot unfair to other participants?
1) there's no reward for overall scoring
2) removing any shot from competition only improves chances for others
3) fairness to commenters? i don't even know what that means
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11/11/2002 01:58:34 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by spiderman:
3) fairness to commenters? i don't even know what that means
If 10-20 people take the time to write a comment on a photo, and then it just vanishes, it's a waste of their time and effort -- which could have been put towards another picture instead.
This effect would be accentuated if people start doing what we're always crying for -- commenting on the low-scoring pictures to offer those folks the most help and advice.
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/11/2002 2:13:06 PM. |
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11/11/2002 02:23:04 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by spiderman:
huh? how is removing a shot unfair to other participants?
1) there's no reward for overall scoring
So then why worry about it? Think about your submission before posting, and once you do, have fun with it..
It's all a learning experience.. Think positively. You can only gain by any submission and experience.
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11/11/2002 02:27:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by spiderman:
[i]3) fairness to commenters? i don't even know what that means
If 10-20 people take the time to write a comment on a photo, and then it just vanishes, it's a waste of their time and effort -- which could have been put towards another picture instead.
This effect would be accentuated if people start doing what we're always crying for -- commenting on the low-scoring pictures to offer those folks the most help and advice[/i]
Actually, this is exactly why I suggest NOT removing the photo, but freezing the comments and scoring for it, and marking it as forfeited. This will allow those comments that WERE made to not be in vain, and will prevent other folks from wasting their valuable time commenting on it further. The forfeiting party should be required to submit a single explanatory comment, to be posted with the other comments, explaining his/her reason for forfeiture.
Perhaps after scoring has completed, a forfeited photo could be "unlocked" to allow post-challenge discussion. Though it seems that such discussions rarely happen on low-or-mid-rated photos.
mjc
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11/11/2002 02:31:43 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by bod:
If you really were so disappointed you could just stop checking your score.
Which, of course, I did. I would have just as soon removed the photo from consideration, though.
mjc
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11/11/2002 02:42:10 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Karen Bryan:
Originally posted by spiderman:
[i]huh? how is removing a shot unfair to other participants?
1) there's no reward for overall scoring
So then why worry about it? Think about your submission before posting, and once you do, have fun with it..
It's all a learning experience.. Think positively. You can only gain by any submission and experience.
[/i]
I think it goes both ways... If it's just a bunch of fun anyway, and scoring really means very little, then what difference does it make to everybody else if a guy gets disappointed with his own submission, and chooses to withdraw it?
We are trying to *encourage* people to submit to challenges, yes? It's hard for some folks to feel good about submitting again if they get nice and beaten up over a photo. The forfeit option would allow people
to nip that feeling in the bud. (How many times does a guy have to hear "this doesn't really meet the challenge," before he throws up his arms and yells "I get it!" in disgust.)
Either way, I expect this week's challenge to be much better for me.
mjc
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11/11/2002 04:55:09 PM · #25 |
| Folks...my thinking is this....if your image wasn't to your own premium standards...but you submitted it anyways for the sake of submitting an image....then you got to live with the score. Can't pull it off as far as I am concerned. |
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